I am looking at buying a 1998 Benneteau Oceanis 461. I want to sail the Caribbean for the winter and then go over to the Mediterranean next April with the group that leaves Bermuda at that time. I have had some people tell me that the 1998 Benneteau Oceanis 461 is not a boat for offshore and that I should not get it if I plan to sail the ocean. Please tell me your thoughts and if you own one of similar size.
Sailing the Atlantic, yes or no?
- Thread starter sailingbluewaters
- Start date
Take a look at this blog:
http://capado.over-blog.com/
http://levoyagedecapado.blogspot.com/
Ado An Capuli, a young french couple. They circumnavigated in 2 years on this boat Capado (. Europe to Panama to Tahiti (30 days non Stop), to Australia, South Africa, Caribbean then the USA and back to Europe. No refrigerator on board...
I met them when they stopped at Annapolis Last year in May. I asked them what was the worst part of the trip.. Answer: Those Storms sailing down the Potomac from Washington DC.... She even mentioned that even the Indian Ocean was not so bad.....
Those people who say the Beneteau Oceanis is not for Offshore would probably say their boat is not even safe for coastal Navigation...
I believe most boats will endure more than their crews...
http://capado.over-blog.com/
http://levoyagedecapado.blogspot.com/
Ado An Capuli, a young french couple. They circumnavigated in 2 years on this boat Capado (. Europe to Panama to Tahiti (30 days non Stop), to Australia, South Africa, Caribbean then the USA and back to Europe. No refrigerator on board...
I met them when they stopped at Annapolis Last year in May. I asked them what was the worst part of the trip.. Answer: Those Storms sailing down the Potomac from Washington DC.... She even mentioned that even the Indian Ocean was not so bad.....
Those people who say the Beneteau Oceanis is not for Offshore would probably say their boat is not even safe for coastal Navigation...
I believe most boats will endure more than their crews...
Short of someone who has surveyed this particular 16 year old boat, you are not going to get a specific answer to your question on a forum. The 46 was an all oceans rated boat when new. In the hands of a neglectful owner or owners, especially out of a charter fleet it could be a mess. What is acceptable as a fail risk in coastal waters, and VHF hailing distance may not be acceptable in a transatlantic, or in the remote Caribbean. Bottom line, it isn't the model so much as it is the particular vessel and the crew skills, you are looking at a small portion of the question.
Not to rain on your picnic, but...
you don't mention your experience. As a former delivery captain who's "been out there", let me tell you the open Atlantic ain't the Caribbean! Island sailing is like lake sailing compared to the storms and conditions you encounter on the ocean. I'm hoping I'm wrong in assuming your experience, but I hate to see people venture into something they're not ready for.
As for the boat itself, I made a run in '93 from Annapolis to Puerto Rico on a '90 Jeanneau 50... a not so distant relative to your boat. I was amazed at how much abuse that boat took and came back looking for more.
I agree with another post here, listen to your surveyor!
you don't mention your experience. As a former delivery captain who's "been out there", let me tell you the open Atlantic ain't the Caribbean! Island sailing is like lake sailing compared to the storms and conditions you encounter on the ocean. I'm hoping I'm wrong in assuming your experience, but I hate to see people venture into something they're not ready for.
As for the boat itself, I made a run in '93 from Annapolis to Puerto Rico on a '90 Jeanneau 50... a not so distant relative to your boat. I was amazed at how much abuse that boat took and came back looking for more.
I agree with another post here, listen to your surveyor!
No doubt it can be done but as a relatively flat bottom boat, particularly forward of the keel, it will pound more than most, be uncomfortable compared to a boat destined for offshore sailing. Always use the proper tool for the job.
I agree that your experience is key to the success of this plan, and I wonder if someone with that necessary experience would be asking your question on a forum.
I truly believe i have the necessary skill required for a crossing, i also believe that getting some hint and opinion from other sailors on a forum can provide some good and bad info. The more the forward portion of a boat is flat the more it willbe rough, pick a bow that is more v shaped. Any boat can do it with proper preparation
A couple of years ago I encountered a delivery skipper at Santa Cruz Island who had just sailed down the CA coast from points north; I believe Seattle. He was in a Caliber 40. We chatted a bit about the Caliber and his trip down. The comment I remember most was where he said that it was nice, for once, not to have to make the delivery of a Catalina or Beneteau in the conditions he encountered on the way down. Low opinion of the general seaworthiness of those crafts. Didn't think too much of Bavarias either. If the people who have done Atlantic crossings don't think a Beneteau 46 is a good choice, then maybe it isn't. Somebody else's less critical opinion won't change that.
Yacht companies sell dreams to most buyers. The dream they sell you is that for half the cost of a true, quality, cruising yacht, you can buy theirs instead and still do all the same things. Maybe you can. But the high through-put production European boats such as Beneteau and Barvaria, and maybe add in a couple more, are built for the charter markets. They're made to take two to four couples on week long island tours in comfort, not to battle storm gales in the middle of the North Atlantic Ocean.
Yacht companies sell dreams to most buyers. The dream they sell you is that for half the cost of a true, quality, cruising yacht, you can buy theirs instead and still do all the same things. Maybe you can. But the high through-put production European boats such as Beneteau and Barvaria, and maybe add in a couple more, are built for the charter markets. They're made to take two to four couples on week long island tours in comfort, not to battle storm gales in the middle of the North Atlantic Ocean.
Having sailed many Bavaria, Beneteau, Jeanneau, and one Caliber I can say that while a Caliber is still enroute (valiantly battling gales I suppose), the others have arrived. In fact the longest month I spent at sea was the 6 days I spent aboard a Caliber. It puts the slow in sailing, struggling to point. Something like half its displacement is hanging under the saloon. Boat speed is a significant and under-appreciated sailboat safety factor - you can outflank the fight.
Well, maybe he had only one delivery that month (or year), so it didn't matter! Down-wind, swell, and current from Seattle to Santa Cruz Island. Nasty & cold out there at that time that year. We heard on the VHF repeated calls for sightings and/or information on a Catalina 27 skipper long overdue at San Diego in transit from San Francisco, feared lost.
If there is one thing I've learned from these forums, it's that there are as many opinions on a "suitable" offshore boat, as there are posters.
When I began sailing, there just weren't that many options out there; choices often came down to transom boats or double-enders, ketches or sloops, but they were all pretty much the same; slow, heavy, safe boats.
Today, people cross oceans on nearly every boat manufactured, whether considered a "blue water" boat by others, or not. And most get away with it; some don't. In the last month or so, I know of 2 boats abandoned offshore. A Beneteau and a Hans Christian. Vastly different vessels, to be sure.
The discussion is endless and there seems not to be a definitive answer. So what it comes down to for most, is sailing what each of us considers the best boat we can afford to go offshore on, when we feel we are ready. In some cases trusting to luck or the "get out of trouble free card", that so many are cashing in these days, when we find out we were not ready, or wrong about our choice of boat.
It is pretty much pointless to ask what sort of boat one should buy before one has enough experience to decide on what boat one needs. Once someone has enough experience sailing a variety of boats, in a variety of conditions, then it should be pretty easy to decide on what boats will suit their needs.
When I began sailing, there just weren't that many options out there; choices often came down to transom boats or double-enders, ketches or sloops, but they were all pretty much the same; slow, heavy, safe boats.
Today, people cross oceans on nearly every boat manufactured, whether considered a "blue water" boat by others, or not. And most get away with it; some don't. In the last month or so, I know of 2 boats abandoned offshore. A Beneteau and a Hans Christian. Vastly different vessels, to be sure.
The discussion is endless and there seems not to be a definitive answer. So what it comes down to for most, is sailing what each of us considers the best boat we can afford to go offshore on, when we feel we are ready. In some cases trusting to luck or the "get out of trouble free card", that so many are cashing in these days, when we find out we were not ready, or wrong about our choice of boat.
It is pretty much pointless to ask what sort of boat one should buy before one has enough experience to decide on what boat one needs. Once someone has enough experience sailing a variety of boats, in a variety of conditions, then it should be pretty easy to decide on what boats will suit their needs.
Wise advice. Thanks, capta...
If one visits www.cruisersforum.com and types in "bluewater," one shall gag at the nonsense.
Quite frankly, a Mac 26 has no business trying to go to Hawaii, but a West Wight Potter 19 did so a few years ago.
C'mon folks, many boats are simply built more heavily than others and have supporting structures to establish those "pedigrees."
A Hunter 49, the skipper who participated in this forum and eventually bought a Dutch barge, is a perfect example of brand-doesn't-make-a-yeah-or-nay-call on what's suitable or not.
I'm fine for coastal cruising on my boat, and have turned back five miles from the coast when heading out to The Farallones two years or so ago, having sailed there in idyllic conditions some four years earlier.
Try reading my "utter nonsense" reply post above. Same boat, sailed down all the way from Vancouver, BC to Mexico.
Horses for courses, but would I take a flat bottomed coastal cruiser across the North Atlantic? No blinkin' way.
Would I take a Beneteau 42 or + downwind from Europe to the Caribbean (like Columbus?) across the mid- or southern Atlantic? Perhaps.
Your boat, your choice.
"Bluewater?" You don't even need to go to CF, Google it. It'll leave ya laughin' all the way to the...???
If one visits www.cruisersforum.com and types in "bluewater," one shall gag at the nonsense.
Quite frankly, a Mac 26 has no business trying to go to Hawaii, but a West Wight Potter 19 did so a few years ago.
C'mon folks, many boats are simply built more heavily than others and have supporting structures to establish those "pedigrees."
A Hunter 49, the skipper who participated in this forum and eventually bought a Dutch barge, is a perfect example of brand-doesn't-make-a-yeah-or-nay-call on what's suitable or not.
I'm fine for coastal cruising on my boat, and have turned back five miles from the coast when heading out to The Farallones two years or so ago, having sailed there in idyllic conditions some four years earlier.
Try reading my "utter nonsense" reply post above. Same boat, sailed down all the way from Vancouver, BC to Mexico.
Horses for courses, but would I take a flat bottomed coastal cruiser across the North Atlantic? No blinkin' way.
Would I take a Beneteau 42 or + downwind from Europe to the Caribbean (like Columbus?) across the mid- or southern Atlantic? Perhaps.
Your boat, your choice.
"Bluewater?" You don't even need to go to CF, Google it. It'll leave ya laughin' all the way to the...???
I think people may believe they are "trusting their boat" of whatever ilk, or even believe that they are trusting themselves. What some, perhaps many, I believe are trusting now, however, is the technology that will lead to their rescue if they, or their boat, fails. Before GPS one had to know one's location (from traditional navigation) for relaying messages (HAM) for help, etc., or wait for a passing ship, etc. Now if you get in trouble, just phone-home on the sat phone and read it off one of the three GPS aboard, or push the button on the PLD, and the US Coast Guard, Navy, or that of some other government, will spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to come fetch you and the family off your sinking or disabled vessel to cheering crowds and news releases. Before all of that, sturdy, well-made safe offshore boats for offshore passages held the best promise for returning safely from cruising. Now, a cheaper, less capable boat armed to the gunnels with GPS technology is imagined to work the same magic.
KG, I both agree wholeheartedly with, and have some subtle issues with it.
The global distress system (GMDSS?) EXISTS for just such eventualities. It's called a "community" where folks in distress are offered assistance.
Our tax dollars and those of others nations and commercial organizations fund them and lend assistance.
Thinking that folks should "fend for themselves alone" is kinda like the idiots who thought Rebel Heart should have "paid" for their rescue.
That said, it is perhaps too often a situation where unprepared skippers take off and endanger themselves and others.
Heck, we all see it every weekend on our local waters with yahoos, why should it be any different "out there?"
The global distress system (GMDSS?) EXISTS for just such eventualities. It's called a "community" where folks in distress are offered assistance.
Our tax dollars and those of others nations and commercial organizations fund them and lend assistance.
Thinking that folks should "fend for themselves alone" is kinda like the idiots who thought Rebel Heart should have "paid" for their rescue.
That said, it is perhaps too often a situation where unprepared skippers take off and endanger themselves and others.
Heck, we all see it every weekend on our local waters with yahoos, why should it be any different "out there?"
Stu, you make a really good and important point - the boating slackers are pretty much evenly spread across the community, it is just that when Poppy neglects his maintenance or navigation requirements, runs aground, or takes an poorly skilled crew out in the sound we rarely see it highlighted on CNN. The experience becomes the lore of "the time we got towed in by TowBoatUS". When Kauffman attempts to essentially single-hand his first trip to Polynesia with two squalling kids and a nanny on an ill-prepared boat the risk margin increases, as do the consequences.
God blessed ol' Kauffman and his family with the USN and the 129th ANG responders, and that is wonderful. It was a miraculous recovery operation. But to say he got something for free is to ignore that Kauffman has most certainly purchased his last documented vessel, and certified himself incompetent before his wife and family. He is CAPT Mudd. He will be going to Tahiti on an airplane, if at all. That is a steep cost to pay, and he is paying it. But for every high-profile Kauffman, there has to be 5 inshore sailors who incompetently lose their boats on a shoal, or sunk at the dock, and quietly walk away from a pursuit they never really gave their all for - the cost unspoken, and largely unknown.
God blessed ol' Kauffman and his family with the USN and the 129th ANG responders, and that is wonderful. It was a miraculous recovery operation. But to say he got something for free is to ignore that Kauffman has most certainly purchased his last documented vessel, and certified himself incompetent before his wife and family. He is CAPT Mudd. He will be going to Tahiti on an airplane, if at all. That is a steep cost to pay, and he is paying it. But for every high-profile Kauffman, there has to be 5 inshore sailors who incompetently lose their boats on a shoal, or sunk at the dock, and quietly walk away from a pursuit they never really gave their all for - the cost unspoken, and largely unknown.
Not quite.
In this day of VERY accurate 3 day forecasts, and very fast boats, jib reaching at 10+ knots away from a storm on the right side is a very effective and common method of storm management.
At the end of the day its just another tool. NO-ONE wants to sail in a full-on storm. The faster your boat is, the better chance you have of getting out of the way.
I sure don't know where you are finding these "VERY accurate 3 day forecasts", but we've just gone through a week of unforecast winds of 35 to 40 knots, gusting to 47+, with the forecast winds of 15 to 20. As for running at 10+ knots, I think you are still dreaming a bit on the majority of the cruising yachts out there and honestly, I'd like to know how many 250+ mile days YOU'VE sailed. It's just not that easy to maintain that kind of speed on a short handed cruising boat, and I'm sure not letting any "mindless machine" steer MY boat at 10+ knots.
So I'd have to agree with Don S/V ILLusion on this one; planning to out run any weather system on a cruising yacht is not only "about the dumbest form of seamanship ever imagined", it's downright suicidal.