What is the story on sailing with the headsail alone? I have read and heard that you can damage the mast, put undue strain on the stays etc. When asking the Catalina Company I was told that it is no problem to sail with the headsail alone - sure is easier than raising the mainsail for a quick sunset cruise?
- Status
Jib Only
Sure, why not. We do it all the time. Nonsense about "extra" stress. If only one sail is up, as compared to two, how can there be more stress? Single sails, whether the jib or main, are great alternatives when it's too windy. Many sailors in the Caribean do it, especially downwind. Jib alone will also get you upwind. Try it, you'll like it!!!
Sure, why not. We do it all the time. Nonsense about "extra" stress. If only one sail is up, as compared to two, how can there be more stress? Single sails, whether the jib or main, are great alternatives when it's too windy. Many sailors in the Caribean do it, especially downwind. Jib alone will also get you upwind. Try it, you'll like it!!!
Absolutely not nonsense - on some boats
You need to look at your rig. If you have double lower shrouds or swept upper shrouds you may be ok. If not, look out. The issue that that shock loading the genoa without the main for balance gets the mast 'pumping.' If the middle of the mast bows forward, no problem. If the middle of the mast bows aft, the mast can snap. My boat has double lowers and I sail with my genoa only at times. Just be careful. Justin - O'day Owners' Web
You need to look at your rig. If you have double lower shrouds or swept upper shrouds you may be ok. If not, look out. The issue that that shock loading the genoa without the main for balance gets the mast 'pumping.' If the middle of the mast bows forward, no problem. If the middle of the mast bows aft, the mast can snap. My boat has double lowers and I sail with my genoa only at times. Just be careful. Justin - O'day Owners' Web
headsails alone
Joel; Sailing with the genny alone puts a different load on the rig that it was designed for, but in moderate winds I don't think it's a problem. I sailed my C-30 with a genny and I sail my Ben 40 with just a genny more often than not. Just be careful and don't do it in heavy air.
Joel; Sailing with the genny alone puts a different load on the rig that it was designed for, but in moderate winds I don't think it's a problem. I sailed my C-30 with a genny and I sail my Ben 40 with just a genny more often than not. Just be careful and don't do it in heavy air.
Not a great idea on a fractional rig,
A mast head rig shouldn't be a problem but a fractional rig does put a lot of stress on the mast under headsail alone. Cruising World had an article a ways back about it if I'm not mistaken.
A mast head rig shouldn't be a problem but a fractional rig does put a lot of stress on the mast under headsail alone. Cruising World had an article a ways back about it if I'm not mistaken.
Again
"Just be careful and don't do it in heavy air." That's one of the reasons why you CAN sail with just a jib. When it's blowing hard, sailing with one sail can be much safer. Please explain why a boat can be sailed with just a main, but not a jib? Don't two sails put MORE stress on the rig?
"Just be careful and don't do it in heavy air." That's one of the reasons why you CAN sail with just a jib. When it's blowing hard, sailing with one sail can be much safer. Please explain why a boat can be sailed with just a main, but not a jib? Don't two sails put MORE stress on the rig?
Yes but stress is on both sides of the mast, not
just one side. This is espescially true if you don't have forward lowers. A fractional rig accentuates the issue. Too much canvas up is a problem regardless of where the canvas is. Either a full main alone or a full jib up alone in 50 kts would be too much. A question of balance, power and load distribution. The load of the mian is much closer to the mast and not on the forestay was my recollection.
just one side. This is espescially true if you don't have forward lowers. A fractional rig accentuates the issue. Too much canvas up is a problem regardless of where the canvas is. Either a full main alone or a full jib up alone in 50 kts would be too much. A question of balance, power and load distribution. The load of the mian is much closer to the mast and not on the forestay was my recollection.
I would think
the jib attaches just to the top of the mort while the main attaches from top to bottom-spreading the load.
the jib attaches just to the top of the mort while the main attaches from top to bottom-spreading the load.
Pumping mast
Mike is right. While your boat is in the slip, and assuming you don't have a furling jib, go to the foredeck and pluck the forestay like a harp. Watch the mast. On smaller boats there might be some movement. On larger, you won't see a thing. Now hang from the forestay with all your weight and measure the amount of mast deflection. Now add a force to the forestay that represents the amount of load on your jib in a 25 knot breeze. Think about the forces being exerted on the forestay, the mast deflection, and then imagine the boat in heavy seas, pounding into the waves. The loading and unloading of the forestay as the boat gets thrown around can set up a motion in the mast referred to as pumping that can cause the mast to fail. The main sail under load doesn't exert stress the same way a jib does. The main is attached to the mast, not the rigging. When the jib is under load, forces are transmitted to the mast at the connection point of the jibstay only, up high, where there is the least amount of support from other rigging. When the main is under load, the forces are transmitted to the mast in decreasing amounts as you go up the mast. Much of the load is lower, where there is more strength in the extrusion, and more support from rigging. Apples and oranges. The risks are higher in boats with masts out of column, or boats with masts that are raked aft. The length of extrusion above the spreaders is bent back, under load, and failures can occur at the spreaders. There are many rigging shops in the SF Area. Stick you head in the door of several and ask their opinion.
Mike is right. While your boat is in the slip, and assuming you don't have a furling jib, go to the foredeck and pluck the forestay like a harp. Watch the mast. On smaller boats there might be some movement. On larger, you won't see a thing. Now hang from the forestay with all your weight and measure the amount of mast deflection. Now add a force to the forestay that represents the amount of load on your jib in a 25 knot breeze. Think about the forces being exerted on the forestay, the mast deflection, and then imagine the boat in heavy seas, pounding into the waves. The loading and unloading of the forestay as the boat gets thrown around can set up a motion in the mast referred to as pumping that can cause the mast to fail. The main sail under load doesn't exert stress the same way a jib does. The main is attached to the mast, not the rigging. When the jib is under load, forces are transmitted to the mast at the connection point of the jibstay only, up high, where there is the least amount of support from other rigging. When the main is under load, the forces are transmitted to the mast in decreasing amounts as you go up the mast. Much of the load is lower, where there is more strength in the extrusion, and more support from rigging. Apples and oranges. The risks are higher in boats with masts out of column, or boats with masts that are raked aft. The length of extrusion above the spreaders is bent back, under load, and failures can occur at the spreaders. There are many rigging shops in the SF Area. Stick you head in the door of several and ask their opinion.
Weather helm.
A lot of people seem to like sailing with the roller-furling jib out by itself. The potential problem is not stress on the mast (whoever said such a thing?) but sailing performance. In theory you will have two basic problems. One, if the jib is something like a 125 or less you will have trouble keeping the boat pointed. There isn't enough sail area aft of the mast to 'weather-vane' you into the wind enough. I'd be surprised if with a small jib you could hold 45 degrees. Maybe I'm wrong. Two, with a bigger jib like a 170 and no main up you will actually have WEATHER HELM on a tack. You'll wonder why this is so and insist there is something else wrong, but in reality having all that jib area aft of the mast will actually 'weather-vane' you around very well, and then you'll be fighting to hold it OFF the wind. I know a lot of people just suffer through this to the point where they barely care if it's a problem. The fact is that a sloop is designed to sail under both sails. I think it's ironic that for years people avoided using the jib because, shorthanded, they didn't want to tack it. (J Boats actually used to advertise that the fractional-rig dinghylike J-24 was "nifty" to "zip around" the harbor under main alone-- and it is). I think the issue with larger boats is that many people are uncomfortable with reefing or furling the main under way. If it looks like any kind of weather out there, they'll go with the roller-furling jib alone and rely on being able to reduce sail quickly and from the safety of the cockpit. In gusty weather I am sure anyone's boat could appear to sail adequately under the job alone; but I am sure you would see performance greatly improved, both in speed and handling, with the boat's proper sail plan used as intended. *BTW-- I would not be surprised if in the near future we see a trend by boatbuilders driven most recently by their marketing departments, such as Hunter, to small-main/big-jib boats, like a 33-footer having an 8-foot boom with a tall narrow main and a J measurement of about 20 ft with one or two big roller-furling jibs in there. Mid-boom sheeting would not be a problem on such a small main and you could even have the bimini up under the Radar arch all the time. Given a big enough engine and generator to run the AC and the deep-freeze and the microwave, it really wouldn't matter what the sailing characteristics were, would it? JC
A lot of people seem to like sailing with the roller-furling jib out by itself. The potential problem is not stress on the mast (whoever said such a thing?) but sailing performance. In theory you will have two basic problems. One, if the jib is something like a 125 or less you will have trouble keeping the boat pointed. There isn't enough sail area aft of the mast to 'weather-vane' you into the wind enough. I'd be surprised if with a small jib you could hold 45 degrees. Maybe I'm wrong. Two, with a bigger jib like a 170 and no main up you will actually have WEATHER HELM on a tack. You'll wonder why this is so and insist there is something else wrong, but in reality having all that jib area aft of the mast will actually 'weather-vane' you around very well, and then you'll be fighting to hold it OFF the wind. I know a lot of people just suffer through this to the point where they barely care if it's a problem. The fact is that a sloop is designed to sail under both sails. I think it's ironic that for years people avoided using the jib because, shorthanded, they didn't want to tack it. (J Boats actually used to advertise that the fractional-rig dinghylike J-24 was "nifty" to "zip around" the harbor under main alone-- and it is). I think the issue with larger boats is that many people are uncomfortable with reefing or furling the main under way. If it looks like any kind of weather out there, they'll go with the roller-furling jib alone and rely on being able to reduce sail quickly and from the safety of the cockpit. In gusty weather I am sure anyone's boat could appear to sail adequately under the job alone; but I am sure you would see performance greatly improved, both in speed and handling, with the boat's proper sail plan used as intended. *BTW-- I would not be surprised if in the near future we see a trend by boatbuilders driven most recently by their marketing departments, such as Hunter, to small-main/big-jib boats, like a 33-footer having an 8-foot boom with a tall narrow main and a J measurement of about 20 ft with one or two big roller-furling jibs in there. Mid-boom sheeting would not be a problem on such a small main and you could even have the bimini up under the Radar arch all the time. Given a big enough engine and generator to run the AC and the deep-freeze and the microwave, it really wouldn't matter what the sailing characteristics were, would it? JC
Ignorance is bliss
Put your jib up in moderate air, tie your tiller to maintain a course, and let go. Climb your boom, hang from your rigging, throwing your weight to steer. My Hunter 23 is an oversized sailboard...let the physicists stay home and figure out how this will create disaster while you discover extasy, and prove them wrong. Go sailing, and when it breaks, fix it. Mark Major, s/v Lesismor, 86H23
Put your jib up in moderate air, tie your tiller to maintain a course, and let go. Climb your boom, hang from your rigging, throwing your weight to steer. My Hunter 23 is an oversized sailboard...let the physicists stay home and figure out how this will create disaster while you discover extasy, and prove them wrong. Go sailing, and when it breaks, fix it. Mark Major, s/v Lesismor, 86H23
I depends on the boat and the rig
My H235 with the B&R rig ( No backstay, small genny, large main) is terrible with just a jib. But it sails great with just the main or just the reefed main. A Catalina 22 with its standard rig with a backstay, large genoa, and small main will sail much better with just a jib. It is not something you can generalize about except to say that all sloops balance better with two smaller sails that one sail. I'd talk to others who have your exact model of boat and see what they do. And I'd try it out in lidl conditions and see how it looks and how it works.
My H235 with the B&R rig ( No backstay, small genny, large main) is terrible with just a jib. But it sails great with just the main or just the reefed main. A Catalina 22 with its standard rig with a backstay, large genoa, and small main will sail much better with just a jib. It is not something you can generalize about except to say that all sloops balance better with two smaller sails that one sail. I'd talk to others who have your exact model of boat and see what they do. And I'd try it out in lidl conditions and see how it looks and how it works.
storm jib
I have seen some literature to the effect that in a really big blow, just having a small storm jib up can be a way to run at waves on a near beam reach, thus maintaining headway without risking a knock-down. An awfully lot of boats won't point or tack with just a jib, though. And some won't tack well on just a main alone. My own thought is that if you are day sailing and can't get by on a reefed main and a partially furled jib (or a storm jib), then it's probably time to go home.
I have seen some literature to the effect that in a really big blow, just having a small storm jib up can be a way to run at waves on a near beam reach, thus maintaining headway without risking a knock-down. An awfully lot of boats won't point or tack with just a jib, though. And some won't tack well on just a main alone. My own thought is that if you are day sailing and can't get by on a reefed main and a partially furled jib (or a storm jib), then it's probably time to go home.
Balanced sailplan is a no brainer...
I can tell you about a first hand experience in attempting to sail an Ericson 29' with only a jib sail up, under the stars, about 12-miles north of Havana in VERY confused 6-9' seas. While the owner slept I attempted to keep within a very narrow groove between rounding-up and backing the jib versus getting blown off--only to round back into a 360-degree circle. This went on for a couple of hours while waiting for a daylight entry to Marina Hemingway in the 98 Havana Cup. When I finally got the help to raise the main to only the second reef, it balanced completely and I regained control. I don't know about the structural engineering of the standing rigging....but this tired sailor could definately attest to the virtues of balancing of the sailplan.
I can tell you about a first hand experience in attempting to sail an Ericson 29' with only a jib sail up, under the stars, about 12-miles north of Havana in VERY confused 6-9' seas. While the owner slept I attempted to keep within a very narrow groove between rounding-up and backing the jib versus getting blown off--only to round back into a 360-degree circle. This went on for a couple of hours while waiting for a daylight entry to Marina Hemingway in the 98 Havana Cup. When I finally got the help to raise the main to only the second reef, it balanced completely and I regained control. I don't know about the structural engineering of the standing rigging....but this tired sailor could definately attest to the virtues of balancing of the sailplan.
Double headsail rig...
...I am really enjoying this thread. Lots of experience speaking. While I tend to agree that jib alone sailing seems more of a convenience issue rather than that of performance... I keep thinking of the many offshore sailing and cruising experts that advocate the use of twin headsails, set wing on wing, for downwind sailing. This being an alternative to using a spinnaker. Question: where does the double headsail rig fit into this argument.
...I am really enjoying this thread. Lots of experience speaking. While I tend to agree that jib alone sailing seems more of a convenience issue rather than that of performance... I keep thinking of the many offshore sailing and cruising experts that advocate the use of twin headsails, set wing on wing, for downwind sailing. This being an alternative to using a spinnaker. Question: where does the double headsail rig fit into this argument.
let me do some math...
2 sails vs. 1 sail? Hmm, hard to believe that 1 sail would put more pressure on the rig then 2 would. After all, you aren't putting up a larger sail then you normally would. I am pretty sure your headsail alone will be fine.
2 sails vs. 1 sail? Hmm, hard to believe that 1 sail would put more pressure on the rig then 2 would. After all, you aren't putting up a larger sail then you normally would. I am pretty sure your headsail alone will be fine.
Scientific theory vs. engineering practice
is what this argument sounds like. There is a school of thought that says the main is attached to the mast along its entire length and thus supports the mast on the aft side continuously from gooseneck to truck, with the support being proportional to the load at any incremental point. With no sail up, all the support for the mast from behind is on the backstay, perhaps the topping lift on the boom through the mainsheet and the shrouds. In strict fore and aft load dispersal, the load on the backstay is exactly the same as that on the forestay, making allowance for different angles and lengths. The load on the main and the support it gives to the mast is not so because the force on the main is not aft but forward. The resultant force on the main no matter how close hauled is always forward or the boat is going astern. Same with the jib whether the main is set or not. So you do not have a problem when flying only the jib that the mast will be deprived of support from aft. You can get the mast out of column, of course, but proper rig tuning should obviate that problem. At rest, the force on the mast is downward. Underway, it will still be downward regardless of what sails you are flying. If it is out of column, the downward force can cause it to buckle. But the upshot of all this discussion is that I have never heard of a mast buckling because only the jib was flown. Has anyone else?
is what this argument sounds like. There is a school of thought that says the main is attached to the mast along its entire length and thus supports the mast on the aft side continuously from gooseneck to truck, with the support being proportional to the load at any incremental point. With no sail up, all the support for the mast from behind is on the backstay, perhaps the topping lift on the boom through the mainsheet and the shrouds. In strict fore and aft load dispersal, the load on the backstay is exactly the same as that on the forestay, making allowance for different angles and lengths. The load on the main and the support it gives to the mast is not so because the force on the main is not aft but forward. The resultant force on the main no matter how close hauled is always forward or the boat is going astern. Same with the jib whether the main is set or not. So you do not have a problem when flying only the jib that the mast will be deprived of support from aft. You can get the mast out of column, of course, but proper rig tuning should obviate that problem. At rest, the force on the mast is downward. Underway, it will still be downward regardless of what sails you are flying. If it is out of column, the downward force can cause it to buckle. But the upshot of all this discussion is that I have never heard of a mast buckling because only the jib was flown. Has anyone else?
1. Double headsails. 2. Jibstay tension.
1. Flying two headsails wing-and-wing off two headstays or from both sides of a headstay foil has been a widely-accepted practice in offshore downwind sailing for years. I first encountered this reading 'Dove' when Robin Lee Graham ordered his Allied 33 rigged as a cutter to have two headstays. He sailed home to California from the BVI with the two jibs up more often than with main and one of them. Obviously the big thing to watch is the inadvertent jibe; but this is being done for very steady trade-wind conditions and for when you can set a course and forget it for a while (must not be too big a problem because singlehanders sleep even while flying this rig). 2. Even if the mainsail itself is flown off the boltrope track in the spar, the mast itself is still being 'supported' (as someone put it) by the stays alone, and there are shrouds and a headstay and backstay on that, most of which come from the very top. As I see it the sail is given some degree of rigidity but the spar itself is no less securely stressed whether you fly one sail from the boltrope groove or one sail from the headstay. The unbelievers may witness staysail schooners such as the Cherubini 48: two masts, two headsails, one main. No unsound stress there. In 1970 the 127-ft Vendrei 13 sailed the OSTAR with three masts, three (roller-furling) jibs, one main. Last I heard that boat at 30 yrs + is still going strong in charter in the Caribbean. JC
1. Flying two headsails wing-and-wing off two headstays or from both sides of a headstay foil has been a widely-accepted practice in offshore downwind sailing for years. I first encountered this reading 'Dove' when Robin Lee Graham ordered his Allied 33 rigged as a cutter to have two headstays. He sailed home to California from the BVI with the two jibs up more often than with main and one of them. Obviously the big thing to watch is the inadvertent jibe; but this is being done for very steady trade-wind conditions and for when you can set a course and forget it for a while (must not be too big a problem because singlehanders sleep even while flying this rig). 2. Even if the mainsail itself is flown off the boltrope track in the spar, the mast itself is still being 'supported' (as someone put it) by the stays alone, and there are shrouds and a headstay and backstay on that, most of which come from the very top. As I see it the sail is given some degree of rigidity but the spar itself is no less securely stressed whether you fly one sail from the boltrope groove or one sail from the headstay. The unbelievers may witness staysail schooners such as the Cherubini 48: two masts, two headsails, one main. No unsound stress there. In 1970 the 127-ft Vendrei 13 sailed the OSTAR with three masts, three (roller-furling) jibs, one main. Last I heard that boat at 30 yrs + is still going strong in charter in the Caribbean. JC
- Status