Sailing Litigation

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Mar 4, 2004
347
Hunter 37.5 Orcas Island, WA
In the letters section of this month's Latitude 38 magazine is a reference to someone who was a guest on a boat for a daysail and was injured and actually sued the skipper/owner afterwards because they got beat up a bit on the water and were swamped. Apparently the case settled out of court, but one of the key points was that the skipper went out when small craft warnings were up (OMG!). I do a LOT of reading of sailing books and magazines and this is the first time I've ever heard of a guest actually suing a skipper/owner. It's not like this was a big charter boat-- it was about a 25 foot sloop according to the letter. Anyone else ever heard of anything like this? Seems hard to imagine, but then again we do have a litigious society. The letter did not share all of the circumstances. How do you feel about the right of a guest to sue a sailboat's skipper/owner for perhaps bad judgment, inadequate boat prep or whatever? Gary Wyngarden S/V Wanderlust h37.5
 

Jenni

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May 24, 2007
89
Macgregor 26D Port Hope, ON
carefull

Well then we all know someone who isnt being invited along for another ride. Guess to be safe you should have all your crew sign a waver before getting on your boat.
 
Oct 2, 2006
1,517
Jboat J24 commack
?

i would like more facts :) It is not a very good idea to take out new people if there are warnings when you start the trip VS weather that might have changed during a trip I crewed on a Boat that did Long Island sound races for years ,during one of the spring races it picked up to over 50 MPH winds very early in the race and stayed that high He just had to finish that race VS turning back early and a few poeple myself included just did NOT crew anymore for him after that as his need to finish seemed more inportant than are saftey :( Tommays
 
Dec 2, 2003
4,245
- - Seabeck WA
Back in the 'old days'

:) Sorry, couldn't help it. Anyway picture this; New skipper; me. New 20 foot long sailboat. Not the fastest but my buddie had a 26 foot Rawson. The wind is blowing at GALE level. Perfect! A chance to feel some speed! Did I mention that this was 32 years ago? Anyway, after calling my buddie to borrow his boat instead of using my slower boat and calling my girl friend (ex-wife) for crew and removing the genoa from my boat to use as a reefed headsail on his boat, we fired-up his boat and pulled out of its slip. Did I mention that it was blowing like stink? White cap tops blowing off? No? His boat couldn't turn the corner out to open water. We were blown against the inside of the breakwater. Took ten minutes, or so, to muscle the boat enough to turn back into the marina proper. Whew! That's how I used to learn about stuff as a young man. Everything except skydiving. For that I took lessons. Still alive, not dumb. ;)
 
Sep 20, 2006
155
Hunter 49 Mystic CT
Skipper is master and commander

I'm not a big fan of lawsuits but the skipper does in fact have to meet a higher standard and accepts the responsibility for the safety of the guests/crew on board. A novice will depend on the skipper's reading of the situation. They presume that the skipper is knowledgeable and knows his vessels capability. The guest is for the most part putting their safety in those hands. Does the guest have any responsibility here? In my opinion, no. The skipper needs to take into consideration the skill level of his guests and crew for the conditions presented. The skipper bears the full responsibility of choosing when to sail and when not to. With the limited facts that were presented, Yea why not.
 
K

Karl

And select your insurance carrier even more wisely

Now you know why, when my agent asked if I wanted to increase my liability limits to from $250K to $500K for an additional $38 a year, I grabbed it!
 

higgs

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Aug 24, 2005
3,736
Nassau 34 Olcott, NY
Legal aspects of sailing

A number of years ago, Practical Sailor did a piece on skipper liability. I don't remember if they gave examples of cases, but they did indicate one could be liable for guests who injured themselves and urged care in docking, etc. Even being injured walking down the docks could bring skipper liability, if a skipper is aware of some trouble spots on a dock. i have been involved with sailing classes for many years, taking out adult students. If there are small craft advisories up, I always feel on the water sessions should be cancelled, even though those conditions do not stop me from going out.
 
Dec 2, 2003
4,245
- - Seabeck WA
Hey Karl! If you read my 'old days' post, you

know why I have a million dollar umbrella. ;)
 
Aug 21, 2006
203
Pearson 367 Alexandria, VA
I have an umbrella policy for this reason

It is a sad comment on our society but this is the reality of the time and place we live.... While this is not the only reason I have for having an umbrella insurance rider, it is a big consideration. Garner
 
Jun 1, 2005
772
Pearson 303 Robinhood, ME
Gary...

I think I will sue you for posting this article! I got O.J.'s lawyer, Rich
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Litigation is GOING to happen ..... Get used to it

Its all really dependent on the potential deep pockets value of the defendent (personal assets, value of insurance policy, etc. etc.), the pursuit of 'contingency fees' and the current case load of the contracted lawyer. As an example - The general 'sports' industry -- snow skiing, ice hockey, mountain climbing equipment manufacturers, etc. etc. has been under extreme assault by avaricious trial attorneys since the mid 1970s. To protect themselves from such legal plundering this industry has had to counter vigorously with countersuits, extreme risk managment processes, plastering their venues with declared waivers of 'lawyerspeak boilerplate':Caution do not let go of rope while rapelling more than 8 vertical feet; Caution - do not pull trigger while looking into barrel of gun; Caution - do not leave drivers seat when cruise control is engaged, etc. etc. ..... all reducing the 'value' of their sport industry to protect their asse(t)s. Such successful counterattack simply and quckly redirected the trial attornies towards other 'more productive (lucrative)' pursuits elsewhere; but, just like 'defense medicine' you pay through the nose to 'enjoy' such services. Have you recently noticed the distractive "lawyer crap" that now comes with the 'owners manual' of a new car --- has to EXCEED 50% of content of the operators manual for the CAR !!!!!!!!!!!!! Hmmmmm I thought I bought my auto with a 'Taupe' interior, whats with all these F'ing YELLOW STICKERS all over EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you have any tangible assets of any 'worth' and no matter how caring, careful, prudent you are ... youre simply a target to get sued. In a country that has the second highest per capita rate of lawyers to citizens the catastrophy of legal mugging will continue; only Chile has more lawyers per capita than the USA. Dont expect any legislature to correct this tragedy as most of the pols were/are lawyers. Most EU countries limit the numbers of practicing lawyers ... and simply do not have 6% of total GDP of the WHOLE USA going to direct and indirect 'legal costs'. Ive heard too many times that USA has a 'rule of law' ... Id like to sue someone because of the lack of 'truth of advertising' ... I'd like to offer that its become the "tyranny of avaricious lawyers" (for only a mere 6%). Been involved in too many depositions, trials .... and just like the infamous "Marco Island Anchoring Problem it all boils down to greed, money and power. So if you own a boat, have assets (fat insurance policy, etc.) you ARE DEFINITELY at high risk to get sued in todays litigation lottery. If youve bought any health, auto, boat, liability, etc. insurance lately you can appreciate the cost of prepaid legal defense even without 'going to court' as if you are last link in the chain of 'payment' you bear ALL the preceding costs of this defense. I reduce my personal risk by making it plain and simple and in writing (waiver) that if you or member of your family is an attorney, have ever sued for any purpose, etc. etc., you must assume ALL risk (hidden or otherwise including NEGLIGENCE on my part) .... you may not enter my property, boat, etc. without written signed waiver, hold me blameless (and defend) for any personal injury, etc. including acts or omissions caused including MY negligence. My trial attorney friends, etc. have signed the waiver, and without question ..... stating I'd be a fool not to get such a waiver signed. That ought to tell you something! Sure I think Im covered by insurance, etc. but then I lose all my valuable TIME and ENERGY just to defend against someone (and their lawyer) simply and frivolously playing the shyster LOTTERY. Make EVERYONE you come in contact with ASSUME their Personal risk, to protect your ass against some obscure inane case law settled in 1607 etc. .... and make EVERYONE sign a WAIVER. Until all the excess shysters in the USA are put into re-education camps --- protect your OWN ass. Too many lawyers not enough recipies. End of my biannual 'shyster' rant.
 

Grizz

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Jan 13, 2006
179
Hunter 28.5 Park Ridge, IL
Hey Fred: Was "Love on the Rocks"...

...on the charts when you had your adventure? SW Lake Michigan 'Beer Can' story, 15 years ago: pre-race, race and post-race festvities had concluded, a guest crew member (whatever THAT means) on another boat departed the marina and got in an accident 45 minutes later. Of course he sued the skipper of the boat he was a guest on. Yes, he was legally intoxicated. No, we don't know if he stopped somewhere in-between. Yes there were multiple injuries. And yes there was the now ubiquitous 'Out of Court Settlement'. That particular skipper, in no particular order, sold the boat, moved out of town and quit sailing. [oxymoron alert!] I think a really good lawyer could get around any signed waiver, because no one is responsible for anything!
 
Dec 2, 2003
4,245
- - Seabeck WA
As bad as our system is, think of Spanish law.

Under their system each person is responsible for their own safety. Watch out for the other guy. Rode in La Paz once. Didn't travel far before our taxi driver stopped. The road was gone. Someone dug it up and left. Nothing but a huge hole in the street and a pile of dirt next to it. No signs, tape or barriers. The hole looked to be 10 feet deep. No problem for the hole-digger under their system. You have to watch were you're going. As bad as our system is I'm not sure if I would trade. And speaking of O.J.! We are one of the few countries on Earth that use citizen juries. Most democracies use professional juries that have a CLUE! Grizz, unfortunately most of us know a story like that.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Maryland has a contributary negligence law

which means if I say to you "watch where you put your feet, there are holes in the dock " and you step in one anyway you contributed to your injury and must share the cost.
 
T

Tom S

Rich H. Reminds me of the thru hull manufacturers

I live in NJ, but the West marines around here that supply Groco products have to have a warning on their Bronze Through Hulls that "WARNING:Ingestion of this product has been known to cause cancer" Huh !? Whoever is stupid enough to chew on a Through Hull ? Maybe some of Darwins Natural Selection is needed here. What happened to personal responsibility I'd like to know more detail about exactly what happened in the story Gary is referring to. Maybe the Captain of the 25 foot sloop became Cap't Bligh and refused to turn around back into a Safe Harbor. How bad where the injuries? How and why did they happen? What was the settlement for? If it was just for medical bills to treat the injured crew then maybe it wasn't so bad. Maybe the crew member didn't have any health insurance and had to go to the hospital for a broken bone and has some medical bills staring him in the face. At this point I will reserve judgement, although I am totally behind personal responsibility and feel this country is getting weaker buy having people feel that someone needs to take care of them and not themselves
 

abe

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Jan 2, 2007
736
- - channel islands
Fred are you talking "Spanish" law or Mexican law.

..big difference. abe
 
Dec 2, 2003
4,245
- - Seabeck WA
Abe, sorry I'm late. Just saw your post.

Mexican. What's the big difference? The U.S. is based on English law and we're different but the principals are similar.
 
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