Hi, I'm a new boat owner of a 1982 27' foot Hunter. I'm guessing my sanitation system is not set up correctly. When the valve for the seawater intake for flushing is open, the toilet sometimes overflows while sailing. It even sometimes is filled to the brim while at dock. It doesn't seem right to me that I would have to pull up a cushion, remove a hatch, open and close the valve everytime someone wants to use the head. Should there be some sort of a check valve? In addtion, when the holding tank is geting full, it wil sometimes back up through the toilet. Any suggestions appreciated! Don
sea water flooding toilet
- Thread starter H2Odreamer
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2 Things
Don, Your head should have a Joker Valve - similar to a check valve located just before the head pump. Also, you should have an anti-siphon valve somewhere in the intake line to avoid accidential overflow- very important because if the toilet fills with seawater...it may keep going till your boat sinks! Your head pump is also probally leaking as well causing seawater to pass through. Empty your tank and it won't back-up. Rob
Don, Your head should have a Joker Valve - similar to a check valve located just before the head pump. Also, you should have an anti-siphon valve somewhere in the intake line to avoid accidential overflow- very important because if the toilet fills with seawater...it may keep going till your boat sinks! Your head pump is also probally leaking as well causing seawater to pass through. Empty your tank and it won't back-up. Rob
anti-siphon
Don My head was working fine except for a small leak around the plunger handle packing. I figured why not rebuild the whole thing as preventitive maintenace and purchased a rebuild kit from sailnet. After rebuilding the head it now fills with seawatersame as yours!It seems it was just good fortune that the small flapper valve that opens/closes when you flip the lever from wet flush to dry flush was sealing completely and holding back seawater from siphoning through the intake. Having no idea this was what was going on I used to leave the intake seacock OPEN ALL THE TIME when I left the boat. Boy did I get lucky, I could have sunk the boat! After the rebuild I put a post up for Peggy the Head Mistress and she indicated the problem is no anti-siphon loop on the intake line. I have not yet installed one but believe that to be the resolution to my problem. For now I am careful to open and close the seacock for each use. ps-if you opt to rebuild your head be aware it is one stinky ordeal! if I have to do it again I will just buy a new head! chris
Don My head was working fine except for a small leak around the plunger handle packing. I figured why not rebuild the whole thing as preventitive maintenace and purchased a rebuild kit from sailnet. After rebuilding the head it now fills with seawatersame as yours!It seems it was just good fortune that the small flapper valve that opens/closes when you flip the lever from wet flush to dry flush was sealing completely and holding back seawater from siphoning through the intake. Having no idea this was what was going on I used to leave the intake seacock OPEN ALL THE TIME when I left the boat. Boy did I get lucky, I could have sunk the boat! After the rebuild I put a post up for Peggy the Head Mistress and she indicated the problem is no anti-siphon loop on the intake line. I have not yet installed one but believe that to be the resolution to my problem. For now I am careful to open and close the seacock for each use. ps-if you opt to rebuild your head be aware it is one stinky ordeal! if I have to do it again I will just buy a new head! chris
More than just two things...
Flush water filling the bowl: All manual marine toilets have a lever or knob that operates a "wet/dry" valve in the pump...in the wet mode, pumping brings in flush water and pushes bowl contents out when you pump...in the dry mode, the flow of flush water is blocked. That lever should always be left in the "dry" position except when using the toilet. If the bowl fills when the lever is in the dry mode, that valve has failed and must be replaced (depending on the make/model/age of your toilet, you may be better off replacing the whole toilet). But whether or not that valve has failed, all manual toilets that are below the waterline should have a vented loop installed in the head intake (something that's the owner's responsibility, not the toilet mfr's) to prevent flush water from rising in the bowl if the wet/dry valve is accidentally left open OR in the event the valve fails. The loop should be at least 8-12" above waterline at any angle of heel, and should go between the pump and the bowl, NOT between the thru-hull and the pump...if you put it between the thru-hull and the pump, it will prevent the pump from priming. However, while a loop will prevent flush wate from filling the bowl while the boat is sitting, it will not keep the bowl from filling while you're underway, heeling on the same tack as the head intake thru-hull if the wet/dry valve is left open or has failed. Whether there's a vented loop in the line or not, be sure close ALL seacocks before leaving the boat...open thru-hulls while no one is aboard is the #1 cause of boats sinking in their slips. Waste backing up from the tank could be due to several reasons: If it happens when the boat is sitting, your tank vent may be blocked, causing the tank to become pressurized. Tank vents must be kept clear. If it only happens the inlet fitting on the tank is outboard on the tank, when you're heeled even a half-full tank can spill into the head discharge line and run back toward the toilet. Rob mentioned the joker valve--a one way valve in the head discharge fitting (not ahead of the pump, but coming OUT of it)...it's rubber "cup" that has a slit and "lips", and should be replaced at least every two years because over time, waste going through it stretches the slit till it can no longer close. However, joker valves are only supposed to block a flood, not slow seepage...so even a new one won't prevent some waste from getting into the bowl if you're on the same tack for hours. So in addition to replacing the joker valve, there are two ways to solve the problem: 1. A loop in the head discharge line that's at least 4-6" above waterline at maximum heel...it doesn't have to be a vented loop, just a "hill" higher than waste from the tank can climb over. 2. Move the inlet fitting (not nearly as hard to do as you might think) to the other side of the tank--away from the hull, to side closest the centerline of the boat so waste runs away from it when you're heeled. The vent fitting on the tank should also be away from the hull, toward the centerline of the boat, to prevent waste from spilling out the vent--which can result in a clogged vent--while heeled. As or whether to rebuild or replace your toilet...that depends on the make/model/age...'cuz the rebuild kit can cost you more than half the price of some toilets and still won't solve all your problems. I suggest that all three of you check out the link below to learn how marine toilets work, and how to prevent 99% of problems.
Flush water filling the bowl: All manual marine toilets have a lever or knob that operates a "wet/dry" valve in the pump...in the wet mode, pumping brings in flush water and pushes bowl contents out when you pump...in the dry mode, the flow of flush water is blocked. That lever should always be left in the "dry" position except when using the toilet. If the bowl fills when the lever is in the dry mode, that valve has failed and must be replaced (depending on the make/model/age of your toilet, you may be better off replacing the whole toilet). But whether or not that valve has failed, all manual toilets that are below the waterline should have a vented loop installed in the head intake (something that's the owner's responsibility, not the toilet mfr's) to prevent flush water from rising in the bowl if the wet/dry valve is accidentally left open OR in the event the valve fails. The loop should be at least 8-12" above waterline at any angle of heel, and should go between the pump and the bowl, NOT between the thru-hull and the pump...if you put it between the thru-hull and the pump, it will prevent the pump from priming. However, while a loop will prevent flush wate from filling the bowl while the boat is sitting, it will not keep the bowl from filling while you're underway, heeling on the same tack as the head intake thru-hull if the wet/dry valve is left open or has failed. Whether there's a vented loop in the line or not, be sure close ALL seacocks before leaving the boat...open thru-hulls while no one is aboard is the #1 cause of boats sinking in their slips. Waste backing up from the tank could be due to several reasons: If it happens when the boat is sitting, your tank vent may be blocked, causing the tank to become pressurized. Tank vents must be kept clear. If it only happens the inlet fitting on the tank is outboard on the tank, when you're heeled even a half-full tank can spill into the head discharge line and run back toward the toilet. Rob mentioned the joker valve--a one way valve in the head discharge fitting (not ahead of the pump, but coming OUT of it)...it's rubber "cup" that has a slit and "lips", and should be replaced at least every two years because over time, waste going through it stretches the slit till it can no longer close. However, joker valves are only supposed to block a flood, not slow seepage...so even a new one won't prevent some waste from getting into the bowl if you're on the same tack for hours. So in addition to replacing the joker valve, there are two ways to solve the problem: 1. A loop in the head discharge line that's at least 4-6" above waterline at maximum heel...it doesn't have to be a vented loop, just a "hill" higher than waste from the tank can climb over. 2. Move the inlet fitting (not nearly as hard to do as you might think) to the other side of the tank--away from the hull, to side closest the centerline of the boat so waste runs away from it when you're heeled. The vent fitting on the tank should also be away from the hull, toward the centerline of the boat, to prevent waste from spilling out the vent--which can result in a clogged vent--while heeled. As or whether to rebuild or replace your toilet...that depends on the make/model/age...'cuz the rebuild kit can cost you more than half the price of some toilets and still won't solve all your problems. I suggest that all three of you check out the link below to learn how marine toilets work, and how to prevent 99% of problems.
Rebuilding a toilet doesn't have to be stinky job
For that matter, neither does replacing hoses. Before rebuild the toilet, run a LOT of clean fresh water and white vinegar through the system first. Disconnect the head intake line from the thru-hull (close the seacock first!) and stick in it a bucket of clean fresh water heavily laced with vinegar...2-3 bucketfuls should do it. Before replacing hoses, pump out and THOROUGHLY rinse out the tank...and don't forget to run plenty of water through the macerator after the tank is clean. Then flush gallons of water and white vinegar down the toilet and either pump out or dump that. I was in Tampa just last month on a trouble-shooting job on a 50' trawler...helped the owner replace hoses while I was there. Because we took the time to clean out the system first, the hoses we took out smelled FAR worse than the water that spilled into the pans we put under 'em. Rebuilding a toilet or replacing hoses is no different from most other jobs--the better the prep, the better and easier the job.
For that matter, neither does replacing hoses. Before rebuild the toilet, run a LOT of clean fresh water and white vinegar through the system first. Disconnect the head intake line from the thru-hull (close the seacock first!) and stick in it a bucket of clean fresh water heavily laced with vinegar...2-3 bucketfuls should do it. Before replacing hoses, pump out and THOROUGHLY rinse out the tank...and don't forget to run plenty of water through the macerator after the tank is clean. Then flush gallons of water and white vinegar down the toilet and either pump out or dump that. I was in Tampa just last month on a trouble-shooting job on a 50' trawler...helped the owner replace hoses while I was there. Because we took the time to clean out the system first, the hoses we took out smelled FAR worse than the water that spilled into the pans we put under 'em. Rebuilding a toilet or replacing hoses is no different from most other jobs--the better the prep, the better and easier the job.
Thanks Rob, Chris, Peggie
Thanks All, I see I've stumbled onto a helpful, friendly community. Most sailor's I've met seem to be enjoying life. I had no idea it was so critical to to have the wet/dry lever in the dry postion. I'll have to see if this solves one of the problems. Head-Mistress, on the issue of a vent loop installation. I don't see how your instructions are possible. It looks like my manual hand pump is a part of the toilet so I don't see how I could follow the instructions for palcing a vent loop inbetween them. On the other problems, I'll try following the link & come back only if I don't solve the problems. Don
Thanks All, I see I've stumbled onto a helpful, friendly community. Most sailor's I've met seem to be enjoying life. I had no idea it was so critical to to have the wet/dry lever in the dry postion. I'll have to see if this solves one of the problems. Head-Mistress, on the issue of a vent loop installation. I don't see how your instructions are possible. It looks like my manual hand pump is a part of the toilet so I don't see how I could follow the instructions for palcing a vent loop inbetween them. On the other problems, I'll try following the link & come back only if I don't solve the problems. Don
Take another look at your toilet...
You'll find that there's a short piece of hose coming off the top of the pump that goes to the fitting on the back of the bowl. Installing the vented loop requires removing that hose. The drawing on the second page of the Jabsco manual toilet installation instructions here http://www.jabsco.com/prodInfo/overview/29090-2000_ev.pdf shows where the vented loop goes...but it doesn't matter whether your toilet is a Jabsco, 'cuz the flush water inlet from the pump to the bowl is the same on all manual toilets that cost less than about $800--toilets that are highly unlikely to be on a 27' Hunter.
You'll find that there's a short piece of hose coming off the top of the pump that goes to the fitting on the back of the bowl. Installing the vented loop requires removing that hose. The drawing on the second page of the Jabsco manual toilet installation instructions here http://www.jabsco.com/prodInfo/overview/29090-2000_ev.pdf shows where the vented loop goes...but it doesn't matter whether your toilet is a Jabsco, 'cuz the flush water inlet from the pump to the bowl is the same on all manual toilets that cost less than about $800--toilets that are highly unlikely to be on a 27' Hunter.
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