Spent today (Sunday) on Lake Erie. Beautiful day, great winds, superb sailing! However, at one point I felt that my boat (small fixed keel boat -- Hunter 18.5) was overpowered by the winds -- roughly 20 knots or so. Only my wife and I were on board, and she wasn't feeling all that well. So, I decided that instead of trying to reef the main (I'm not that familiar with reefing while underway, but have sailed with a reefed main, and the boat sails beautifully that way -- they say that one should reef these boats early). Anyhow, for me it was too late to reef, so I decided to just lower the jib (I have a CDI roller furling jib). This made me feel much better on the boat (I'm a bit of a chicken sailor) and I thought she sailed well. I began to wonder, though, what I was losing by sailing this little sloop with a main only. Why is it better to sail with a double reef and working jib instead of just a full main? I suspect that I can not point into the wind as well without the jib, and that does seem to be the case. As far as today was concerned though, I wasn't heading into the wind, but on a broad reach. Does anyone else out there ever sail with only the main in stronger winds? Is this good or bad, and why? You rarely see anyone sailing with only the mainsail, even in heavier weather, and I wonder why since it's easier to furl in the jib than go through the hassles of reefing. Thanks for the sailing lesson, it is appreciated.
- Status
Another ?: How's about only the Jib?
I have sailed with only the main also, on my small boat and in a 35' Beneteau in Tortola. All seemed OK. I could steer OK & didn't do anything real bad. But how about instead sailing only with the jib? I saw a posting on a bulletin board about this, maybe here, not sure. What are the thoughts about jib only sailing in a strong breeze?
I have sailed with only the main also, on my small boat and in a 35' Beneteau in Tortola. All seemed OK. I could steer OK & didn't do anything real bad. But how about instead sailing only with the jib? I saw a posting on a bulletin board about this, maybe here, not sure. What are the thoughts about jib only sailing in a strong breeze?
Another thought
Sail with jib, main or both. Just depends how much energy I have and how long I'll be out. If it feels good do it.
Sail with jib, main or both. Just depends how much energy I have and how long I'll be out. If it feels good do it.
Heeling and Weather Helm
Reefing the main is supposed to correct two problems--excessive heeling and excessive weather helm. Reducing the sail area by furling the genoa should help with the excessive heeling, but it will likely make your weather helm worse. Without getting too technical (and confusing myself as well) the force of the wind tries to rotate the boat as well as make it heel. The wind hitting the genoa will generally try to turn the boat to leeward; the wind hitting the main will generally try to turn it to windward. Usually the boat designer will try to keep these rotational forces reasonably in balance (hull shape and keel factored in as well) but with a slight weather helm. When the wind blows harder, the force on the main tries to turn the boat into the wind (ie weather helm). If you furl the genoa the counterbalancing force is eliminated and will make the weather helm stronger and the boat harder to control. Learning to reef while underway is important for your safety and will make your wife more comfortable sailing as well. Good luck!
Reefing the main is supposed to correct two problems--excessive heeling and excessive weather helm. Reducing the sail area by furling the genoa should help with the excessive heeling, but it will likely make your weather helm worse. Without getting too technical (and confusing myself as well) the force of the wind tries to rotate the boat as well as make it heel. The wind hitting the genoa will generally try to turn the boat to leeward; the wind hitting the main will generally try to turn it to windward. Usually the boat designer will try to keep these rotational forces reasonably in balance (hull shape and keel factored in as well) but with a slight weather helm. When the wind blows harder, the force on the main tries to turn the boat into the wind (ie weather helm). If you furl the genoa the counterbalancing force is eliminated and will make the weather helm stronger and the boat harder to control. Learning to reef while underway is important for your safety and will make your wife more comfortable sailing as well. Good luck!
Sailor's Choice
On my 340, I can balance the boat better to avoid pressure on the rudder if I furl the jib and reef the main. However, depending on the conditions and what needs to be done in what period of time, I may sail with just the jib, or maybe just a reefed main. But it depends. <grin>
On my 340, I can balance the boat better to avoid pressure on the rudder if I furl the jib and reef the main. However, depending on the conditions and what needs to be done in what period of time, I may sail with just the jib, or maybe just a reefed main. But it depends. <grin>
Experiment!
It's a good idea to try different sail combinations in different conditions to get a better idea how your particular boat reacts... I've had trouble getting the bow through a tack with just a jib up on lighter boats. However, on boats with more natural weather helm I've been comfortable with a double reefed main and full 135% jib in over 20k wind... so it just depends on how your boat sails. The best way to find out what works the best under different conditions is to just keep trying different sail combinations... and have fun doing it! Trevor
It's a good idea to try different sail combinations in different conditions to get a better idea how your particular boat reacts... I've had trouble getting the bow through a tack with just a jib up on lighter boats. However, on boats with more natural weather helm I've been comfortable with a double reefed main and full 135% jib in over 20k wind... so it just depends on how your boat sails. The best way to find out what works the best under different conditions is to just keep trying different sail combinations... and have fun doing it! Trevor
I agree with experimenting
Last Saturday I was out single-handing my H23 in 20 kts with gusts. Even with a reefed main, traveler eased way down and playing the mainsheet like a maniac in the puffs, it was a real challenge to keep the boat going where I wanted. Several times I had both hands on the tiller trying to stay on course (beam reach) and keep the boat from rounding up. The roar from the rudder dragging through the water was deafening! And yes, I have adjusted my mast to take out the excessive rake, I tightened my rig months ago and I was riding the cockpit coaming like a jockey the whole time with a death grip on the tiller extension. My conclusions? The H23 is light, and once it heels to where the lee rail is buried and spray starts blowing over the windward side, the hull shape underwater creates a huge amount of weather helm. Maybe I need a new main or at least a second set of reef points in my main so I can reduce the heel. Of course, my other problem is that I can't convince anybody who saw me (I was in a race) that I was not having a good time, probably because of the huge grin of delight that was pasted on my face the whole time!! I will definitely try sailing with the main alone next time. Peter S/V Raven
Last Saturday I was out single-handing my H23 in 20 kts with gusts. Even with a reefed main, traveler eased way down and playing the mainsheet like a maniac in the puffs, it was a real challenge to keep the boat going where I wanted. Several times I had both hands on the tiller trying to stay on course (beam reach) and keep the boat from rounding up. The roar from the rudder dragging through the water was deafening! And yes, I have adjusted my mast to take out the excessive rake, I tightened my rig months ago and I was riding the cockpit coaming like a jockey the whole time with a death grip on the tiller extension. My conclusions? The H23 is light, and once it heels to where the lee rail is buried and spray starts blowing over the windward side, the hull shape underwater creates a huge amount of weather helm. Maybe I need a new main or at least a second set of reef points in my main so I can reduce the heel. Of course, my other problem is that I can't convince anybody who saw me (I was in a race) that I was not having a good time, probably because of the huge grin of delight that was pasted on my face the whole time!! I will definitely try sailing with the main alone next time. Peter S/V Raven
Think about where your going
For cruising singlehanded, I find it easier to furl the head sail and go with the main only (29.5 with roachy main). However, on a long downwind run in a narrow channel, a lot of jib-whoa may not be fun so I would probably go jib alone. I have some friends that still argue about whether or not a masthead rig should be sailed jib alone. Oh well, what works is what gets you there.
For cruising singlehanded, I find it easier to furl the head sail and go with the main only (29.5 with roachy main). However, on a long downwind run in a narrow channel, a lot of jib-whoa may not be fun so I would probably go jib alone. I have some friends that still argue about whether or not a masthead rig should be sailed jib alone. Oh well, what works is what gets you there.
Reefing under way
I usually sail solo and usually wait too long to reef. When I do find the boat too wild with wind I have found through trial & error a faily easy & unscary way to reef the main. 1. turn towards the wind (get within 20 or 30 degrees of the source) the closer, the easier to reef. 2. as you approach the wind, furl the jib (temporarily) 3. ease out on the main sheet to take the power off the main. If you havent approached the source of the wind closely enough, your boom will be too far out of the boat for part 5. 4. lower the main until the reef lines approximate the boom. 5. tie off the reef points. 6. set the out haul for the reefed main 7. raise the main if neccessary 8. fall off the wind and sheet in the main. hey you're sailing again with a flatter more docileboat. 9. let out part or all of the jib.... then refurl it because you should have left it where it was. if you are sailing solo you will have realized the value of an auto helm by now. have fun.......... Joe
I usually sail solo and usually wait too long to reef. When I do find the boat too wild with wind I have found through trial & error a faily easy & unscary way to reef the main. 1. turn towards the wind (get within 20 or 30 degrees of the source) the closer, the easier to reef. 2. as you approach the wind, furl the jib (temporarily) 3. ease out on the main sheet to take the power off the main. If you havent approached the source of the wind closely enough, your boom will be too far out of the boat for part 5. 4. lower the main until the reef lines approximate the boom. 5. tie off the reef points. 6. set the out haul for the reefed main 7. raise the main if neccessary 8. fall off the wind and sheet in the main. hey you're sailing again with a flatter more docileboat. 9. let out part or all of the jib.... then refurl it because you should have left it where it was. if you are sailing solo you will have realized the value of an auto helm by now. have fun.......... Joe
Heaving to?
This i an interesting thread. I'm rather new at this, and would like to know if it's a good idea to heave to when reefing the main. Ideas?
This i an interesting thread. I'm rather new at this, and would like to know if it's a good idea to heave to when reefing the main. Ideas?
Heave to--Yes!
Heaving to is in my opinion the best way to reef while out on the water. Bring the bow through the wind as in tacking, but don't release the genoa sheet. The genoa will then be backwinded and will try to push the bow of the boat to leeward. Brake the wheel hard to windward (or tie the tiller ). This creates a situation in which the rudder fights the genoa and with a little fiddling, you can get the boat in balance. The boat will then ride quietly (you'll be amazed the first time you do this) a few degrees off the wind and will slowly drift downwind. This is also a great heavy weather tactic. With the boat in balance in the heave to position, ease out the main sheet until the main luffs. At that point drop the main to the desired reef point. Incidentally, it's a great idea to mark the halyard at the point it goes through the halyard brake or cleat when the main is in it's reef positions. That way you'll know when it's time to stop feeding out halyard. Secure the halyard and the reef line. Tighten the main sheet. Release the sheet on the backwinded genoa, and bring in the genoa sheet on the new leeward side. You're under way with the main now reefed. Good luck!
Heaving to is in my opinion the best way to reef while out on the water. Bring the bow through the wind as in tacking, but don't release the genoa sheet. The genoa will then be backwinded and will try to push the bow of the boat to leeward. Brake the wheel hard to windward (or tie the tiller ). This creates a situation in which the rudder fights the genoa and with a little fiddling, you can get the boat in balance. The boat will then ride quietly (you'll be amazed the first time you do this) a few degrees off the wind and will slowly drift downwind. This is also a great heavy weather tactic. With the boat in balance in the heave to position, ease out the main sheet until the main luffs. At that point drop the main to the desired reef point. Incidentally, it's a great idea to mark the halyard at the point it goes through the halyard brake or cleat when the main is in it's reef positions. That way you'll know when it's time to stop feeding out halyard. Secure the halyard and the reef line. Tighten the main sheet. Release the sheet on the backwinded genoa, and bring in the genoa sheet on the new leeward side. You're under way with the main now reefed. Good luck!
Main Only
Peter, I also sail an 18.5 and have had the same questions. We sail on a relatively small lake (a tear drop compared to Lake Eire) and winds are constantly shifting. I have sailed with reefed main and full jib, and also just main. As the other threads have said the boat seems more balanced with jib and reefed main, but to me it is more comfortable with just the main. Have you determined how far you can heel and still feel in control? I have the feeling the boat will heel sharply and then set in a groove, but I don't have the nerve to see if that is true. Anyone have any experience with the 18.5? Thanks.
Peter, I also sail an 18.5 and have had the same questions. We sail on a relatively small lake (a tear drop compared to Lake Eire) and winds are constantly shifting. I have sailed with reefed main and full jib, and also just main. As the other threads have said the boat seems more balanced with jib and reefed main, but to me it is more comfortable with just the main. Have you determined how far you can heel and still feel in control? I have the feeling the boat will heel sharply and then set in a groove, but I don't have the nerve to see if that is true. Anyone have any experience with the 18.5? Thanks.
No groove on the 170
Can't speak about the H18.5, but the H170 will go right over, and then some, in a strong gust. Still can't find that missing hat!
Can't speak about the H18.5, but the H170 will go right over, and then some, in a strong gust. Still can't find that missing hat!
'What are you loosing....?'
When you asked "What am I loosing when sailing under main alone" one thing I would suggest is 'money'! Look at it this way: if the sail is overcanvased, i.e., over loaded with wind power, the canvas (dacron) will stretch and in time will cause the sail to loose it's shape. At that point one can get the sail 'recut' - costing money, or buy a new one - costing money. Hence, reefing early and not sailing overcanvased will save bucks. Yea, it's work to reef, but, just think of all the good exercise you get!!
When you asked "What am I loosing when sailing under main alone" one thing I would suggest is 'money'! Look at it this way: if the sail is overcanvased, i.e., over loaded with wind power, the canvas (dacron) will stretch and in time will cause the sail to loose it's shape. At that point one can get the sail 'recut' - costing money, or buy a new one - costing money. Hence, reefing early and not sailing overcanvased will save bucks. Yea, it's work to reef, but, just think of all the good exercise you get!!
Heave to, to reef? Yes!
While I don't have a Hunter (I am pondering getting either a 23.5/240 or 26/260), I agree that heaving to is the best and safest way to reef on the water. I took a 5 day cruising course and heaving to then reefing was taught as the safest way. Heaving to is also a great way to "park" the boat to take a swim, eat lunch, etc.
While I don't have a Hunter (I am pondering getting either a 23.5/240 or 26/260), I agree that heaving to is the best and safest way to reef on the water. I took a 5 day cruising course and heaving to then reefing was taught as the safest way. Heaving to is also a great way to "park" the boat to take a swim, eat lunch, etc.
Heave to, yes & no
David makes some good points on heaving to, but I've got to disagree about swimming. I don't think it would be prudent to swim off a boat while heaved to. It would be easy for the boat to drift away faster than the swimmer can swim. If you want to swim, drop the hook.
David makes some good points on heaving to, but I've got to disagree about swimming. I don't think it would be prudent to swim off a boat while heaved to. It would be easy for the boat to drift away faster than the swimmer can swim. If you want to swim, drop the hook.
Reefing while hove-to; some limitations
Heaving-to has always been one of my most favorite problem-solving tricks at sea. However, under normal conditions reefing should not have to be a problem and although heaving-to is generally an effective approach to reefing it is rarely the most efficient and therefore can hardly be recommended as the standard offshore reefing procedure. Besides being more laborious and time-consuming than the approaches which do not require stopping the vessel, the heave-to approach to reefing has serious limitations in all situations where the bow of the hove-to vessel refuses to point close to the wind, e.g. due to poor alignment of wind and waves, a large baggy jib or a relatively small, inefficient rudder. Normally, putting some tension on the mainsheet is one of the most effective ways of bringing the bow up into the wind in the hove-to position. Unfortunately, the main needs to luff when attempting to reef...... So, why not simply let the boom far enough out to let the main luff even with the bow refusing to point into the wind? Well, the backswept spreaders of the B&R rig will make sure that the main is plastered over spreaders and shrouds well before it luffs and forcefully trying to reef a plastered main is a recipe for damaging the sail, especially in strong winds. Even with conventional rigging you have to push the boom out a long ways if the bow refuses to point and you would be well advised to stabilize that boom with a foreguy so it can"t slam back into the cockpit if a big wave rolls the boat. So, it all tends to get a bit more complicated than you may want to have to deal with on a routine basis. Flying Dutchman
Heaving-to has always been one of my most favorite problem-solving tricks at sea. However, under normal conditions reefing should not have to be a problem and although heaving-to is generally an effective approach to reefing it is rarely the most efficient and therefore can hardly be recommended as the standard offshore reefing procedure. Besides being more laborious and time-consuming than the approaches which do not require stopping the vessel, the heave-to approach to reefing has serious limitations in all situations where the bow of the hove-to vessel refuses to point close to the wind, e.g. due to poor alignment of wind and waves, a large baggy jib or a relatively small, inefficient rudder. Normally, putting some tension on the mainsheet is one of the most effective ways of bringing the bow up into the wind in the hove-to position. Unfortunately, the main needs to luff when attempting to reef...... So, why not simply let the boom far enough out to let the main luff even with the bow refusing to point into the wind? Well, the backswept spreaders of the B&R rig will make sure that the main is plastered over spreaders and shrouds well before it luffs and forcefully trying to reef a plastered main is a recipe for damaging the sail, especially in strong winds. Even with conventional rigging you have to push the boom out a long ways if the bow refuses to point and you would be well advised to stabilize that boom with a foreguy so it can"t slam back into the cockpit if a big wave rolls the boat. So, it all tends to get a bit more complicated than you may want to have to deal with on a routine basis. Flying Dutchman
Experimenting..The Sequel
I was out yesterday in similar wind conditions to the week before (15 to 20 kts, gusting to 25). This time I was under the reefed main with no jib. No problem, mon...except I was making less than 3 knots. So I shook the reef out and the boatspeed jumped to over 4 kts. Yeah mon! The boat heeled a little more in the puffs but the helm was still light. Cool runnings, mon! Later in the day as the wind eased, I hoisted the jib and we rolled along at close to 6 kts with a nice, easy ride. Lessons learned: a) the H23 sails fine under main alone, b) on the H23, heel causes more weather helm than an unbalanced sailplan, so drop the jib if the wind pipes up c) time spent sailing in less than perfect weather is valuable d) I need to check the mast track and the sheaves, because I can't get the main up or down unless the boat is near head to wind. BTW, I am a big advocate of heaving-to, but I don't think the H23 does it all that well. I think the wing keel may be too small. Peter S/V Raven
I was out yesterday in similar wind conditions to the week before (15 to 20 kts, gusting to 25). This time I was under the reefed main with no jib. No problem, mon...except I was making less than 3 knots. So I shook the reef out and the boatspeed jumped to over 4 kts. Yeah mon! The boat heeled a little more in the puffs but the helm was still light. Cool runnings, mon! Later in the day as the wind eased, I hoisted the jib and we rolled along at close to 6 kts with a nice, easy ride. Lessons learned: a) the H23 sails fine under main alone, b) on the H23, heel causes more weather helm than an unbalanced sailplan, so drop the jib if the wind pipes up c) time spent sailing in less than perfect weather is valuable d) I need to check the mast track and the sheaves, because I can't get the main up or down unless the boat is near head to wind. BTW, I am a big advocate of heaving-to, but I don't think the H23 does it all that well. I think the wing keel may be too small. Peter S/V Raven
- Status