Sarasota. Risks, judgment, laws.

Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
There is a VERY GOOD editorial in the Sarasota Herald-Tribune regarding boating laws, and their influence on tragedies like the one that just occurred. I've add the link and the full text below, but the summary point (quoted below) is spot on.

When people fail to be that careful, it is rarely because they don't know better. My guess is that, like most boaters who make fatal mistakes, Kimberly knew better and still made risky decisions.

Human beings do that. When lucky, they get away with it. When not, it becomes easy to imagine that if we just had more laws, such fatal accidents wouldn't happen.

To me, the validity of that conclusion is not obvious at all.

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20160629/NEWS/160629559/2416/FRONTPAGE


I'm tempted to start referring to a certain boating instructor by using the name of a fictional character: Captain Obvious.

But it doesn't mean I always agree with him.

C. William Myers teaches boating safety to a lot of people. I hear from him often, mainly because he wants lots more Floridians to take courses like his.

He is a good guy with great credentials. He teaches for free. He isn't primarily looking for free publicity. What he wants is news media pressure on lawmakers to get them to require boaters to take more safety courses and pass tougher boating tests.

Like the spoofy TV captain, Myers can be really predictable. I knew, for instance, that he would send me a snail-mail letter within days of the tragic sailboat disaster that claimed the lives of a Sarasota man, Ace Kimberly, and his teenage kids. And he did.

Every time a serious boating accident is in the news, Myers writes. Each time, he thinks he can show how a failure to use proper procedures or follow safety guidelines contributed to the deaths or injuries.

I usually agree, but then we have the usual discussion about whether such accidents and lapses in diligence or judgment would really be reduced by more bureaucracy and laws.

In this particularly bad boating tragedy, not much is known for sure but much seems evident.

Ace Kimberly had called his brother to report that his 29-foot sailboat was in six-foot seas offshore of Englewood and having a tough time on their trip from Sarasota to Fort Myers. A Coast Guard search that began two days later located two bodies, one of them Kimberly's, and a debris field that included a sailboat mast, life jackets and documents linked to the family.

The waves Kimberly had told his brother about were apparently the sort that could be uncomfortable and challenging for those aboard a sailboat of that size, though probably not big enough to account for the disaster unless coupled with other problems. But there are reasons to think Kimberly's boat was in serious need of maintenance and was not very seaworthy.

So other problems probably arose.

And so, it now seems obvious that Kimberly made a dangerous decision going into the Gulf of Mexico in an unready boat, especially with his children.

Almost as obvious to Myers and many boaters are issues about safety equipment. The boat apparently did not have any electronic means to call for help aside from a cell phone, which is only usable when close to shore.

The boat had life jackets, but it seems most were not being worn despite the worrisome conditions. Most were found in the debris field.

It is impossible to know what else might have been amiss. Maybe the boat lost its mast because of worn rigging, and so lost steerage. Maintaining a live-aboard boat on a tight budget is difficult. Maybe crucial parts were in urgent need of replacement.

Whatever the details, it is easy enough now to insist that Kimberly used terrible judgment and underestimated the danger. It is an obvious explanation, and he can't argue with it.

So Myers concludes that more formal boating instruction would likely have saved the family, either by steering them away from a bad decision to take that trip into the Gulf at all or by helping them respond better to conditions and problems they encountered. He sees the deaths as obvious evidence that more training should be required for all boaters.

I see it as evidence that people – some much more than others -- sometimes make serious mistakes. And though some might do so out of ignorance about safety equipment and procedures, most would be just as prone to make errors no matter what course they took.

Good judgment is easy in a classroom, and hard in real life. Otherwise, no one would drive too fast or while buzzed or while texting, and no one would ever use a boat that isn't totally ready for Coast Guard inspection. Those boaters short of money for the best boat safety equipment would always stay ashore.

When people fail to be that careful, it is rarely because they don't know better. My guess is that, like most boaters who make fatal mistakes, Kimberly knew better and still made risky decisions.

Human beings do that. When lucky, they get away with it. When not, it becomes easy to imagine that if we just had more laws, such fatal accidents wouldn't happen.

To me, the validity of that conclusion is not obvious at all.[/quote]
 
May 12, 2004
1,505
Hunter Cherubini 30 New Port Richey
if we just had more laws
We can enact all the laws we want but, if people aren't going to heed them, they are worthless. Enforcement on the water is spotty, at best. What we need, especially in the boating world, are more people taking advantage of all the free and low cost education programs out there.
Here in Fl. one does not need any training or education to captain a vessel unless they were born after Jan. 1, 1988 and they are going to operate a vessel with more than 10hp. Then, all it requires is about 20 minutes at a computer, read and answer a few questions, then print out your boater safety card. Give a person a license without requiring any knowledge or experience and you have a recipe for disaster. Now, that's what's scary.
 
Jan 19, 2010
12,926
Hobie 16 & Rhodes 22 Skeeter Charleston
Good points made Jackdaw

When this tragedy happened, the inevitable thread harshly criticizing the father began almost immediately. I stayed out of it because those sort of "safer-than-thow" threads make me sick. They happen on here about once every six month.

We don't know what happened. It seems to my mind that even a dismasting would not cause the type of debris field observed nor would it necessarily sink the boat or prevent the kids below (presuming) from putting on their life jackets. It seems to me that something really bad must have happened that sunk the boat rapidly. Something a whole lot more serious than failed rigging or loss of steering.

Again! We don't know what happened but presuming the father was at fault and then publicly lambasting him is callous in my mind. From what we know, it is just as likely that he struck something or was struck by something.

It is odd to me that if you get away with sailing "old school" (Think Lin and Larry Pardey) you are held up as a superior sailor... but if something goes wrong, you are chastised for not having Spot, an EPRIB for each crewman, and 3 backup chart plotters, a sextant and a sat. phone, SSB radio, VHF + hand held backup, two life slings, an MOB buoy with water activated strobe, enough spare parts to build a new engine from scratch etc etc. A man should be thrown in jail for not having all of that equipment on board at all times.

Sorry for the rant... and I really appreciated your post. It was a shot of reason into the frenzied waters.
 
May 12, 2004
1,505
Hunter Cherubini 30 New Port Richey
JD, after rereading this thread and my response, I realized that my taking a quote from your post might make it look like my reply was aimed at you. No, sir, not in the least. I just used that as a jumping off point for my rant. Very good article, by the way.
 
Jul 27, 2011
5,180
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
Sorry for the rant... and I really appreciated your post. It was a shot of reason into the frenzied waters.
The author of the article that JD posted is a fellow named Tom Lyons of the Herald-Tribune.
 
Jan 6, 2010
1,520
Jack,

You couldn't have presented this any better man.

Knowing a late spring front was coming thru, It could have been an easy ICW crawl.
Knot knowing the condition of the boat, as he was living off the hook with 3 teenage children, this alone sends up yellow flags. At worst, he would've gone aground in a narrow channel w/no-to-minimal seas & in soft sand no matter the condition of the boat. Worst come to worst, they could've have simply waded to shore. Most of this run is 75 yards wide or less. Outside the markers, it's pretty shallow. I have made this leg numerous times in not only my boat, but various sized powerboats. It's an easy leg.

I'll give you guys an example, it was 10 years ago on New Years day. NOAA said a WEAK front was moving thru but, there would be none to minimal effect. We were 22 miles off shore on a fishing trip. Luckily, it was a sturdy 44 ft. fishing boat skippered by my good friend Jim Zerbrick. We dove/fished & speared fish together for years.

While gigging for bait, I looked to the north & saw very ominous low dark clouds rolling in fast. I called to Jim & we brought the lines in at the moment that 40 knot winds & eight foot seas hit us off the beam. We had 5 people onboard including his boat dog. Within five minutes 3 out of five including the dog was barfing. It was then that 3 Maydays went out on the VHF.

A boater 3 miles from us, was in a 20 ft. center console. His wife & child were onboard & he was anchored or so, he thought. As it turned out, his not having a heavier anchor probably saved their lives. It was dragging so, his radioed position kept changing. This was lucky for him, as the dragging anchor kept his nose to the seas. What could a guy be thinking, in a small boat 22 miles off shore with a winter cold front rolling in & wife & child onboard?

Another plus, was that he had flares onboard. I hailed him to shoot one to lock in his position off ours. There was no way to see his boat in 8 ft. seas. Luckily, he shot two off. With all the Maydays, The radio chatter was crazy but, I was able to give our approx. position to the USCG cutter Jim, had his hands full with the boat. These guys are great & just happened to be in the vicinity that day. we stayed with the boat until the CG showed up & radioed us that we could now stand-off.

Three other people needlessly died that day. Yea, a front was moving thru but, NOAA predicted there would be no conditions and the fools believed it.

Losing boaters in my back yard, I take this as VERY personal. A life wasted thru ignorance and/or indifference is inexcusable. The kids were just following dad's orders. He was on the inside to begin with, the info was available yet, he chose to ignore it. Why who cares, the skipper is responsible for the safety of all passengers. And just like the skipper of the Bounty, he made a fatal dumb choice & LOOK at that turned out.

Ya know the saying, "You can lead a horse to water...........blah blah blah," It's unfortunate Jack, recently in my area, we have had three other boaters needlessly die in the last two weeks. Ya just can't teach those that do not fathom nor listen nor execute.

Children, should never die if safeguards are in place.

Good post Jack, I look forward to the replies.

CR
 
Aug 12, 2014
214
Universal Marine Montego 25 San Pedro, CA
RIP to the Kimberly family. A sad outcome for sure, regardless of the reasons.

I have to agree, I don't think any amount of extra laws/licensing/buraucracy would prevent such a thing.

To make an analogy, in the U.S. the process of applying for and receiving a driver's license (to drive a car on public roads) is fairly rigorous, in California where I live at least. There are many laws regarding driving, including prohibitions on drunk driving and distracted driving (text and other "smart phone" antics). There is fairly rigorous enforcement of these laws as well - definitely moreso than enforcement of boating laws.

Yet, people die every day on the roads.

People will do as they will, and more or different laws won't prevent this sort of thing unfortunately, IMO.

RIP sailors.
 

Bob J.

.
Apr 14, 2009
775
Sabre 28 NH
It is sad what has happened to this family. I think the saddest part are the young people that lost their lives due to unsound judgment on the part of their father.
Although we can embrace boater education, safety courses & laws requiring such the basic fact is you can not legislate stupidity......
 
Sep 15, 2013
708
Catalina 270 Baltimore
I spent 20 years in the big bend area of FL and most of it near the water. I personally knew of 2 families in a similar situation as Mr. Kimberly's. They were one step above homeless but never considered themselves poor. They worked odd jobs and managed to keep everyone fed. They were solid folks and their kids were the best behaved at the marina. Neither of their vessels were seaworthy. They tended to live more on faith as they could not afford the safety equipment we take for granted. They rarely if ever traveled on their boats. From this knowledge my guess is the family left Sarasota out of necessity, probably to get a repair for free or for traded work. They probably went the offshore route because they were not registered and would have been stopped on the ICW by any one of a number of state enforcement agencies. When this is all said and done I believe it will be determined a mechanical failure, probably rigging or even hull failure, brought them down. Ironically and sadly maybe the item they were traveling to get fixed. I was quiet in the last thread because that really hit home. Because Florida has a warm climate and relatively lax regulations (try Maryland if you don't believe me) many people find themselves in the same situation as that family did. I know Florida is aggressively cracking down on derelict boats and free form anchorages and that may help a little. The society approved option would be for them to live in a parked camper or a homeless shelter. There are those who would choose the adventure over the former options. I am sure there will be many arguments and lamentations on the loss of the childrens lives and that is an absolute tragedy. But getting back to the subject of the thread I do not believe additional regulation would have helped in this case.
 
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