Sails Up on the Hard!

[Ward H]

As several suggested, I set up my newport 17 in the backyard today. Good practice. I did get some lines crossed but I will look for that the next time. That's what practice is all about.
Here are some questions that came up today.
1. Does the forestay and jib shackles look okay? The po used the pin of the shackle to connect the forestay shackle to the chain plain. I added the cleavis pin and seperate long D ring for the jib connection. Photo 2.
2. I have read where some people replace the wire/line halyard with all line. I want to do this as it will give me enough length to connect the jib halyard to the chain plate with the mast down. After rasing the mast I can tighten the jib halyard to hold the mast up while I fumble/ connect the forestay shackles. We had trouble holding tension on the forestay while connecting the shackle when we trial sailed the boat and again today when I did the set up solo. Can I just buy the line and tie a boline to the shackle or do I need the special inner metal piece? Do I need to get the line special built with a loop in it? See photo 3
3. Is this a shroud repair? Photo 4.
4. The clam cleat of the main sheet block shows some rust and sticks a bit. Is there a lubricant I can use? Photo 5.
5. The rudder floats up unless I run the line through the jam cleat to hold it down. Sounds like a bad thing if I hit a stump or the bottom? Photo 6.

If I don't get on the water this weekend, pop up storms are predicted, I will give it another dry run.

Thanks for the help!

Best Regards,

Ward

 

[31seahorse]

Hello Ward,
Question #1 Those shackles on the forestay and jib may shake loose. If you use them put some ss wire through the hole in the end of the pin and around that leg of the shackle. Wrapping with wire like that is called "mousing" the shackle. It prevents the pins from comming out. Used on mooring or anchor shackles mostly. Question #3 (photo 4) I doube that is a repair, but who knows???? May be a reminant of a wind indicator. Question #4 (photo 5) WD or PB Blaster might help. You might not want to cleat the main sheet in most situations and certainly not if it might get stuck! Question #5 (photo 6) The hold down line is fine, but perhaps you can tighten the bolt at the pivot of the rudder blade. RE: photo 3 Nasty looking strands of cable there. Wrap them at least to protect hands and sails. There are some concerns about changing from line/wire to all line. Check other threads on these discussions.
Phil

PS The pin in the adjuster for the forestay & any others pins like it: Change that to a true kotter pin and wrap it or at least use a ring.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Ward,

Mainsheet block: it's a CAM CLEAT, not a clam cleat. Check out the West Marine or Defender catalogs and learn the differences.

Instead of WD-40, but some PB Blaster, it's much much better than WD-40 and/or liquid Wrench but avoid getting it on rubber parts.

A little 3:1 oil also goes a long way. Get yourself a spray can or small tube of Super Lube, also great for keeping moving parts moving.

I wouldn't trust a carabiner for the tack of your jib. Also, do NOT use a standard shackle, they tend to come loose all by themselves. I'd try what's called a LONG "D" shackle on the tack, they also come with a 90 degree twist arrangement which could work for you in that situation. Take the clevis pin with the looped keeper and turn it around: have the flat end forward, with the ring keeper aft, that way if the ring lets go the pin might actually stay in place.

No hurry to change your halyard as long as there aren't any meathooks in the wire. before you change it check to make sure the sheaves at the top of the mast will handle rope instead of wire, sometimes the groove in the sheave is too narrow for line, and it may be wise to change the sheaves anyway, so buy ones made for rope, not wire. New sheaves will make raising and dropping the main much easier.

Good luck, looks great.

 

[Joe]

Get rid of the shackle for the forestay and pin the turnbuckle directly to the stem. Now you can get rid of the caribiner and shackle the jib tack directly to the lower stem hole.

The forestay is too short if you have the turnbuckle extended so far.... take the hitch pin out of the turnbuckle shaft. Use a cotter pin, or ring, then tape over to avoid scratching.

The bow light should be in front of the forestay.

Not sure what pic 3 is... the jib halyard? What's the other stuff on the mast ring.

The "thingy" in the middle of the loop is called a thimble. The little loop is called an "eye" In your exampe the thimbled eye is created by the small ring that is "nicopressed" onto the wire. If the halyard were rope, the eye would be called a "sliced eye"... or you could just tie a bowline through the head board instead of using a shackle.

If you go to any major chandlery, they will have the tools and parts in the store to make these parts.

If you change the halyard.... 1/4 inch double braid polyester (such as New England Sta-set) is plenty strong, and cost effective.

When you raise the mast.... use the jib halyard to hold the mast steady while pinning the forestay.

You can take the cam cleat apart (carefully) to see if the wire spring is broken or jammed. Probably just needs cleaning.... but... dude... that's one ugly mainsheet. On a boat that size I wouldn't use anything larger than 5/16.... so it runs through the blocks easily. I like Samson trophy braid for that application. (fuzzy stuff)

Truthfully, you're good to go as it is... but if I were you I'd google the boat and look at as many pictures as possible... there are quite a few. Have fun.

 

[GeorgiaBII]

Get rid of the shackle for the forestay and pin the turnbuckle directly to the stem.

The forestay is too short if you have the turnbuckle extended so far.... take the hitch pin out of the turnbuckle shaft. Use a cotter pin, or ring, then tape over to avoid scratching.

Looking at the picture of the entire boat I was thinking the mast was raked too far back. Maybe loosen the backstay and the fore will be long enough...

 

[Joe]

Looking at the picture of the entire boat I was thinking the mast was raked too far back. Maybe loosen the backstay and the fore will be long enough...

Yeah... I agree.... there's no backstay... so adjusting the swept back shrouds will change the rake. Also... remember he has an adjuster somewhere at the top of the stay... that could give him more length without changing the rake.

 

[Ward H]

Went through all the suggestions and made a list of the things to fix or improve on.

Joe, pic 3 shows both the jib halyard and main sail halyard.

When I trial sailed the boat in the fall, we did attach the forestay directly to the chain plate. This time, no matter what I did, I could not make it reach. I will try again.

I talked to a guy at WM and he said the New England Sta Set line was too stretchy. Maybe not for this boat and application?

Edit - Was looking at some photos of other N17s and noticed that all the bow lights were forward of the chain plate. Then I realized why mine is where it's at. It is the furthest point forward it could be mounted without opening up the front bulkhead wall. I can fix that next winter.

 

[Joe]

Went through all the suggestions and made a list of the things to fix or improve on.

Joe, pic 3 shows both the jib halyard and main sail halyard.

When I trial sailed the boat in the fall, we did attach the forestay directly to the chain plate. This time, no matter what I did, I could not make it reach. I will try again.

I talked to a guy at WM and he said the New England Sta Set line was too stretchy. Maybe not for this boat and application?

I was hoping you'd show the upper connection and jib halyard block. That picture doesn't really tell me anything.... what is it shackled to, it looks like a mast ring for the whisker pole.

Sta set is fine for your needs..... what did he recommend instead.. sta set X? Stay away from that stuff, it's hard to splice and knot, and it shows dirt too easily. Any "club race" quality line is more than adequate... Samson LS, Yale Yachtbraid... what ever.

Take a look at your shrouds (sidestays) and make sure they are not kinked or bungled where they connect to the mast.... there's only three wires holding the mast..so if the forestay seems too short, the the shrouds are restricting the mast position. I also remember you saying there's an adjuster thing on the upper end of the forestay... check that.

 

[Ward H]

Hi Joe,

I posted photo 3 to show the ends of the jib halyard wire and main halyard wire. For storage they are attached to that ring on mast. Not sure what the ring is for.
Here is a photo of the jib block. Is that what you wanted to see?

No adjustment on the upper end of the forestay.
Your right, something must have been twisted preventing me from attaching the forestay directly to the chain plate.
I also looked at several photos of N17s I agree that my mast may be raked back too much. I'll check that when I can set it up again. There must be a reason the turnbuckle is extended all the way and I could not attached it directly to the chain plate.

The guy at WM suggested I get a low stretch line from the Annapolis Performance Sailing website.
I'll go with the Sta Set.

Thanks for the help!

Ward

 

[Joe]

Hi Joe,

I posted photo 3 to show the ends of the jib halyard wire and main halyard wire. For storage they are attached to that ring on mast. Not sure what the ring is for.
Here is a photo of the jib block. Is that what you wanted to see?

No adjustment on the upper end of the forestay.
Your right, something must have been twisted preventing me from attaching the forestay directly to the chain plate.
I also looked at several photos of N17s I agree that my mast may be raked back too much. I'll check that when I can set it up again. There must be a reason the turnbuckle is extended all the way and I could not attached it directly to the chain plate.

The guy at WM suggested I get a low stretch line from the Annapolis Performance Sailing website.
I'll go with the Sta Set.

Thanks for the help!

Ward

That guy must be an idiot to send you somewhere else. The sell hi teck line at westmarine..just like APS.

Ward....... that block is more than adequate for a 1/4 rope halyard. Go ahead and purchase the line, get an extra foot or so, in case you want to try your hand at splicing in an eye. Until then, simply attach directly to the sail, or you can use the halyard shackle... tie it won with a buntline hitch.

What I was hoping was a little less close up, instead an over all picture of the upper part of the mast...to see all the connections. There's a lot of wear, the block is banging against the mast, mainly because the sheave is metal and too big for the halyard. A smaller, non metallic block, such as the Harken small buller, will lessen this wear because the rope halyard will rest between the block and the mast. Also, with a smaller block, when the sail is hoisted, the block will be pulled away from the mast a bit so it won't rub.

Anyhoo...... you can use the jib halyard to help with getting the forestay pinned...

The next question is how the main sail halyard is rove... does it go over the top of the mast, where a sheave is located inside the top... or is it similar to the jib.. a free block shackled to the mast... Again... you don't wan lots of movement up there...it simply creates more abrasion. You can certainly change out the mainsheet if you like. There are a few ways dingys rig their mains... a lot of them have a wire with a small ball crimped on that slips into a catch.... allowing the rope part to be removed while the sail is hoisted.... my guess is that the halyard is simply secured to a cleat low down on the mast. If this is the case than going all rope is simple.

Now for something else, If I were you I would closely examine the condition of your rudder. Again pictures help.... but yours are too close up to really tell much.... a picture of the complete rudder would be easier to evaluate. I've looked at others online and saw some variation from yours. In any event I would dismantle it and refinish the blade.... super important that this piece is in good shape. Replacement rudders are pretty expensive on any boat. So clean up the casting, replace the fastners if needed and study every examply you can find on line... the idea behind a kick up rudder is to make it easier to beach the boat, or deploy when leaving the beach. On my nacra the control lilne pulls the rudder down, into positions. Shock cord is rigged to pull the rudder up when the control line is released.... So... you're approaching the beach, the dagger board is up, the rudder is still down controlling sideslip and direction... when you get close you simply release the control line and the rudder pops up.... So again, study pictures of the rudder... you'll find a lot on texassailing.com and figure it out. It will make your life a little easier if the kick up rudder is working properly.

So take some wider angle pics... a closeup pic of a shackle doesn't help much... pull back a few feet and show the whole thing. BTW, it's fun helping you figure this stuff out...

Oh, that mast ring is an attachment point for a whisker pole.

 

[kenn]

the idea behind a kick up rudder is to make it easier to beach the boat, or deploy when leaving the beach.

Our boat is beachable (if we remember to crank the keel up ), and our rudder is kick-up. A line is used to pull and hold the rudder blade down; we have a "releasing" sort of clam-cleat that will (theoretically) pop out if the rudder grounds. I've also seen the use of shock cord with enough tension to keep the rudder blade down normally.

 

[Joe]

Our boat is beachable (if we remember to crank the keel up ), and our rudder is kick-up. A line is used to pull and hold the rudder blade down; we have a "releasing" sort of clam-cleat that will (theoretically) pop out if the rudder grounds. I've also seen the use of shock cord with enough tension to keep the rudder blade down normally.

yeah, exactly..... here's a picture of what I have on the nacra tillers... easier than describing it... it's called a "pivmatic" Yours is designed for flat surface mounting, where mine fits directly to the tiller tube. When the tension is flat the tube takes all the strain.... when the rudder end tries to lift... it breaks the pivmatic loose from the tiller tube.... BRILLIANT!

 

[Ward H]

Hi Joe, here are a couple of photos of the mast head and looking at the mast from the foot.
The sheaves on the mast head look like they will take 1/4" line.
I'll be ordering the NE Sta Set 1/4 " for the halyards, the Harken Bullet Block and some 5/16 trophy braid today.
I'll get some photos of the rudder set up on Sun. Taking my ASA101 class Fri and Sat.

Thanks
Ward

 

[Joe]

Looks good... run the 1/4 line through the vee channeled masthead sheave to verify it will run free ... shouldn't be an issue. Use a "buntline hitch" to tie the halyard to the shackle.... this knot will allow you to snug it up for tight fit that won't shake loose....downside is the knot can be difficult to open... but you won't have to do that very often. If you feel compelled to try splicing an eye into your new line there are instructions on the rope manufacturers' websites.

 

[sailor1950]

aps,com annapolis performance sells a jam cleat for your rudder. it is adjustable for strain. I used it in my laser and a 23 precision

 

[Ward H]

Used APSLTD.com for lines and hardware. Very good prices and good service. When I asked a question about a cam cleat for a certain situation, they suggested a cheaper solution I was not aware of.

I replaced my jib and main wire/line halyards with line only. Used 1/4" NE Sta Set. Changed out the jib mast block with the Harken Bullet block. The two sheaves at the top of the bast are in good condition and handle the 1/4" line. Both halyards run smoothly with this change.
By eliminating the wire/line connection on the jib halyard, I can run enough line length forward to attach the jib shackle to the twisted D shackle on the bow chain plate, while the mast is lying horizontal. I now can walk the mast up to vertical, snug and cleat the jib halyward and that holds the mast up while I connect the forestay. Much easier.
I also attached another line to the jib shackle and ran it through a block on the bow chain plate, then back to an exisiting fairlead and clam cleat on the cabin top near the cockpit. I will use this as a jib downhaul. I am hoping that by snugging this downhaul line and the jib sheets, I can douse the jib and keep it on the foredeck without leaving the cockpit. Then I can properly stow the jib while at the dock. I figure anything I can do to keep me off the foredeck while out on the water make sailing safer.

I listened to Joe and took a good look at the rudder. The wood appears to be two or three boards glued together and it has been repaired in the past. Of concern was two splits near the middle of center line and one split ran through the swivel bolt hole.
I sanded off the finish in this area and put a section of fiberglass over the splits on both sides and put on a couple of coats of epoxy. This covered the bolt hole, which had elongated over time. I mixed some filler in with some epoxy and filled the bolt hole. Then drilled a new hole when it was hardened.
I used some SS fender washers on both sides when installing the rudder in the aluminum bracket. Fit was much snugger than before. I am hoping that helps to keep the rudder down. If needed I will try the shock cord idea kenn mentioned or the jam cleat sailer1950 was talking about.

On the standing rigging, I took another look at why the forestay appeared to be so short. I think that when I connected the shroud adjusters to the chain plates, I did not pay attention to if the wire shrouds were twisted.
This time I made sure there was no twist and I was able to connect the forestay directly to the bow chain plate.
As suggested I took a look at a lot of photos and my mast did look like it was raked back pretty far. I went up one hole on the shroud adjusters and tightened the forestay turnbuckle. The turnbuckle no longer looks like it is at the end of it's adjustment. I used SS cotter pins to secure it and will pick up some tape to wrap it.

I also added a topping lift for the boom since I will be spending a week at a time with the boat at a dock while on vacation.

Joe mentioned using a "buntline" knott. I found "Animated Knots by Grog" for my iPhone. That taught me how to tie the buntline knott. Neat app.

I also dropped the keel to check the keel pivit bolt and wire block. Looked good. Will drop it again over the winter to refinish and replace the wire with amsteel line.

I had a blast at the ASA 101 course I took. More than 5.5 hrs each day on the Barnegat Bay in a 23' O'Day. We had winds from 10 to 15 with one day having gusts to 20.

Last weekend I spent doing the above work. Hoping the weather is good for sailing this weekend. 3 day weekend and the Newport is ready to go.

Thanks everyone!

 

[Joe]

Alright Ward........ sounds like you're ready to reap the benefits of all this preparation... Have a blast out there....