sailing into the wind

tommays · Jun 15, 2009

Well

What compass angles are you getting now between tacks 90 deg or more ?

BobM · Jun 15, 2009

Was your outboard out of the water (if possible)? That causes significant drag.
What did you have up for a headsail?
I assume your board was down?
What were the conditions? Were winds light?

Roger Long · Jun 15, 2009

Steve.Cook said:
I'm new to this (maybe that's the problem)...

That certainly would explain a lot. However, getting the most out of a boat going to windward is the part of sailing that takes the longest to get right. I'm still working on it after nearly half a century of sailing.

One thing to keep in mind, it ALWAYS looks like everyone else is pointing higher than you. Those little centerboard sloops are going to point way higher than you can though.

Going to windward is a very dynamic process. If you have one of those wind indicators with the little "V" of tails to show the approximate angle for sailing to windward, keeping the vane aligned with one will only get you a fraction of what the boat is capable of.

There is an article I wrote about sailing to windward under ideal conditions here.

http://www.pointseast.com/template.shtml?id=EEuApppyplMkENKsEG&style=story

These methods are very hard to apply in a small boat in the more turbulent flow near land and down near the waves but understanding them may be helpful. The basic thing to visualize is that sailing close hauled at maximum effeciency is not maintaining a precise angle to the wind but sailing a scalloped or wave like course in which you are slowly heading up closer to the wind and then quickly steering away at the first of several different signs that the boat is losing power. You sneak up on the wind and then almost jerk it back at the right moment, over and over and over. The jerk back is only a couple degrees so it doesn't feel like a jerk but has to be done quickly before the speed starts to decay.

The rest is having optimum sail trim and shape which is a huge subject in itself. Just a few inches in sheet setting can let another boat walk right by you.

Barnacle Bill · Jun 15, 2009

Might seem pretty elementary, but is your swing keel in the down position? If not, you will not be able to sail to weather very close. Sometimes one can forget this. Not sure what the other boats are, but perhaps their designs are such that they simply point better than a Catalina 22, which is a decent sailing boat, but not expected to point as high as many other boats. If you have a winged keel, then for sure you cannot expect to point very high because they are terrible underwater appendages that may allow you to sail in skinny water, but certainly do not do much for windward performance (even though they tell you they do). Other things allow a boat to sail better to weather in regards to sail trim, twist on the mainsail roach (or lack of it), easing off on the jib halyard to bring the draft aft which makes a flatter entry which helps pointing. One alters their course in reaction to apparent wind shifts to keep both luff tell tales pointing straight back on both sides of the headsail. If you are sailing in very heavy wind velocities, then you need to point a bit higher so that the inside tell tale is pointing up and the outside one is pointing straight aft - called feathering. A big old tubby cruising boat won't feather like a fin keeled J/boat, for example and remember that if you have a swing keeled C-22, it is not the most hydronamically shaped blade because of what it is made of and you cannot expect to sail as high or higher than a boat with a more efficient blade for a keel. Not sure what the underbody of your competition looks like.

Joe · Jun 15, 2009

Sounds like you're sailing out of Mission Bay, that's my home port. The fleet of boats that passed you were experienced racers that have their boats set up expertly and have very high quality sails. Probably out of Mission Bay Yacht Club.

So, my brother, now you have something to shoot for. Start studying the books, talking to more experienced sailors, taking a class. You are hooked.

The mission bay channel points exactly west (270 degrees true). When the wind is directly down the middle, I leave the motor on, jib down-main up, and power down the right side. On weekend there's lot's of traffic... so forget playing dodgeball with those yayhoos and just get out to the open water. The wind and current usually are a bit north of west so hoist your jib before the swells get too big, setting up for a starboard reach toward the red bouy. Leave your motor on till you're well clear.

If the wind is coming from the northwest(normal) or southwest(rare), then you can sail out on just 5 or 6 tacks with a series of long and short legs. Much easier and lots of fun.

I myself, love sailing in the ocean so I usually just motor out.... but it's great experience to make a lot of turns in relatively flat water when going out.

One thing you need to be aware of is the tidal current in the channel. Look at the small speed limit bouys in the channel and if the seaweed is flowing east, you'll be sailing against a 2-3 knot current. If the seaweed is flowing out... sailing out is a lot easier.
The current is less on the north side.

As far as getting your boat to point better... well... new sails really help. Weight placement, sail trim, strategy... all important. But the easiest thing is to make sure the bottom is clean..... and...... put some telltales on you headsail and mainsail. A windvane might help, but some yarn on the shrouds, and telltails on the sails will get easier and quicker results. You can buy those at the west marine express over by Dana Landing, just north of Quivera basin. Instructions are included.

Have a blast... I'm at Marina Village, J-15... Catalina 27.

breweraz · Jun 15, 2009

I beleive you have tiller steering on that boat. Whereas the earlier articles focused on reading the sails and trim as it should be, a good tool you have in your hand is the tiller. It provides a great feel for pinching in tight and running a tight line.

The feel of the tiller/rudder tells you exactly what the boat is doing and what you need to do. When the boat is right on the line it will hold just an edge of wetherhem pressure, when the winds changes or you cross the line, the pressure will ease off. Working your course direction to just the point where you feel the pressure on the tiller fall off and feathering your direction back and forth off that point will keep you as tight as you can go.

You can always sail tighter in heavier winds so when I see a gust coming, just as it hits the sails, I start easing tighter to wind. As the gust comes across you sails you can push the line as tight as possible before you lose that pressure. Everything at this point is a matter of touch and slight changes, wait for the boat to react, nothing dramatic or you will lose it all together, back wind the fore sail and/or end up snaking across the lake.

When you feel the tiller pressure lighten just slightly turn bear off, wait until you feel the presure return and adjust back and forth. Once you have got the feel you will be able to hold a fairly consistant and smooth power to the sails and maintain a fairly constant speed. If you are overreacting you will be powering and depowering the sails and watch the other sail by you.

As I am sure you know or are learning sailing is the art of being able to process multiple points of information and putting it all together. Thats the beauty of it all.

Tim

Franklin · Jun 15, 2009

if those are racing boats then you don't have a chance to point as high as them. There may be on piece of equipment they have that you don't, a vang, and that will make a hugh difference. The vang will pull down on the sail preventing it from spilling air. Bringing your boom down just 2 inches can make a lot of difference. This is the twist the previous poster was talking about.

Bad Obsession · Jun 16, 2009

A Catalina 22 is not a fast boat. It definitely isn't a racing boat. Who cares how fast you are going as long as you get there. Oh, I think that the Catalina 22s had a fixed keel on the bottom and it wasn't a centerboard (correct me if I am wrong). Either way, they won't really point that high either.

My Catalina 30 is a slow boat, so to speak. It gets passed all of the time by other 30's. I have a three blade cruising prop and it is a heavy and beamy cruiser that is loaded down. It gets there though and when I get there I have much more room than any other 30.

tommays · Jun 16, 2009

There are very active C22 race fleets all over the country so much in fact they have kept making the classic to keep a One design boat on the new market

Is a C22 going to outpoint a pure race boat NO BUT it will point pretty good compared to many a boat

biorapper · Jun 16, 2009

learn about tell tales and what they can tell you. Relative wind indicator is a good rough guide...but the tell tales are the fine tuning knob! Of course, desired sail shape (camber, etc.) depends on wind speed. Basic rough guide...light and strong winds; flatter sails...medium winds; more camber and fullness to em. You can also adjust a traveler (if you have one, which the 22 probably doesn't) and the position of the camber and thousands of other fine tuning

; but basic flatter/fuller sail, and knowing tell tales is a very good start.

Also, sometimes it can pay off to barber haul (pull in the windward jib line some...)if you need to pinch every bit of wind angle at the sacrifice of some boat speed.

RichH · Jun 16, 2009

Your answer can be found in: http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books/detail-books.htm?fno=400&sku=100&cat=1304 .... and is conveniently located on THIS website.
This booklet and its accompanying user charts will get you 'going' properly as a first step in the process of good sail trim, etc. Such is a good 'first step' in learning the magic art of 'sailboat handling'.

sinnettc · Jun 17, 2009

You might see if you can find another C22 owner local and get some tips. I've found that us sailing types are pretty friendlly for the most part.

http://www.catalina22.org/

Bad Obsession · Jun 17, 2009

I use to be a race and I know how to tweek my sails when need be. A lot of times my sails are somewhat out of trim and the autopilot is running. At those times I am cruising and I just don't care.

It does piss me off that I get passed and blown away by a few boats in my area. I know that one of them is a Lipencott 30 and it has a folding prop and a fin keel. The kicker is getting passed on a reach when I have just a bit more waterline and a lot more sail. Then again.....I have more room

When I sail and I am following a friend in a Catalina 34 I get murdered most of the time. Once in a while, in specific conditions, my boat walks away.

In the end, sailing upwind is something that is okay, but I would much rather be slightly off of the wind and let the autopilot run and just stand watch.

Joe · Jun 18, 2009

Steve, I'm not aware of any mast up storage on the bay unless you join the Mission Bay Yacht club on El Carmel Pt. but that may be limited also.

There are some rv/boat storage areas fairly close by if you want to avoid pulling it over the hill. In my marina you could rent a slip on a month to month for the summer. Then you can sleep on it, use the showers etc... smallest slips are 25 ft... run around $300/mo. with gas creeping up over 3 buck/gal it might be worth your while...and you don't have to pay for a motel. There's a sign in our Marina for a nearby dry storage area, not close enough for mast up, for 150/mo. If you're coming down every weekend and don't mind sleeping on the boat.... well you can do the math.

Another thought is the free 72 hour anchorage in mariner's cove. You don't need a permit. what you do need is a way to get to shore... I also think there might be rules about leaving the boat untended... call the lifeguard station. It's across the way at the entrance to Quivera basin.

Also there is place on the northwest corner of the area called Mission Bay Campland. It is a pretty cool place but it's geared more for beach launched boats. There's a huge launch ramp nearby on Clairemont Dr. ... The downside to this location is that it's so far from the ocean and you'd be sailing pretty much upwind all the way... good thing is fiesta island and some of the other beaches. You can drop anchor and swim or wade to the beach. very nice. Except for all the PWC's.

If you stay at any of the hotels on the bay they should allow you to keep your boat tied up to their guest dock during your stay. Like I said though, you can rent a slip for a month for what it costs to stay in one of those places for a night.

Finally, and this is not to slight the fine people who participate here, but the sailing advice is very erratic and inconsistent. I recommend investing in some type of formal instruction... whether it be videos, books like the "annapolis bood of seamanship", classes or private instruction.... There is a very large Catalina 22 Fleet in the San Diego area that might help. There is an owner's website also with lots of info. http://www.catalina22.org/

Joe · Jun 19, 2009

mission bay to catalina

Steve.Cook said:
have you been to catalina island from mission bay?
my sailing buddy wants me to tag along with him, he has a c22 also
I'm thinking it'd be a long sail

Steve.... it is definitely a long sail. 65 nautical miles.. uphill slog all the way. I've made the trip from here only once. We left right after sunset and motored up overnight, arriving at avalon around ten. It's 12 to 14 hours if you motor straight there, so go figure the zig zag sailing time. Evenings are calmer and there is often a light "land breeze" to help your passage.

That said, sailing all the way from Mission Bay to catalina in a Cat 22 might be a little ambitious for you at this stage. You'll need a reliable motor and, preferably, an auto pilot.
I recommend you take some shorter, lest demanding cruises to get a feel for your boat and crew's abilities. Here's a couple of suggestions.

1. Mission Bay to Oceanside.... It's about 30 miles north... sail or motor to about 5 miles off la Jolla before turning north to lay Oceanside in one leg. They have a cool little harbor with guest slips convenient to restaurants. Allow 8 hours for the passage, planning your arrival with plenty of daylight left. The harbor entrance can be tricky after dark.

2. Mission Bay to Glorietta Bay.. i.e. Coronado. Fantastic free 72 hr anchorage. dingy dock is across the channel, can get windy. 6 hours or so sailing around Pt Loma past shelter Island and downtown San Diego, under the bridge...hang a right.. you're there.

3. Mission Bay to LaPlaya.. i.e. Shelter Island. Beautiful anchorage is only open weekends. This anchorage is in a quiet cove between the Southwestern and San Diego Yacht clubs. Lots of rich people houses. Nice 3 hour run around Pt Loma.

4. Mission Bay-Coronado Islands (mexico)-Mission Bay... A long day sail, about 40 miles round trip. You can't go ashore, most people anchor for lunch off the east side of coronado sur. Lay plenty of scope if you anchor. Oh, by the way, make sure you have a mexican fishing license, if you have even a fish hook on board. It's a popular fishing/snorkeling area for San Diego locals.

Other trips migh inclulde Chula Vista's nice marina, and there's a day anchorage off the beach on the strand ... watch your depth meter.

Ensenada is about the same distance south as Catalina is north.

Steve, if you jonesing to go to catalina... why not just trailer the boat up to Long Beach or San Pedro. It's only 18-20 miles across to isthmus cove from there. That gives you time to sail around to explore the island and visit other anchorages.