Sailing Cat 22 with swing keel raised?

[Telemark Sailor]

Resurrecting an old thread here . . .

The reason to raise a centerboard/daggerboard when running isn't just drag- it is because unlike other tacks you end up getting water pressure on both sides of the centerboard and it makes the boat list back and forth (as well as slowing it down). You really notice this in a Sunfish (dinghy sailing is good for figuring this stuff out), and you really want to remove the daggerboard on a run. I like to do it on a broad reach too for increased speed, especially when surfing waves which you can't really do with the daggerboard down.

Now whether these advantages are worth it on a larger swing keel boat given the much larger risks of capsizing in such a boat- that's what brought me to this thread. Sounds like maybe not. I also wondered about water getting inside the slot and possibly up into the cabin?

 

[Chris Patterson]

I had wondered that as well. I tried running on a Sunnyfish once with the board down. It was crazy. Got thrown off of the boat. Don't some sailors call this a death roll?

But I've never had nerve enough to raise the keel on a 22. I like that weight down there. And no, water won't come in.

 

[agprice22]

I have run with the keel up, and it does help with the boat wanting to wallow back and forth. While it should increase speed, the fact that it moves the COG back, dragging the stern more deeply, probably increases overall drag! Lowering the keel raises the stern about 2-3".

Thanks,

Andrew

 

[HillbillyWanderer]

Have so much to learn, have been to a few club races so far and actually raced my boat in one of them! I was consistent at least "consistently last"! I had fun though. Seems all the racers raise their keel on the down wind section while sending crew forward to put the weight towards the front of the boat thus bringing the ass out of the water a bit. So agprice or anybody else have an opinion on if it helps to raise the keel to offset the danger of forgetting to lower it and possible capsize and does it actually help any at all considering you just sit the ass of the boat deeper in the water doing so?

 

[Chris Patterson]

There's really very little "problem" with this at all. Unless, that sideways gust that usually happens, and always unexpectedly, and then.......as Frasier would say, "Off you go".

Or better yet, over..

 

[Ken]

If the racers on your lake are raising the keels while racing then they are breaking the rules and would be protested very quickly in a sanctioned regatta..

C. KEEL
1. Keels may be either retractable or fixed. In either case, they shall be as supplied by the manufacturer. They shall remain unmodified in composition, size and shape. Refinishing the surface of the keel shall not be considered a modification.

2. Retractable keels shall have the cable attached and shall remain in the down position unless the safety of the crew or boat requires otherwise.

3. Fixed and swing keels may race together as one class.


I spent a lot of time sitting on the bow on the downwind run while racing, but never did we consider raising the keel while competing.

When I had the swing keels, there were times I raised the keel while going downwind cruising, but only with winds under five knots...

 

[HillbillyWanderer]

Lol hope I didn't get anybody in trouble then. It's a small race club hardly anybody gets excited but that is good information to have. Thanks for the info. Thinking its not really worth it considering it is against the rules, things get chaotic at times and one could forget to drop the keel, raising the keel lowers you ass in the water and you could get an unexpected wind gust that sends you over board. The risk vs reward dosent add up it seems. I see myself winning the next race after I protest the rest for raising their keels! Just kidding. Not sure if all do some prob don't. I don't care I am just happy to be out there.

 

[Ken]

When I kept my boat at he local lake I once went over hoping o get a sail before a storm... I was in such a hurry I forgot to drop the keel. I was so out of control for a while I was freaking out, then it hit me lol. I was lucky I didn't get knocked down.... Having suffered that twice its a experience I'd just as soon not repeat...

 

[Chris Patterson]

Haha. That IS kinda freaky, huh? I have done that as well.

"What the HELL is going on with this stupid boat"? .......... dohh..

 

[Paul In Boston]

The full swing keel design was only created to be raised for loading onto a trailer, never to sail, motor, moor or anchor!


Question, Keel down for mooring? Wouldn't the wear on the keel pivot pin or cast iron keel hole be less if in the up position while rocking on the mooring? Some C22 sailors have to do this in shallow mooring fields.

 

[Chris Patterson]

I'm under the impression that the wear would be less if left down. The keel is supposed to be fairly snug in the trunk while it's down, but there's generally a lot of slop in it when raised up. Every swing keel that I have ever seen, when it is winched up tightly, without it being supported on a trailer or whatever, I can kick them back or forth maybe an inch or so. So it would be in my contention that the static position will wear components less. If, the pin and hole is in decent shape, and the keel is shimmed properly to prevent "the clunk", which it shouldn't be doing anyway.

 

[Bilbo]

...........
Now whether these advantages are worth it on a larger swing keel boat given the much larger risks of capsizing in such a boat- that's what brought me to this thread. Sounds like maybe not. I also wondered about water getting inside the slot and possibly up into the cabin?

Well, there is no direct access from the slot up into the cabin. This is not like a dagger board where the keel is lowered vertically into a slot. The keel pivots up towards the stern.
There is a hose attached to a thru hull for the keel cable at the back of the keel but the turning ball in that hose at about the water line seriously prevents any splashing. The only real way to get water inside is through a leak or from over-loading the boat with ballast. Heeling doesn't effect this unless the amount of heel is exceedingly high.

The design of the foil of the C22 swing keel is only at it's best efficiency when the keel is down. So far I have not experimented with raising the keel downwind under sail but for upwind sailing, I would guess that as a ballpark idea, the amount of heel would double when it's up. Heading downwind, I think that it would be tender and any error would be serious. I don't think that the yaw axis of the boat would change much. That is mostly affected by the distance between the front of the keel and the rudder.

Now, I did raise the keel on my boat while motoring at full throttle just the other day and the speed via a small GPS that was sitting still on the cooler / step was no different. Sails were down and stowed away.
I would suggest to leave the keel down and doing an experiment to a mark by running Dead Downwind (or DDW) on one test and have another similar boat heading slightly off that and doing a controlled jibe. We may find that the DDW boat is slower and less safe because it can accidentally jibe.

 

[agprice22]

I don't think you could get upwind well with the keel up. You would probably cover more ground in a sideways drift than you did upwind or on a reach. Likely, the heel degree would be high too. No keel would seem to equal no forward drive. While the sail is a vertical foil (wing), creating forward drive via its "lift", the keel makes that drive possible by resisting sideways force. Maybe someone else could describe it better, but sailing a beat or a reach with no keel would be as useless as it was exciting: VERY!

And no, no water will enter through the slot, per se, but it could come through the lock-down screw. And, as mentioned, through the volcano.

Now I drew on paper a new design that creates a small trunk that runs to the top of the cabin into which a redesigned keel would rise like a daggerboard. The redesigned keel would have a v-wing ballast design that conforms to the hull, and the v-wing would only snug up against the bottom when the keel is raised. The keel would be raised using a winch either under the dinette seat or in the potty area. This would eliminate dragging a cable through the weeds in my lake as the cable would be attached directly to the top and never enter the water. Because the ballast is below the boat at all times, the COG remains a safe distance from the centerline of the freeboard, avoiding a turtling tendency. Because the keel doesn't swing, it would be easier to create the leverage to lock it down. However, the mechanical advantage created by lifting the rear of the swing keel would be lost, making the dagger-keel more difficult to raise.

Oh well, it was too much trouble to go through to simply eliminate dragging a cable!

Thanks,

Andrew