Sailing the H27 in a big blow...what happened??

[puddlejockey]

Good Morning, All!

We took our H27 , "Muskrat Love" ,out Monday afternoon in some pretty tough conditions, and had a few things go on that A: I'd like to understand and B: i REALLY need to know how to handle if I find myself in that situation again.

But first, to save everyone some time; the recriminations and lambasting: I Should NEVER have taken the boat out under those conditions as an inexperienced sailor, I should have trusted my instincts rather than the advice of another ( far more experienced) boat owner and stayed at the dock; there's no way I should have put my passengers in that situation, I never should have gotten a haircut on sale, and I can't wear brown pants and a blue shirt together under any circumstances. But I'm guilty on all counts, so lets at least try to learn something from it and move on...

We went out under a wind forecast of 15-20 mph winds with gusts to 25; on the advice of others that we could leave the main down and unfurl a portion of the jib to serve as a storm jib. The winds were very inconsistent and shifting about 30 degrees in their direction. We were on an inland lake at a point about 2 miles wide, trying to sail closer to the windward shore to provide some protection.

I'm pretty sure we had too much sail out (99.99% sure); we had a scary severe amount of lean on the boat, almost wetting the toe rail on the port side, while on a broad beam reach; almost a downwind run, rolling along at 4.5 knots with nothing flying but about 2/3 of the jib. Trying to round up into the wind to reduce some sail, a few things happened: First, even with the jib sheet let out to spill air, turning the boat INTO the wind would bring the boat over even further as the wind was full "abeam"; and really create a pretty traumatic Jibe. However, when trying to "ease" the sheets to reduce that trauma, the sail would take shape the second there was any tension on either sheet at all, and really start to bring us around....all the way around.

The boat would act as if the keel had no bite at all, and we'd find ourselves completing an almost 360* circle and sailing back again on the point that I didn't want any part of.

SO: here are my thoughts: please help!

1: best choice would've been to stay at the marina, but I'm wondering if we would've been better off using the main at the 2nd reef point, rather than trying to partially unfurl the jib? It would've been about the same amount of canvas, but down lower to the boat, and more easily controlled in heavy weather.

2: My plan was to use the trees on the windward shore to protect us, but I was also watching the waves to give me an indicator of wind speed and direction. Is it possible that this somehow backfired on me?? I'm wondering if the treeline and shore may have kept the waves down, and we were in effect sailing in heavier weather 20 feet off the water than what we saw on the surface action.

3: Even under motor and heading back in, the wind would heel the boat over a good 5 degrees or so with no sail showing. Does that sound like 25 mph? I'm wondering if it wasn't more like 35..

4: Assuming that I screw up again, whats the best plan for getting rid of all that sail AFTER it shouldn't have ever been raised, when the only way to turn into the wind is to jibe the boat?

5: Whats the deal with sailing in doughnuts?? In order to keep my crew and passenger stress level down" I simply said "Woohoo! This is fun!...how about letting out that sheet some for me? " ..but inside I was screaming..and I may have peed a tiny bit ...

So again, my plan is NOT to go out under those conditions again. But if it happens ...any advice? We had a Hell of a time, but only because we survived. Dying has a way of really bringing down the overall experience for everyone...

 

[Kermit]

This is something that could happen even if you had motored out in calm conditions. I'm interested to see what advice others give. Sounds to me that the best thing you did was not to show how over-your-head you felt. Good thing you were wearing your yellow pants! ;-)

I got in over my head once in a 12.5' catamaran in Charleston Harbor with my First Mate on board. I didn't panic but was really concerned since I had not experienced those conditions. The boat swamped but stayed upright. It was months later before I could admit to her that I was scared. She probably would have never sailed again if I had not remained (outwardly) calm.

 

[John T1594]

Ain't fun

Conditions like that are no fun! It's all work and worry and can put your boat and crew at risk so just don't go out when it's blowing that hard. I'm always amazed at my motor boating friends who come up to be at the dock when its blowing 25+ and say "What a great day for sailing, when are you going out"

 

[FourPoints]

Not knowing what generation of boat you have makes it a little hard to answer since there is a 5-6k lbs difference in displacement across the generations, and some are mast head rigs, some are fractional. Regardless of which boat you have, sailing under the (double?) reefed main would probably have been a better idea.

 

[RichH]

If your H27 has a short 'shoal keel' and if you press too hard with too much sail up in high wind conditions and are sailing above a beam reach or are attempting to 'point', the short shoal keel will sometimes suddenly lose 'bite' and the boat will 'SKID' off to leeward, sometimes causing 'doughnuts'. What you will feel is a sudden unexpected increase in helm pressure, then experience (if youre watching) either a SKID off to leeward or a sudden 'broach TO' where the wind is coming from.
Once a boat starts to radically SKID off to leeward the rudder can cavitate or 'ventilate' (suck air down along side the rudder) and then rudder can also lose ALL control and become 'invisible' to the CE-CLR relationship ... sudden and unexpected 'automatic' tack !!!!!!!!!! Watch that stern wake (the wake 'turbulence' from the keel/rudder); it 'should' be streaming almost straight back; if not, its time to deep reef ... or tighten the backstay PLUS reef 'deeper'.

With a short keeled boat (and deep keeled boats too) ... when you feel an increasing pressure on the helm, always look at the stern wake ... and if its not coming off somewhat straight off the stern but at a perceptible angle away from the boat's centerline ... its time to reef deeper as the boat is now 'skidding' off to leeward !!!!!!!!

Doing 'doughnuts' in a shoal keeled H27 is 'traditional' when there is too much sail area up in too much wind .... watch that stern wake.

A too loose forestay, (backstay tension) will also make such a situation MUCH worse. For HIGH wind conditions, set that backstay at about 25% tension; normal tension for 12-15kts. is ~15% tension !!!!!!
http://www.ftp.tognews.com/GoogleFiles/Matching Luff Hollow.pdf

 

[anchorclanker]

Just to give some data to this event, I checked the NOAA wesite for Mooresville, NC. On the 3 day history from Concord regional airport, the winds on Monday, April 1, between noon, and 7M, ranged from 8 to 13 mph with gusts from 16 to 21 mph.

As Concord regional is to the south of Morresville, I also checked Hickory and Statesville regional airports and they reported similar wind conditions, though late in the afternoon Hicory recorded a gust to 30 mph.

As the information is updated hourly, as today progresses that early history will disappear. Anyone who cares to see that data themselves should do so immediately.

I think the point is that 15 knots is a lot stronger wind than most of us care to admit, so we up the numbers so it sounds more manly. 15 is actually pretty stiff. I recall trying to learn crosswind landings and anything over 10 was almost impossible. Scarey actually. Was real eyeopening to read the owners manual for the 172 showed it able to handle a 15 knot crosswind component. Maybe with Joe test pilot with 10,000 hours in his log book, but not with this rookie at the controls. Those days trying to master that stuff made me much more appreciative of winds from 5 to 15 mph. I would have thought the winds were much higher had I not heard it directly from the horses mouth.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

puddlejockey;

You are probably on Lake Norman and I know it well. In fact a good friend of mine, Tim MrRory who runs the yard at All Seasons knows Hunter sailboats as well but does not really sail. That boat either came from one party or from me I would tend to think. IF you will send me an email to davecondon@mindspring.com to include your phone number, I will give you a call and we can have a long chat.

Do not be ashamed. All of us to include myself have gone out or got caught in heavy air at one time or another but when you are searching for advice, that sir shows humility but also a wise sailor to be careful in the future. With that said, I have alot of respect for those seeking help. I know the 27 very well and outsold all other dealers but it will depend if it is on the 1987 models and forward. I have sailed on a restored 1982 hunter 27 which I restored for the boy scouts in heavy air as well.

Crazy Dave Condon

p.s. do not be fooled by crazy as I use that so folks will remember me. Sometimes though, my wife who has to put up with me says that nickname is very appropiate. Har Har Har

 

[tomgrigsby]

I'm wonder if using the jib partially furled is a good idea for going upwind in those conditions. Assuming you have a masthead rig, without fully unfurling the jib, you'd have the driving force quite a bit forward of the keel centerline and it makes sense that you'd have terrible difficulty trying to point. It seems to me that a deeply reefed main and a partially furled jib would be a better combination in order to sail to windward.
I've been out with full genoa and main in my 30 in those conditions. I had the lee rail under a few times. Reefing the main and using my 100 jib (hank on sails) would have been a better choice, but she handled fairly. A few times a gust would round me up and I'd have to dump the main to get the bow off the wind, but all in all it was great fun. I would think the 27 would be fine in those conditions with a different sail plan setup. RichH may have a differing opinion, and if he does, listen to him.

 

[YVRguy]

As a sailing newbie I won't try to offer any advice but thanks for sharing your experience. I can certainly relate and I've had some similar experiences. One question: Were you not able to furl the head sail a little more? I know that some furlers are almost impossible to operate unless you're directly upwind. Thankfully mine seems to work even if the genoa is full of wind so I'm able to reduce headsail without changing course.

FWIW, I posted a question about sailing in heavy wind not long ago and got varying advice. Some suggested sailing with a reefed main and others preferred just a headsail. In the end I found the headsail to be preferable because it's easier to reduce if you find you're overpowered. Reefing is a great precaution but I was once knocked down in a boat with a double reefed main and no headsail.

 

[puddlejockey]

Thanks, all, for the advice and input.

FYI, it's an '82 H 27 with the "deep" keel . Dave, I'll certainly shoot you an email with my number when I get a chance! I love her. she's fat, she's cranky, but she looks good in blue and she's always game for a try...what else could you want?

Anchor; you make a great point about wind speed! ...and i was sailing on lake Norman, as others have mentioned; which I've already learned can be a tricky lake for varying wind conditions from one end to the other. The lake is also closer to Mooresville than anywhere else ( except maybe Terrell and/ or Cornelius) ; and the local city forecasts can be deceiving. With that lake, I've been told that often wind direction can play a big part; since the wind was blowing "down" the lake, it had about 9 miles of open water to funnel through before it got to me. I do wish I'd had a wind gauge; since I'm very familiar with wind conditions from other hobbies; and it was certainly above 20mph in the gusts. The forecast via another boaters weather radio was 15, with gust of 20-25..i assume mph??

To clarify, the boat would actually TURN almost 120* by the compass and head back down wind, with no bite to the rudder at all until it gained some forward momentum on the "wrong" tack...

 

[fifedog]

puddlejockey - What you got in that scenario is experience. I did the same thing, in the same boat, a couple of seasons ago...on purpose. I wanted to see how my H27 would react, and boy did I learn. But I also felt a whole lot better about my rigging and sticks afterwards.
Keep sailing.

 

[anchorclanker]

I took mine out last summer just to sail with jib only. I just wanted to go out and learn how to work it all by itself. Drove up to the boat, tossed everything in, motored out into the lake and put up the jib.

I screwed with the boat for almost an hour, frustrated I could do no better than a training run/weak broad reach. Each time I attempted to turn up into the wind, the boat slowed, the rudder stalled and she fell off down wind.

I was just about to give up when I noticed the keel was up. Holy cow what a difference letting that down made. I guess in the excitement of getting everything aboard and casting off, it slipped my mind. Not saying that was the case here, but for anyone else with a retractable keel, forgetting to put it down can making sailing anywhere but downwind very difficult if not impossible.