Sails on in New England Winter?

[Al - s/v Persephone]

Once again, I'm faced with unbending my sails for Winter storage, flaking and scrunching them into packets that will fit in sailbags.Once again I'm wondering why I should so torture them by inducing the Dacron to "remember" folds in places contrary to good flaking when they're bent-on in the Spring, again.They're 8.8oz Marblehead Weave and made by Doyle - a 300sq-ft 110% jib and a 500sq-ft all-full-battened, 3-reefed mainsail. Both are sun-covered, with the mainsail in a cheap imitation of a Stack-pack that tightly zips around it.They are in excellent shape after 3 years and 4700nm, and I'd like to preserve them. I have no option for indoor storage, so they'll experience Newburyport Winter temperatures either in sailbags stuffed in my sail locker (like the past 2 Winters), or bent-on and covered.(I'd de-rig and flake/coil, cover and store below my lines to avoid our weak sunshine and the more important hazard of freezing of water between the braid.)I understand that many folks take the opportunity to send them back to the sailmaker, and that the extra windage of a roller-furled headsail can increase the probability of the boat being blown off the hard stands if we ever had a Winter hurricane.However, my only options are as stated above. And. I pride myself on the tight, wrinkle-free furling of my little jib and its extra wraps of jib-sheets. Ive experienced too many 50kt on-the-beam winds at dockside to worry about the windage in any of the kinds of storms I've experienced here in 5 Winters.So, what are the risks that I'm overlooking (other than frowns from traditionalists)?Anyone here have any applicable first-hand experience, or seen any neighbors taught any expensive lessons for trying this? I've only seen one guy do this here a couple of years ago, but he was a slob who did little to take care of his much-abused boat. Not a role model for me Fair winds,Al

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

dirt worse than folding

Storing them bent on as you described with whatever dirt and salt has collected can easily promote mold and mildew as well as weather-related damage. There are plenty of lofts in your area who can properly clean and store them for you and any flaking system for a 500 sqft main will easily control flaking once they go back on. You might also check with your insurance underwriter as leaving sails on may constitute improper lay-up and void your coverage.

 

[Maine Sail]

If you can afford the boat...

Do yourself a favor and remove them, fold them, and store them properly. Acid rain, freeze cold, freeze melt, freeze melt, rodents, acid rain, pollutants, dust, dirt, moisture, mold, mildew, wind, added windage to a boat on jack stands or a cradle not to mention the left over salt from the sailing season that attracts moisture... I'll stop now as you get the point.. If the mold a mildew don't kill the sails the continuous exposure to dust, pollutants, freezing and thawing and acid rain will.... My loft charges me $30.00 to fold and store each of my sails for the winter in a temperature & humidity controlled & rodent proof room.If you can afford to even own a boat you can certainly afford the $60.00 +/- to properly care for the sails & store them in a dry climate. If you truly can't afford that it's time to swallow the anchor and give it up....Sorry to be so harsh but this sounds like a good case of laziness or cheap-skate-itis....

 

[Al - s/v Persephone]

Heated storage option

I'm a slip-dweller, and am pretty careful to do a fresh water hose-down of everything after most day-sailing sessions. (And that's all I've been doing for the past 2 months after my last Maine cruise, with the exception of an overnighter. This past weekend was beautiful out by the Isles of Shoals and down by Cape Ann.) Persephone's usually docked 3.5nm up the Merrimac River, so such fresh water rinsing is not wasted effort due to salt spray from every passing fresh breeze, as in some more open, pure salt water ports.But, I suppose there could always be some residual salt up on the sails, even if there's none on the stainless steel at deck level.I have, however, for each of the past two years just done a rinse before unbending and storage (in a cold sail locker - after drying), and have had absolutely no mildew.Doyle certainly did well by me in making these custom sails (from their best available Dacron), and I am trying to avoid abuse - not work or expense. They have a lovely shape, even reefed, and work well from 3 to 30kts. Even 8 turns on the jib has a sufficiently decent shape to let me point to 28 degrees at 30kts when 3-reefed. (Although I do have to use the lazy sheet as a Barber-hauler. The suit also includes an 850sq-ft APC chute of 0.5oz Nylon for our more usual light airs.)The effects of freezing cycles were what I was thinking of as possible contra-indicators. But people whose knowledge of sail cloth I respect have poo-pooed that as an issue for 8.8oz Type 52 Dacron anywhere outside Antarctica. (It's Challenge Sailcloth's "Marbelhead Weave.")I had asked two years ago because of worries about the much tighter folding required to bag them and my resulting concern before the first time I stored them in the boat's sail locker.However, I guess the freezing and expansion of rain or melt water might be a problem with them bent-on. I'll have to look further into that.Has anyone here had experience with Dacron fibre breakdown from icing on the sails in winter sailing? (I wouldn't mind trying a _little_ Winter sailing, but the docks and moorings get pulled and there's no anchoring here. Besides, I like to inspect and clean what's below the waterline and am not a scuba diver )I was well aware of the inspection and restoration services Doyle offered, but hadn't heard of a loft actually providing heated storage space. Doesn't sound like a good revenue-per-square foot vs cutting sails, but if you've gotten it from your loft, maybe I can from mine. Who/where is your loft?Neither money nor effort was the issue. (I put more of each into Persephone than the Admiral thinks justified.) I just don't like being told to mindlessly follow rituals because "everybody does it," when I don't see a factual basis. (Look how long it took Eurpeans to actually try to eat a tomato, which "everyone knew" was poisonous. )My issue is the fact that for two years running, my sails have had creases where they shouldn't, due to storage in their bags at winter temperatures. Those folds are indeed "manageable" with my (very effective) lazy jacks, but each year it took a couple of weeks of hand re-flaking after every sail to get back to the (perhaps too fussy) flaking folds I prefer when leaving the boat.I usually single-hand, and the Dacron's memory of those "too-fussy" folds (and a down-haul) make reefing and dropping a snap. I don't have to leave the cockpit to gather-in and sail-tie "left-overs" that can be caught by the wind.(It's often Force 6 before the 3rd reef, and I regularly take it in without heading-up to beat to death a flogging mainsail. The Tides Marine track and slides help, of course. <g>)It took the same time before I could no longer see wrinklres in my jib.Maybe heated storage, even with the "unnatural" folds, would be a good option.I'll look into whether Doyle would actually store them for me, not just inspect and service (which I'd planned to have them do in March). Maybe the temperature would make the Dacron fold-memory problem less of an issue.I'm still curious to hear any actual experiences of bent-on Winter sail storage.

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

the "other" road

It really sounds like you prefer to follow a different logic than everyone else. Virtually all lofts have heated storage and frankly, your concern about folds seems to me to be an excuse, no offense intended. These aren't mylar sails. Please let us know how they survive the winter

 

[Al - s/v Persephone]

You caught me

I would really like to try a contrary approach if I thought it was sound, but I'm not sure I have the conviction to do it without reinforcement .That's why I'm asking if anyone here has successfully done it. I'd still like to hear from anyone who has.If I get a credible story from someone who does it, I'd like to see what happens. I think it will be absolutely nothing, but am obviously not sure.Barring that, if Doyle will store them for me at room temperature down in Salem (new home of their original Marblehead loft) I'll probably do that - even stuffed into their bags. I'll be having them inspect them, anyway.Otherwise, without finding someone who successfully did it (other than the slob to whiom I referred before), I guess I'll do what I usually do, followed by a Doyle inspection in March.Please don't be insulted, but all I've heard so far have been the usual "common knowledge" about vaguely possible hazards. I realize that prudent sailors benefit from the experience of others, but have you actually experienced any of them?My sails aren't covered with dirt nor mildew, and are reasonably well cared for.I realize "they aren't Mylar." They're much tougher and will last longer.That's why I considered trying this. They aren't el Cheapos, but extra-strength, best-quality Type 52, at the sailmaker's specific recommendation and are custom-designed with heavily-reinforced construction by Robbie Doyle's loft.After 3 years and 4700nm of single-handed cruising (sometimes with passengers, but not real crew) from mid-coast Maine to Buzzards Bay, from Force 2 to Force 7, they still have great shapes - no bagging. Not racing sails, but I love 'em.And the material memory folds are not "an excuse" for not scrunching these sails into cold storage. Each of the past 2 Springs I've been annoyed by them for the first 2 weeks of May sailing. They aren't actual creases, but they really bother me and I don't see how they can be beneficial. My sails are so nicely furled right now, both tightly sun-covered with nice big flakes on the mainsail, that I hate to do it to them. Maybe I'm just fighting Winter withdrawl. (Persephone's the last sailboat still in here, so I know I'm a bit of a die-hard. For some reason nobody else but the Coast Guard 47-footer was out beyond the bar on Veterans' Day Sunday <g>) A nice sail out to the Isles of Shoals on Saturday would probably be a decent cure, so I don't want to be too hasty in unbending the sails <g>.

 

[cephius (Dave)]

Minnesota -10 F

Al,My winter storage method is to pull the boom with sail and sail cover still in place.The boom goes in the cabin. Out of the wind and sun, but not heated.My mast comes down, H260 trailer boat, so I keep the jib rolled on and disconnect the furling extension from the mast. The extension is then "coiled" into a 4' loop, jib and all (a two person job.) This also goes into the cabin.Come spring the main has the same folds it did all the sailing season.

 

[Al - s/v Persephone]

That's neat, Dave! Thanks.

Thanks for speaking up, Dave.Our Winter temperatures are semi-tropical, compared to yours.It sounds like you've achieved exactly what I'd like to accomplish.However, I think I'll use a variation on your theme. My boat's a bit bigger (36), and I won't try single-handedly pushing 16ft of Selden boom-plus-sail into the cabin. I imagine I could really mess up my cabin interior doing it.I had a sufficiently "interesting" time just re-attaching the gooseneck while on a 2-reefed beam reach west of Cape Small this September. It may be Aluminum, but it's heavy - even held up by lazy jacks, topping lift and reefing lines.(The retaining pin's retaining clip had came off and allowed the retaining pin to drop out, and the pivot pin to work out on the way down from Boothbay Harbor to Baily's Island in Casco Bay. Ahh..., Swedish engineering. My wife wasn't pleased with my coachroof dance - harness and tether notwitstanding. <g> )I think I'll just use two layers of plastic tarp boom tents to protect it with the mainsail furled and zipped into its wrap-around sun cover. (I didn't like the scratching the skirt of the shrink-wrapping left on the gelcoat in a prior year.) All the reefing lines and lazy jacks will be de-rigged and stored.Since the (lesser) jib wrinkles aren't as much of an annoyance, I may just bag and store it with the bagged spinnaker to avoid tempting Aeolus into big blows.Thanks again.There's nothing like data from first-hand experience.Fair winds,Al

 

[Paul Akers]

Don't Do It Alone, Al.

That boom (with the sail) my be very heavy. Get someone or two to help you! Then you can simply take the jib off rather easily (NOT on the hard, of course).

 

[Al - s/v Persephone]

Thanks, Paul. That was my conclusion,.too.

I usually try to find ways to accomplish everything single-handed.That's the way I've bent-on the sails in the past 3 years, and I use a Top Climber to avoid the need for help when going up the mast to inspect rigging.Flaking, folding and bagging the 500sq-ft mainsail on the coachroof in the past two years has been tricky. But, I just accepted the fact that the breeze would undo the process midway through a number of times and I'd just have to stick with it. The jib is smaller and easier to do on the foredeck.So, given the loose-boom experience I described above, I concluded that the boom tent solution would allow me to leave the boom attached and the sail nevertheless protected.You're definitely right about the hazards of man-handling that boom alone!When I reattached the goosneck (at a sheltered dock), I rigged the spionnaker sheets downward from the boom's lazy jack cleats and aft to my sheet winches. The topping lift held the aft end of the boom up and made the boom push forward against them, while the main halyard (and its winch) supported the forward end. The spinnaker sheets also provided the ability to rotate the boom about its long axis.With a few iterations on the 3 winches, I was able to effortlessly adjust the boom position and angle so precisely that the tab slid right between the forks on the goosneck with the pivot pin lined-up perfectly with the throughholes. I like figuring out jury rigs like that to allow me to single-handedly do necessary boat tasks, but I think the boom tent idea is better in this case.Fair winds,Al

 

[Maine Sail]

If it's the creases...

If it's the creases you're concerned about then take them to Doyle or any loft and have them rolled, some racing friends of mine do this. The then wrap them in tyvek house wrap and hang them in the garage from the ceiling with no creases... You must surely have flaking folds and I'm surprised they don't bother you...

 

[Al - s/v Persephone]

It's the (proper) folds I'm trying to keep

As I'm sure you know, the "memory" property of the Dacron tends to prejudice the way the sail comes down between the lazy jacks, so that after awhile the sail flakes the same alternating way each time.Once I've so "trained" the sail (by always rearranging/refolding the folds before closing up the mainsail cover after every sail), I don't like to have to make it "un-learn" the Winter storage folds and then re-train it to the preferred ones so it performs well in reefing or coming down.Especially in Force 6 or higher conditions, I've found that it makes my single-handing life easier to not have to tame errant folds slopping off the boom.When using a full hoist mainsail in lighter airs, I always reef my way down, one step at a time, before dropping sail, to ensure proper flaking. (That also allows me to raise sail directly to the 3rd reef without first going higher in heavy air - which, truth be known, was why I started doing it. I always reef my way up and reef my way down - especially in heavy weather.)Just as racers have various fussy techniques for speed advantage, single-handed cruisers try to delelop ones that give them their kind of advantages.This just happens to be one of mine.

 

[RichH]

Roll them if you must

I have Marblehead ~9.8oz. and dont have a problem folding for storage nor having the creases stacked on the a lazyjacked boom. ... and Im probably fussier than you since I make my own sails. The memory is not in the fibers per se but the plasticizer thats rolled/calendered into the fabric ... once you crease it, the crease (actually - the slightly weakened plasticizer) is there forever; thats why its always better to roll up a sail for storage. But but but you do have to face the fact that eventually the sail will eventually lose its 'relative stiffness', even with a 'hard racing finish' and then its going to become 'floppy'. The only way I can perceive to keep such folds clean neat and crisp is not use the sail.

 

[Al - s/v Persephone]

Jib off - mainsail on

Thanks to all for your inputs.After reflection, I decided to focus my experiment on the mainsail, and unbent the jib and bagged it, as usual.I re-inspected the flaking of the mainsail and zipped-up its tight, wrap-around sunbrella cover, after which I installed the tarp.The tarp's side grommets are lashed to the three grab rails that run along each side of Persephone's coach roof, and its corner ties secured to lashing points that make it a tight, steeply sloped "pup-tent" over the boom and sailcover. I have extra ties under the boom between the end edge grommets closest to the boom both forward and aft, to maximize the tarp coverage on the side surfaces of the sailcover.(All done single-handed, of course. <g> )Just in time for today's snow/ice/rain storm, with forecast gusts up to 40kts.Now we'll just have to see.Fair winds,Al