Saving Money

[tom]

Dan I like your attitude

no one likes to pay a lot for more than they need. For your sailboat on a lake you are limited in the amount of trouble that you can get into. But on a larger boat in the ocean you must be able to trust your gear. We didn't measure the force but this weekend my wife was unable to winch in our genoa using a two speed winch. If that sheet broke under those conditions it could be bad. You'll find that sailors in general are a frugal lot and don't waste money.  On the other hand on a twenty three footer the most important thing for a mainsheet is that it run smoothly and be comfortable on the hands. Any line that is large enough to be comfortable probably exceeds the strength requirements many times. Keep the attitude just don't be stupid and get hurt.

 

[Dan McGuire]

Give the other Sailors more Credit

I have been accused of a lot of things, but irresponsibility is not usually one of them. With the standard you have proposed, many of the listings in the forum should not appear, because someone might blindly follow and use the advice on a much bigger or otherwise different boat. I think you should give more credit to the other sailors, even the novices.  Mentally when I was deciding whether to use the line, I did a Worst Case Analysis (WCA). Engineers use a WCA to examine whether, if a number of reasonably possible events occur at the same time, could they conspire to create conditions, which might result in a failure. My thought process went like this: The main sheet is apparently the line which receives the most strain based on recommended line sizes in Western Marine, etc. Therefore I do not need to perform a WCA on anything but the main sheet. My main sail is approximately 100 sq ft. With a thirty knot wind, it is possible to get about four pounds of force per square foot of sail. Granted it is possible, that I might get caught in greater than a thirt knot wind, but I would reef or ease the main. So I might get 400 pounds of force on that sail. Most likely If I get a 30 knot wind, the boat will heal and it will end up dumping most of the force, but this is a WCA. If somehow all of that is concentrated on the sheets, I can get 400 pounds of force on the main sheet. Realistically that is not going to happen. Most of the force will actually be on the mast. In combination with that I might get a boom swing. The boom probably weighs less than 10 pounds and the sail weighs probably about five pounds for a total of fifteen pounds. If the entire force is concentrated on the sheet and the jerk amplifies the force by a factor of ten I get about 150 pounds of force. If I add that to the force on the sail, I get about 550 pounds of force. Now my sheet is rigged such that there are four lines running from the boom to the hull. So actually if the force is distributed, the force is only about one quarter of the 550 pounds, but it is possible that a line hangs up in a block and a single line absorbs the whole shock, therefore it is better if the line will handle the entire 550 pounds. I believe the line I am using will handle at least 1000 pounds, so it is more than adequate. The other side of the equation is whether I really want the line to be that strong. I doubt that the hull itself, will stand a 1000 pounds lifting strain at the sheet anchor points. A good argument could be made that the line is too strong. In the event of a failure I would prefer a failure of the line or anchor point rather than the hull.I will make no more responses on this subject. If I haven't convinced you by now that I am not a complete idiot, then more postings will not help.

 

[Warren]

"CHEAP ROPE"

Read John Dawson's reply....He is right!!!!There are many places one can save $$$....But don't do it when it comes to line or for that matter anything that has to do with safety as yours or a loved ones life may depend on it.

 

[John Dawson]

Line of reasoning

That you analyzed your usage and determined that poly would be suitable is great. What bothered me about the post was not the poly or your (unstated) logic, but that the original post appears to simply advocate cheaper substitutes unconditionally to unknown readers.

 

[Steve Dion]

Poly does not age very well.

Dan:Poly line does not age very well in the sun. You could purchase something like Sta-set and it will be there in 15-20 years. Poly line will only last for 1-2 years (maybe less). The economics of a purchase has to do with the cost over the life of the product. It is like that ad. says "pay me now, or pay me later". Hope this does not offend you!

 

[Alan]

..is a great idea.....and you can do it with the right line as well. I've replaced my running rigging mostly with spectra, but I bought it on ebay and saved a ton of money. 110' spectra halyards, for example, cost me about $50 each. When I go aloft, I know that halyard is going to hold. All the other Wal-Mart stuff is a great idea but not the line. By the way, how can you get proper halyard tension with that strechy stuff? And when the wind increases and you need a tighter luff, it only gets looser.

 

[Thomas Akin]

poly rope and age

I am not expert but I have some experiance with the poly line. I inherited a day sailer from my stepdad. It had some poly line, about 10 years old. It was 3/8 line and was exposed to sunlight for those 10 years. It was possible to bend it in your hands a few times and the break it. It practicly powdered. Poly line had little UV resistance. It's life expectancy is about 3 or 4 years max before it is suspect. The original cordage, probably 26 years old, was fine. It was also stored inside sail bags which probably helped. The poly was not. In many ways, you get what you pay for. I'll pony up the cash for the good line.

 

[Dan Metzler]

I'm that guy

...I'm the guy who doesn't own a boat yet. I'm the guy who's read every thing he can get his hands on for years. I'm the guy who looks at these forums almost every day. I'm the guy who values the opionions of every sailor who takes the time to express them. I won't own a sailboat for another two months, so I don't know much (that's why I love this place!) but I do know that even I, I who really doesn't know much, understands the Spirit of Dan McGuires post. We should give him some credit.It's too bad he was ridiculed to the point of no longer posting, as this thread has taught me much already, and we should value a different way of looking at things I think, and the thoughtful discussion that it will provoke.I'm not saying he is either right or wrong, I don't know enough about it myself to make that decision, but I know that I don't need to be protected from what some would say is bad advice because I am a novice. I'll take it all and sort it out myself.There are some on this board who I read everything they write, not because I believe they have all the answers, but more because of their thoughtful, respectful approach to their posts.I hope we haven't lost Dan McGuire's input, no matter what the facts, it would be a loss to those of us who are just trying to absorb.Thank you, Dan Metzler

 

[Dan McGuire]

Still Posting

I have posted several inputs to several other subjects. I am a big boy and can take the criticism, but the arguments were getting repetitive and pointless. I appreciate your support and I suspect that there are a lot of other supporters out there who just have not posted responses. This is my last input on this particular subject. One exception might be, if someone posted some really well thought out arguments against my position.

 

[Joe]

re: I'm that guy

Dan... The great BENEFIT of this forum is: that you get a lot of opinions and advice. The great DANGER of this forum is: ... that you get a lot of opinions and advice. As an inexperienced boater, you would see Dan Maguire's comment regarding non-marine blocks and bargain basement rope as a benefit; as in how to save money in a somewhat expensive pastime. As experienced boaters, we would appreciate the spirit of Dan's post, but feel compelled to disclose the dangers of using sub-standard equipment in critical areas. Regarding the Home Depot rope: it is not designed to function as a halyard, sheet or control line on a sailboat. How do I know? I've tried it, a few others in the marina have tried it. It's no good. It won't last a season, especially if you sail alot. The sun and weather, not to mention running it over cheap blocks) will weaken it so fast that it will fall right off the strength comparison chart. The benefit is: it's cheap. The danger is: it's cheap.

 

[Dan McGuire]

Tried It

I have been using cheap line (not all from Home Depot) for three seasons. The halyards and sheets, except for the genoa sheet, remain on the boat. I have seen some fraying and fading of the outer braid, but I have seen that on the more expensive brands. I usually sail twice a week, unless the weather or other committments prevent it. The cheap blocks I use are just as smooth as the more expensive ones, in fact they are smoother than the worn blocks I replaced. None of the cheap material I am using is a safety concern. If they break, it is an inconvenience. Some of you are convinced it is dangerous. For the purpose you are using the line, it could be. I am honest enough and feel obligated to let everyone know, if I have a failure.

 

[Gord May]

Other Ideas?

OK, a lot of us don't (myself included)like cheap line.Dan started out with a great question tho' - how to save money.The following may be slightly off-topic; but it goes to the IDEA of cost savings. I’d still like to hear the many money-saving ideas our group can share. Over 30 years of boating (power + sail) and 9 years of full-time live aboard & cruising a small boat (C&C29), I’ve acquired (thru’ my experiences & others’) several general philosophical principles:1. If you don’t have the time (or money) to do it right in the first place; where will you get the time (or money) to fix it?2. If it’s not worth doing right; why bother doing it at all?3. Murphy was an optimist - so how WILL it fail, and to what consequences?4. Often, less is more - or ‘KISS’.5. No-one’s paying us to do this - we’re doing it for fun!*Further to 1 & 2:The first two principles often lead me to delay or even omit contemplated projects. Often, a poorly designed or executed “improvement” isn’t (an improvement); in which case, why bother?Thinking they were likely to be lost or stolen, I used to carry an assortment of cheap throw-away emergency tools in my dinghy. Well, come time to actually use them (for ourselves & often for others), some of the tools were found to be useless (pliers come to mind), and some merely less useful (screwdrivers). Now, I keep pro’ quality [to match my skills ] tools in a waterproof “Pelican’ box. *Further to 3:I always like to know the consequences of equipment or procedural failure, hoping to ameliorate the potential damage. I try to match my investment (time/effort/money) to the likelihood and severity of the consequences. How likely is a cheaper Wallmart sail gasket (flaking tie) to fail, and to what effect if it does? The economy:cost ratio seems favourable, here.How likely is a cheaper brass sheave to fail & to what effect? Well, I can imagine some disastrous upshots to losing or jamming my main halyard (under many circumstances).On the other hand, my flag halyard doesn’t concern me much. I handle my sheets daily (hourly?), and prefer the luxury of good line - even IF cheaper line may be functional.Our life and well-being absolutely depends upon structural things like our ground tackle system, lifelines/handholds, et al. Why would I screw-fasten something that could save (or not) my life?If it’s going to (or could) fail; can I design in a preferred failure mode (weak link)? The nylon “snubber” on your all-chain anchor rode provides shock absorption - but it’s also a strain gauge. When it breaks, you get a loud alarm, as the chain takes up the load. I sometimes use a light (3/8") primary snubber, that is intended to break well below the intended working capacity of the anchor, chain, rode, assembly. It’s a designed failure mode.*Further to 4:The simplest solution is the most elegant. Seems obvious, and well documented elsewhere.How do you maintain the health of your expensive house battery system, while docked (long term live-aboard) and utilizing & replacing considerable DC electrical power. It ain’t easy; so I don’t bother. I substitute a cheap (& somewhat disposable) auto’ battery, & deplete-recharge it at will - basically running my loads off the charger, and using the battery as a filter/converter. It won’t last for ever, but who cares?A cheap AM radio is an excellent lightning and/or RFI detector. A better radio less so.  *Further to 5:We cruised the Bahamas, where fresh water is available, so didn’t require an R/O watermaker. As the beast of burden, aboard “Southbound”, I truly reveled in our desalinator. It gave back many hours of my life (while afloat), but cost many hours of work (ashore) to pay for. It was a personal choice - no harm no foul, either way.We’ve cruised (happily) both, with & without refrigeration. Some couldn’t do without it; while others can’t fathom the expense (money & energy). Oh, well - make yourself happy!One man's (long-winded) opinion,Gord

 

[Dan McGuire]

Gord-Great Response

Enough said, but as Gord said I would like to hear about other money saving ideas. This is an expensive hobby, even if we don't burn 20 gallons of gasoline every time we go out.

 

[David Foster]

Simpler Systems

One of the resons to buy a good old boat is the simpler systems - they are often nearly as easy to use, and much easier to maintain.For instance, there are no electric motors on our '77 h27. Foot or hand pumps move the water around. We use a solar shower in the cockpit. We have two hand pumps for the bilge (although we are considering an electric bilge pump to guard the boat when we leave it tied to the dock.)A portapotty (with pumpout piping installed) came with the boat instead of a holding tank. It doesn't smell if properly treated. No flushing means that the real capacity is the same as a holding tank several times larger. And there are no pumps, hoses, or valves to maintain.I buy at Home Depot or Loews whenever I can for projects, but use marine grade paints in all cases.Where the rubber meets to road, though, in safety, hull, rigging, and navigation systems, I buy marine grade from known suppliers. Sailing the Great Lakes means we have to be ready for some unexpected extreme conditions.My experience with line of unknown characteristics and low cost is that it often decreases my enjoyment, and increases risk. A small lake can still be dangerous. I learned to sail on Pierce Lake near Rockford, IL, in a 12 foot Moth. My best friend had to sail our boat off the lake in 30 knot winds to avoid a sudden storm and the tornado that came with it. While that was the most dramatic case, we often had to scoot in heavy winds to avoid thunder storms. Losing a line, or piece of tackle in those conditions could easily have resulted in a busted mast, bashed hull. or injury.I do applaud your question. But I would recommend getting the specs for lower cost substitutes and puzzling through the analysis of risk in each case. After all, isn't that the essence of good seamanship - working out the contingencies to minimize risk and maximize enjoyment? And sometimes we do take more risk for more enjoyment in the way we sail or equip our bosts. Dan is just pointing out that we also manage the trade-off between risk and cost. DavidLady Lillie

 

[Mike I.]

Cheap

Whil working around the motion picture industry, I learned a bit about "false economy". Is it cheaper now but shorter lived? Would it cost less now but have to be replaced in half the time? Not just talking about line. Solid stainless vs plated zinc? Brass vs bronze? Automotive quality or truely marine quality? (especially in electronics/electrical)Personally, I check every purchase. Is it truely marine or is "marine" just tacked on? I have found many "non-marine" items identical to West Marine, BUS, etc. products, but at much less cost. Mostly you only have to read the labels. But in each case, my safety and my passengers safety come first.

 

[tom]

it's hard to judge

but one false economy seems to be smart battery chargers. Some of these have very high prices and may save you replacing your batteries. But think I just bought a 115 amp hour battery at wal-mart for $60.00. If I pay $300.00 dollars for a smart charger that's 5 new batteries... Will the smart charger really make my old batteries last long enough to pay for itself before it stops working???? There is a lot of snake oil being sold. Most of the rope made in America is made by a couple of companies.  If you are a around the world cruiser planning on being far away for months at a time the difference in quality might be worth the expense but for most sailors a broken something is a small problem that can be fixed locally. The other real danger is that people keep using something that needs to be replaced because they can't afford to go top of the line. A new walmart halyard carefully purchased is probably much safer than a 12 years old sun bleached top of the line. I hate to think of what people did back when lines were tarred sissel or hemp... Sails were cotton... I'd venture that a 20 year old dacron sail is stronger than a new cotton sail. And any dacrom rope is much much much stronger than any hemp rope. Even more so when they are each 3 years old.

 

[John Dawson]

Enough

Both racer and club catagory 3/8" lines have a working load of 660 lbs and a breaking strength of 4,400 lbs, and will last over a decade easily in the sun. Poly-p is 244 lbs working strength brand new and deteriorates quickly in sunlight, as its label warns. I still use the original running rigging on my '77 V-222, which predates the modern stuff. Thats economy.

 

[Alan]

Not quite enough!

Using 25-year-old running rigging may work and when it finally breaks, be a small inconvenience. At most you will need to lower the mast and rerun a new halyard. On the other hand, hitting the deck from 55ft after a halyard has parted is not in my plans for any sailing adventure. When I go aloft, and I do at least 3 times a year, I want to be sure that the trip down is very slow.

 

[John Dawson]

Read the thread, you've got it backwards

I'm not the one here advocating using old good line OR new cheap line, I'm for proper marine cordage. I won't be going aloft on a 22ft boat with weak halyards of any type, which is what my first post cautioned. My point here was that I carefully embrace economy where possible as much as those I differ with concerning false, foolish or dangerous savings. Your post is point for point identical to my earlier one about inappropriate usage.

 

[wes]

Dan! the marketers love these people!!

Dan i really like you, your my kinda guy, keep that spirit, i am like you and there are a lot of us out here and we want to hear more.dont worry about these people, they are the ones buying bottled water at 4 time the price of gasoline thinking they are getting spring water.they are the ones who watch the comercials saying that if you care for the safty of your child then you will buy our product. WHEN SAFTY COUNTS....its all crap shoved down our throats every day..dont get me wrong dan..there are things that are safe and things that are STUPID to do and use,but if it were not for people like you who are inovative we would all be a bunch of robots for the marketers.there is an old man here that i have learned more about sailing from that has a old boat that is made from scaps of other boats and i am sure alot of walmart stuff. he is sailing all the time while in his words there are those on there yachts who leave harbor once a season and spend the rest of there time puting on beutiful new lines and standing on there decks drinking wine(or bottled water).i have learned alot about safety,adventure,survivng,from a man whos engine is a briggs and stratton with a pully system..now i would not do all the things he does but it is men like him i respect for there true seamanship..this does not mean that if you have a nice boat that you are a follower..infact most i have met in the marinas are true indivuals.and i have a lot to learn from them all including how to save money because this buisness is the worst at taking it..a man standing on a million dollar yacht told me that he has sailed all his life and he still learns every day...you people who criticizes those and treat them like there stupid..go sit a session with an old sailor.also i have learned alot from all of you here. and i love this sight so pick on me for awhile...Wes