I have tried to save money sailing by buying non-marine items for my Venture Newport 23 whenever possible. This is somewhat driven by necessity since the closest sailing supply store is probably 200 miles away. I bought my auto AF/FM radio for about half that at a marine AM/FM radio. I painted the topside, boot top and deck with Benjamin Moore polyurethane industrial paint for about $20 per gallon as opposed to about $50 per gallon for marine polyurethane paint. The white deck paint has not held up very well, but the topside and boot top paint has worked very well. I buy line for halyards and sheets from Lowells or Home Depot. I get a hundred foot length of 3/8” Polypropylene for about $9. It probably does not have quite the low stretch characteristics of the line bought at a sailing supply store, but I can’t tell the difference. I buy my sail gaskets with ball ends at Walmart for about $8 for a package of twelve. They cost about twice that at a marine supply store. Actually they work better than the ones I bought at a marine supply store. Walmart calls them something else besides sail gaskets; I can’t remember what. I use mesh dirty clothes bags for sail bags. They cost about $5 at Walmart. I have repaired blocks using brass sheaves removed from pulleys bought at the local hardware store. I would like to hear what the rest of you have done to save money sailing. I am specifically looking for ideas for inexpensive deck paint, non-ablative bottom paint and cam-cleats.
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New fusion paint!
I have used the new fusion paint that bonds with plastic on the molecular level! It is fantastic and holds up great. I used it on my decks! It cost about 3 dollars a spray can at walmart, and is produced by Krylon! Try it I think you will like it! I put on two coats!
I have used the new fusion paint that bonds with plastic on the molecular level! It is fantastic and holds up great. I used it on my decks! It cost about 3 dollars a spray can at walmart, and is produced by Krylon! Try it I think you will like it! I put on two coats!
Be careful
when you buy anything that takes a load, make sure that its working load is more than what you will put on it in a worst case scenario. I have seen some pretty good sized rope with pretty low ratings at the cut-rate tool supply stores. Ditto plus for blocks.
when you buy anything that takes a load, make sure that its working load is more than what you will put on it in a worst case scenario. I have seen some pretty good sized rope with pretty low ratings at the cut-rate tool supply stores. Ditto plus for blocks.
Alternate Lifestyle Sailing
A-plus to you for your creativity and ingenuity. True, some things bought off the shelf at Home Depot, Wal-Mart and such might work well for you while you are in Bull Shoals. However, personally, after 30 years of this sport, I'd not set foot on your boat for one second in salt water! But, to each his own, and good luck with your creativity and best of luck to you for safe sailng.
A-plus to you for your creativity and ingenuity. True, some things bought off the shelf at Home Depot, Wal-Mart and such might work well for you while you are in Bull Shoals. However, personally, after 30 years of this sport, I'd not set foot on your boat for one second in salt water! But, to each his own, and good luck with your creativity and best of luck to you for safe sailng.
Poly sail control?
I honestly don't think you are using polypropelene (yellow, floating stuff, that won't hold a knot?)for sheets & halyards. Gord
I honestly don't think you are using polypropelene (yellow, floating stuff, that won't hold a knot?)for sheets & halyards. Gord
Give me a Break
I have been using the line for over a year. It works fine. Most of the expensive line sold is some sort of "Poly", either polyester or polypropylene. Read the "West Advisor". I use 3/8" line. Generally much smaller line would be adequate, but 3/8" is more comfortable for handling. I am fairly confident that it would hold over 1000 pounds easily. If I get a strain of more than 1000 pounds on my halyard or sheet, I probably have bigger problems than a sheet or halyard breaking. As for being yellow floaty stuff, it comes in some very attractive colors. I probably wouldn't use it for blue water sailing either, although I might be tempted to try it. The consequence for me of a halyard or sheet breaking or a knot coming loose is a minor inconvenience. In my defense, sailing on Bull Shoals Lake has its own problems which you probably would not appreciate, if you have not tried sailing on a smaller inland lake. The wind speed and direction variability have to be experienced to be appreciated. I have sailed in and around Panama City FL many times and I can tell you there is a difference. I would assume that the winds around Thunder Bay are relatively constant. I would still like to hear some of the rest of you provide some ideas of how you save money or do you all just automatically pay whatever the marine industry asks.
I have been using the line for over a year. It works fine. Most of the expensive line sold is some sort of "Poly", either polyester or polypropylene. Read the "West Advisor". I use 3/8" line. Generally much smaller line would be adequate, but 3/8" is more comfortable for handling. I am fairly confident that it would hold over 1000 pounds easily. If I get a strain of more than 1000 pounds on my halyard or sheet, I probably have bigger problems than a sheet or halyard breaking. As for being yellow floaty stuff, it comes in some very attractive colors. I probably wouldn't use it for blue water sailing either, although I might be tempted to try it. The consequence for me of a halyard or sheet breaking or a knot coming loose is a minor inconvenience. In my defense, sailing on Bull Shoals Lake has its own problems which you probably would not appreciate, if you have not tried sailing on a smaller inland lake. The wind speed and direction variability have to be experienced to be appreciated. I have sailed in and around Panama City FL many times and I can tell you there is a difference. I would assume that the winds around Thunder Bay are relatively constant. I would still like to hear some of the rest of you provide some ideas of how you save money or do you all just automatically pay whatever the marine industry asks.
The internet and catalog sales work too
While we are disscussing lines and ways to save money, I will mention an outfit called Annapolis Performance Sailing which sells Spectra, Technora, Dynema, Vectran, etc. lines at what I consider very favorable prices. (see link below) Items purchased over the internet or through catalogs will incur shipping charges; however, if the seller does not have a location in your state and depending upon your state's particular legislation, you probably will not pay sales tax. So, sometimes you will find items purchased through the internet and the mail to be less expensive with shipping charges and sales tax (if appicable) than if purchased in a store. Further, the internetand catalog selections are extensive, far greater than any ship chanderly. Nevertheless, there are times when I really need to see the item before purchase to assure pricisely what I am getting.
While we are disscussing lines and ways to save money, I will mention an outfit called Annapolis Performance Sailing which sells Spectra, Technora, Dynema, Vectran, etc. lines at what I consider very favorable prices. (see link below) Items purchased over the internet or through catalogs will incur shipping charges; however, if the seller does not have a location in your state and depending upon your state's particular legislation, you probably will not pay sales tax. So, sometimes you will find items purchased through the internet and the mail to be less expensive with shipping charges and sales tax (if appicable) than if purchased in a store. Further, the internetand catalog selections are extensive, far greater than any ship chanderly. Nevertheless, there are times when I really need to see the item before purchase to assure pricisely what I am getting.
you have to be carefull
with some stuff but I think most stuff will work. As to the rope polyester is the good stuff that will work on winches polypropylene is the awfull stuff that I don't even use for anchor line. Nylon is nylon but oddly you can often buy it cheaper on line than at walmart. It seems like there are two types of people(sailors) doing any activity from scuba to flying to motorcycles. 1. Those that enjoy the activity and really don't care what the Jones think. 2. Those that choose an activity for it's snob appeal or yuppy factor. Those that enjoy the activity tend to seek value while those that seek the snob appeal actually brag about how much they spend. This is good for business!!! How many people need a $200.00 tennis racket??? A $1000.00 bike?? Harley Davidson lives off the snob factor. Harleys cost too much have poor performance and require a lot of maintenance. On the other hand some stuff just doesn't do well in salt water. Putting cheap paint on a boat that peels off in a few months doesn't make good sense. Good running rigging makes sailing more fun. I saved money by rerigging a 22' boat with a nicopress tool it was fun and I oversized to compensate a little for my lack of skill. The previous owner must have rerigged as the rigging was actually lifelines that he had tried to save money by using. It just wasn't safe and there are very few riggers in East Tennessee. You can get away with more in a small boat. IMHO
with some stuff but I think most stuff will work. As to the rope polyester is the good stuff that will work on winches polypropylene is the awfull stuff that I don't even use for anchor line. Nylon is nylon but oddly you can often buy it cheaper on line than at walmart. It seems like there are two types of people(sailors) doing any activity from scuba to flying to motorcycles. 1. Those that enjoy the activity and really don't care what the Jones think. 2. Those that choose an activity for it's snob appeal or yuppy factor. Those that enjoy the activity tend to seek value while those that seek the snob appeal actually brag about how much they spend. This is good for business!!! How many people need a $200.00 tennis racket??? A $1000.00 bike?? Harley Davidson lives off the snob factor. Harleys cost too much have poor performance and require a lot of maintenance. On the other hand some stuff just doesn't do well in salt water. Putting cheap paint on a boat that peels off in a few months doesn't make good sense. Good running rigging makes sailing more fun. I saved money by rerigging a 22' boat with a nicopress tool it was fun and I oversized to compensate a little for my lack of skill. The previous owner must have rerigged as the rigging was actually lifelines that he had tried to save money by using. It just wasn't safe and there are very few riggers in East Tennessee. You can get away with more in a small boat. IMHO
Saving money???
While I'm sure that your cheap mesh laundry bag does a suitable job of holding your sail and saving you money, it does absolutely nothing to protect your sail from the suns degrading UV rays. So how much money are you really saving?
While I'm sure that your cheap mesh laundry bag does a suitable job of holding your sail and saving you money, it does absolutely nothing to protect your sail from the suns degrading UV rays. So how much money are you really saving?
"Love a good Discussion"
Reference laundry bags. Most of the time for the Genoa, which I don't leave hanked, I just fold it and put it inside the boat. I don't believe a mesh bag will let in more light than not being covered. As for most sail bags, they don't protect from UV rays anyway. I would never leave a sail out in the direct sun for storeage, either in or out of a bag. Reference poly lines. Most New England Brand ropes are polyester, polyethylene or polypropylene. I suspect that the big difference is not the basic chemistry. The difference is in the quality control, the density and other manufacturing and selling costs. I have looked over the line and found some minor defects. I just work around it.
Reference laundry bags. Most of the time for the Genoa, which I don't leave hanked, I just fold it and put it inside the boat. I don't believe a mesh bag will let in more light than not being covered. As for most sail bags, they don't protect from UV rays anyway. I would never leave a sail out in the direct sun for storeage, either in or out of a bag. Reference poly lines. Most New England Brand ropes are polyester, polyethylene or polypropylene. I suspect that the big difference is not the basic chemistry. The difference is in the quality control, the density and other manufacturing and selling costs. I have looked over the line and found some minor defects. I just work around it.
2 Cents Worth
Dan: I'm primarily an inland sailor so I know what your talking about the varying conditions, however, I don't cut any corners on control lines, blocks, etc. I do save a ton by shopping for items such as T/P, holding tank treatments, potable anti-freeze, etc. at of all places Wal-Mart. Their camping/RV section has just about anything that you would need in that area for 1/4 of what you can find at marine stores. Liquid Nails Adhesive is something that I have also used to repair interior delaminations. It's easier to use than epoxy and seems to be a permanent repair. Only time will tell. My most recent repair was two years ago and still holding. Sam's Club also sells marine deep cycle wet cell batteries with a one year warrenty for around 50.00 bucks as opposed to the same batteries that cost much more and mine are working fine. A grocery store sold product called CLR is also in my dock box for the removal of rust and other mineral type stains and does not hurt the gel-coat. I'm certainly not stuck to marine stores and if I can find a product that works and does not sacrifice safety, I go for it.
Dan: I'm primarily an inland sailor so I know what your talking about the varying conditions, however, I don't cut any corners on control lines, blocks, etc. I do save a ton by shopping for items such as T/P, holding tank treatments, potable anti-freeze, etc. at of all places Wal-Mart. Their camping/RV section has just about anything that you would need in that area for 1/4 of what you can find at marine stores. Liquid Nails Adhesive is something that I have also used to repair interior delaminations. It's easier to use than epoxy and seems to be a permanent repair. Only time will tell. My most recent repair was two years ago and still holding. Sam's Club also sells marine deep cycle wet cell batteries with a one year warrenty for around 50.00 bucks as opposed to the same batteries that cost much more and mine are working fine. A grocery store sold product called CLR is also in my dock box for the removal of rust and other mineral type stains and does not hurt the gel-coat. I'm certainly not stuck to marine stores and if I can find a product that works and does not sacrifice safety, I go for it.
Poly
Dan McGuire wrote (in part) "...Most New England Brand ropes are polyester, polyethylene or polypropylene. I suspect that the big difference is not the basic chemistry..." WRONG - the difference is exactly the chemistry - they are totally different "poly's" (poly indicates 'multi'...). POLYESTER is a low stretch line, often used for sheets & halyards. POLYETHYLENE is usually a sheet product, often used as a vapour-barrier, etc. Never seen a polyethylene line. POLYPROPYLENE is a light floating line with moderate stretch, and limited use aboard - except dighny sailors sometimnes use it for sheets, etc., and occasiobnaly small boat painters etc. NYLON is the line of choice, when stretch is useful, as in dock & anchor lines. My current berth, Thunder Bay, is on an inland lake, which can offer some interesting winds (steady, variable, absent), & other conditions of note. I too, like to save money. I've found though, that false economies often end up costing more, or offering less value. This is not to suggest that we should'nt seek economical alternatives to expensive "marine" products - only that quality & utility are equal partners in the "value" equation. Interesting discussion.
Regards, Gord
Dan McGuire wrote (in part) "...Most New England Brand ropes are polyester, polyethylene or polypropylene. I suspect that the big difference is not the basic chemistry..." WRONG - the difference is exactly the chemistry - they are totally different "poly's" (poly indicates 'multi'...). POLYESTER is a low stretch line, often used for sheets & halyards. POLYETHYLENE is usually a sheet product, often used as a vapour-barrier, etc. Never seen a polyethylene line. POLYPROPYLENE is a light floating line with moderate stretch, and limited use aboard - except dighny sailors sometimnes use it for sheets, etc., and occasiobnaly small boat painters etc. NYLON is the line of choice, when stretch is useful, as in dock & anchor lines. My current berth, Thunder Bay, is on an inland lake, which can offer some interesting winds (steady, variable, absent), & other conditions of note. I too, like to save money. I've found though, that false economies often end up costing more, or offering less value. This is not to suggest that we should'nt seek economical alternatives to expensive "marine" products - only that quality & utility are equal partners in the "value" equation. Interesting discussion.
Regards, GordPoly"something"
Dan McGuire wrote in part) "...Most New England Brand ropes are polyester, polyethylene or polypropylene. I suspect that the big difference is not the basic chemistry..." WRONG - the difference is exactly the chemistry - they are totally different "poly's" (poly indicates 'multi'...). POLYESTER is a low stretch line, often used for sheets & halyards. POLYETHYLENE is usually a sheet product, often used as a vapour-barrier, etc. Never seen a polyethylene line. POLYPROPYLENE is a light floating line with moderate stretch, and limited use aboard - except dighny sailors sometimnes use it for sheets, etc., and occasiobnaly small boat painters etc. NYLON is the line of choice, when stretch is useful, as in dock & anchor lines. My current berth, Thunder Bay, is on an inland lake, which can offer some interesting winds (steady, variable, absent), & other conditions of note. I too, like to save money. I've found though, that false economies often end up costing more, or offering less value. This is not to suggest that we should'nt seek economical alternatives to expensive "marine" products - only that quality & utility are equal partners in the "value" equation. Interesting discussion. Regards, Gord
Dan McGuire wrote in part) "...Most New England Brand ropes are polyester, polyethylene or polypropylene. I suspect that the big difference is not the basic chemistry..." WRONG - the difference is exactly the chemistry - they are totally different "poly's" (poly indicates 'multi'...). POLYESTER is a low stretch line, often used for sheets & halyards. POLYETHYLENE is usually a sheet product, often used as a vapour-barrier, etc. Never seen a polyethylene line. POLYPROPYLENE is a light floating line with moderate stretch, and limited use aboard - except dighny sailors sometimnes use it for sheets, etc., and occasiobnaly small boat painters etc. NYLON is the line of choice, when stretch is useful, as in dock & anchor lines. My current berth, Thunder Bay, is on an inland lake, which can offer some interesting winds (steady, variable, absent), & other conditions of note. I too, like to save money. I've found though, that false economies often end up costing more, or offering less value. This is not to suggest that we should'nt seek economical alternatives to expensive "marine" products - only that quality & utility are equal partners in the "value" equation. Interesting discussion. Regards, Gord
More Poly Something
Gord, love your part of the country. We spent a year travelling after retiring. We spent a large part of it in Ontario and Nova Scotia. I never considered Lake Superior to be just an inland lake. My lake is less than one hundred square miles surrounded by 500 foot hills. Take a look at the West Marine catalog. According to West Marine, polypropylene is used in Regatta Braid and Endura, all used for control lines. Endura 12 uses Polyethylene. The bottom line is that the 3/8" line I use has given no indication of failing. I have seen no indication of undesirable stretcing characteristics. It is more than adquate for my purpose. I suppose that is what everyone has to decide for himself. Also some of the line at Lowells and Home Depot is not a double braid. Some have a braided cover with straight fibers inside. I have used both with no problems.
Gord, love your part of the country. We spent a year travelling after retiring. We spent a large part of it in Ontario and Nova Scotia. I never considered Lake Superior to be just an inland lake. My lake is less than one hundred square miles surrounded by 500 foot hills. Take a look at the West Marine catalog. According to West Marine, polypropylene is used in Regatta Braid and Endura, all used for control lines. Endura 12 uses Polyethylene. The bottom line is that the 3/8" line I use has given no indication of failing. I have seen no indication of undesirable stretcing characteristics. It is more than adquate for my purpose. I suppose that is what everyone has to decide for himself. Also some of the line at Lowells and Home Depot is not a double braid. Some have a braided cover with straight fibers inside. I have used both with no problems.
checked out westmarine
they used ultra high molecular weight polyethylene. Cool!!! not the same stuff as your milk jug. It is the first time that I've heard of polyethylene ropes. Must be a newer technology to make the polyethylene. Also noted that the polypropylene was not recommended for use with a winch!!! Come to think of it my first sailboat was a sunfish and it had a polypropylene rope as a halyard. No winch there. I like the way polyester ropes feel. They are fairly easy on the hands. I don't like floating ropes(polypropylene,polyethlene) as anchor rodes as they float around on the surface waiting to get wrapped around your prop!!! Nylon and polyester sink. But polyester in general isn't stretchy enough to absorb the shock loads from waves. A lot of small fishing boats use polypropylene rope as anchor rodes.
they used ultra high molecular weight polyethylene. Cool!!! not the same stuff as your milk jug. It is the first time that I've heard of polyethylene ropes. Must be a newer technology to make the polyethylene. Also noted that the polypropylene was not recommended for use with a winch!!! Come to think of it my first sailboat was a sunfish and it had a polypropylene rope as a halyard. No winch there. I like the way polyester ropes feel. They are fairly easy on the hands. I don't like floating ropes(polypropylene,polyethlene) as anchor rodes as they float around on the surface waiting to get wrapped around your prop!!! Nylon and polyester sink. But polyester in general isn't stretchy enough to absorb the shock loads from waves. A lot of small fishing boats use polypropylene rope as anchor rodes.
There was a guy
several years ago in New England who was given a rough Cal 20 and made sails out of black plastic and sailed it to the Caribbean. They didn't shape out like the books say they should, but he got there. I made some pretty good "transom hooks" out of Walmart over-the-door clothes hanger racks, and they do a great job of locating my solar panel in an out-of-the-way spot.
several years ago in New England who was given a rough Cal 20 and made sails out of black plastic and sailed it to the Caribbean. They didn't shape out like the books say they should, but he got there. I made some pretty good "transom hooks" out of Walmart over-the-door clothes hanger racks, and they do a great job of locating my solar panel in an out-of-the-way spot.
Sorry, Dan, but that Home Depot rope sucks....
... If you really are interested in finding bargains, as I am, try online marine suppliers such as Defender.com. Good quality gear will outlast inferior quality. Ths means less chance of failure ... safer and cheaper.
... If you really are interested in finding bargains, as I am, try online marine suppliers such as Defender.com. Good quality gear will outlast inferior quality. Ths means less chance of failure ... safer and cheaper.
How did you Determine This?
I realize that I am beating a dead horse, but somehow I couldn't resist. I shop at Defender, Sailnet, etc. The line at Home Depot is about 20% or less of the their price. How did you determine that the Home Depot line sucks? Vacuum gage? Objective Analysis? Tried it? Tested it? Looked at it? I would agree that it is not as good a line as the more expensive line. In general, for my Mac 23, I do not need expensive 3/8" line. Much smaller line is adequate. However, I do prefer 3/8" line. It will certainly last until it is so faded that I no longer want to look at it. If it was a safety issue, I would not use the cheap stuff without a lot more information.
I realize that I am beating a dead horse, but somehow I couldn't resist. I shop at Defender, Sailnet, etc. The line at Home Depot is about 20% or less of the their price. How did you determine that the Home Depot line sucks? Vacuum gage? Objective Analysis? Tried it? Tested it? Looked at it? I would agree that it is not as good a line as the more expensive line. In general, for my Mac 23, I do not need expensive 3/8" line. Much smaller line is adequate. However, I do prefer 3/8" line. It will certainly last until it is so faded that I no longer want to look at it. If it was a safety issue, I would not use the cheap stuff without a lot more information.
Irresponsible post
There are novice boaters who read posts like the original one here and don't know the difference between a low-strength specialty line like polypropylene and quality hi-strength cordage. It may be fine for someone's daysailer on the lake, but when you advertise it on the web as an economical replacement, then... the new owner on a larger boat may use it for his anchor line, or the halyard that he goes aloft on, or the genoa sheet under tremendous strain, or the dock line, etc. I'm all for economy when possible, but read the legal notice at the bottom of the response page.
There are novice boaters who read posts like the original one here and don't know the difference between a low-strength specialty line like polypropylene and quality hi-strength cordage. It may be fine for someone's daysailer on the lake, but when you advertise it on the web as an economical replacement, then... the new owner on a larger boat may use it for his anchor line, or the halyard that he goes aloft on, or the genoa sheet under tremendous strain, or the dock line, etc. I'm all for economy when possible, but read the legal notice at the bottom of the response page.
Cheap good line on ebay.
I've bought really good lines on ebay for about half the cost of catalogs. I've also bought other sailing hardware on ebay. So far - so good. ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
I've bought really good lines on ebay for about half the cost of catalogs. I've also bought other sailing hardware on ebay. So far - so good. ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
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