Sailing class caused extra work

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Feb 7, 2010
76
macgregor 25 Beaver lake, Rogers Arkansas
After three sailing classes and a day on the water with John Nelson, one of our instructors with about sixty plus years on the water, I had to redesign and rebuild my rudder. John couldn't figure out why I never was able to stop my tack on a specific point. That is, until he took the tiller. He was astounded that my Mac 25 rudder was so ineffectual. He wasn't able to stop the turn when he tacked also. Attached is a series of pictures on the rebuild of the stock Mac 25 rudder. I added three inches forward of the pivot point and three inches to the length. Put it all together with half inch oak dowells and epoxy, four layers of fiberglass cloth, sanded between applications and it will be painted with anti-fouling paint tomorrow. Will post a picture of it on the boat later.
 

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May 26, 2004
204
Macgregor Venture 25 Trailer Sailor
Please explain in more detail your problem

I've been sailing my V25 for nearly seven years now and I don't understand your problem of "ineffectual" rudder. Do you always drag your motor while sailing?

After three sailing classes and a day on the water with John Nelson, one of our instructors with about sixty plus years on the water, I had to redesign and rebuild my rudder. John couldn't figure out why I never was able to stop my tack on a specific point. That is, until he took the tiller. He was astounded that my Mac 25 rudder was so ineffectual. He wasn't able to stop the turn when he tacked also. Attached is a series of pictures on the rebuild of the stock Mac 25 rudder. I added three inches forward of the pivot point and three inches to the length. Put it all together with half inch oak dowells and epoxy, four layers of fiberglass cloth, sanded between applications and it will be painted with anti-fouling paint tomorrow. Will post a picture of it on the boat later.
 
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r.oril

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Oct 29, 2008
586
MacGregor 26D and Catalina 30 26 - 30 Lancaster, CA
Can you say Ida?

I went out once or twice with a stock 26D rudder and bought a IdaSailor Rudder. Can you say power stearing...Did not have the time to modify the original and I always raise the engine. Hats off to builders.:D
 
Jun 3, 2004
1,863
Macgregor 25 So. Cal.
Maybe it's me but your rudder looks way short.

I have the Ida rudder but it was no longer than my stock one.

They both measure over 38 inches from the lower attachment point on the boat to the end of the blade.
 
Jun 5, 2004
997
Macgregor 26D Boise
Maybe itis better to think of a rudder as a wing, a symmetrical airfoil that creates lift and pushes the stern around. To do it's job, the flow of water must stay attached to the foil. When the airfoil you call your rudder is asked to create so much lift that the rudder stalls, the flow of water around the rudder becomes turbulent, and the rudder is ineffective. Then the forces on your boat cause a round up.

My point is that surface area does not alone make for the most efficient development of lift. In fact, I often see rudder mods that address the effort necessary to move the rudder (at the tiller), without addressing the creation of an aiirfoil shape. What are good airfoil shapes? What is the ratio of airfoil length to chord thickness that would best apply as a rudder? Does the water medium change the requirments of shape? These are some of the questions that I always wonder about.

Maybe a very small but efficient rudder shape would make a good rudder.
 
Jun 3, 2004
1,863
Macgregor 25 So. Cal.
Some things I noticed with the Ida rudder.

Better response
Lighter pressure needed to turn
Less turbulence left in the water behind the boat
This is the suprise--it is quiter
 
Feb 7, 2010
76
macgregor 25 Beaver lake, Rogers Arkansas
I've been sailing my V25 for nearly seven years now and I don't understand your problem of "ineffectual" rudder. Do you always drag your motor while sailing?
Nope, I always lift the outboard when the sails go up.
 
Feb 7, 2010
76
macgregor 25 Beaver lake, Rogers Arkansas
How did you attach the wood to the fiber glass??
What I did was cut a three inch wide and rudder long plug from the leading edge of the rudder and a three inch wide strip one inch across the width of the rudder. I then made inserts from plastic decking from Lowes and used epoxy and half inch oak dowells to re attach the cut off pieces which then held it all together. Then, it got four wraps of fiberglass cloth, sanding between applications. Painted it with anti fouling paint, carried it out to the dock, got it wet and WOW.... the damn thing really worked about 500% better than stock.

I didn't want to reinvent the wheel but make a rudder that worked into one that REALLY worked. I call my effort a success. If you ever decide that you want to make this mod, let me know. I'll give you my phone number and will give you all the little things that worked and the things I might have done differently.
 
Jun 5, 2004
997
Macgregor 26D Boise
Let's think about drag, too. If steering authority was a single consideration in rudder design, then we would see rudders with huge chord lengths. On larger boats, with the expense of creating a foil shape that has the right thickness to length ratio, the prevailing design type IS a thin-ish barn door dragging behind the boat. Different amounts of material ahead of- and behind the center of rotation of the rudder head affect the effort needed to control the rudder, but drag is not taken into account or it is ignored in favor of counteracting weather helm and not allowing the pressures on the rig to overcome the steering authority. These rudders cause huge wakes and create a lot of drag.

So maybe adding surface area alone is not the best rudder design, and I am now speaking of the trailer sailers we all drag behind our vehicles. Because of the relatively diminuative size of our boats and rigs, can a rudder be designed that is efficient enough to have steering authority, and minimize drag? We often find that the stock rudder found on production boats under 27 feet LOA are at best a compromise, and sometimes even laughable. The owners of such craft sail for years with rudders whose drag or lack of steering authority would be immediately corrected if their automobiles display such poor handling characteristics. Belive me when I say that these crude designs are featured on many sailboat brands, this being the rule instead of the occasional exception. I see a lot of rudders, by the way.

So if you could start over and build a rudder from scratch, use a proven airfoil shape, situate the design in relation the vertical pivot centerline to reduce tiller effort, what would it look like?
 

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