I just bought a 1987 Catalina 22 with a swing keel. I used to sail an Oday 26 with a swing keel and it sailed very well with the keel in either the raised or lowered position. Can anyone comment on the stability and handling of the Catalina 22 with the keel in the raised position?
Sailing Cat 22 with swing keel raised?
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Hey cadams
I often sail my Cat with the keel raised. On light wind days {sometimes moderate
}I'll crank it up about 7 -10 turns for some extra speed. It does lessen your pointing ability though. On downwind or really light wind days it is all the way up. You'll know when to let it down again if the wind pipes up. Bear in mind that I sail on the headpond for a local dam and have little in the way of waves or swells to deal with. Especially on the days I would crank her up some.
Just play with it when out in the mild stuff and get a feel for it. It is a little more tender ( that's how you know when the wind speed is up and time to let her down some)
Hope this helps
I often sail my Cat with the keel raised. On light wind days {sometimes moderate
}I'll crank it up about 7 -10 turns for some extra speed. It does lessen your pointing ability though. On downwind or really light wind days it is all the way up. You'll know when to let it down again if the wind pipes up. Bear in mind that I sail on the headpond for a local dam and have little in the way of waves or swells to deal with. Especially on the days I would crank her up some.Just play with it when out in the mild stuff and get a feel for it. It is a little more tender ( that's how you know when the wind speed is up and time to let her down some)
Hope this helps
Coastal MS sailing, it has surprised me how stable the boat is with the keel up. I have forgotten to lower it leaving anchor and hardly noticed a difference. As Mormandeus said, when conditions pipe up, not so much.
Yes, don't do it. Ever. In spite of what the last two skippers said. If you have it up going downwind, you simply never know when you might be forced to turn - for whatever reason: traffic, wind, dropping something overboard...you just don't know.
I was sailing downwind on SF Bay years ago in our C22 and a blinkin' submarine surfaced less than 100 yards away. That tiller sure moved!!! I'd already gotten over the stupid habit of cranking it up when going downwind, thank goodness.
It just isn't worth it. The stability of the boat is severely diminished with the keel up in anything from a broad reach to closehauled.
But...
Your boat, your choice.
You'll also be putting added strain on the lift cable with the keel partially raised. When it's fully down, the tension on the keel cable can be released. That also stops the "hum" of the cable vibrating as it slices water.
I don't want to be disparaging to anyone, but I can see no reason to sail with it up. The original question being, stability, and handling. The answer is no. And no. Sure, you might make a little speed running, but is it worth it. My opinion would be no again. I can think of many, many good reasons to have it down, not the least of which it is designed to be down, but not a single good reason to have it up. Like Stu said, if in a pinch, or a sudden puff, have you ever seen a Sunfish go down? It's alarmingly fast, and I contend that the 22' would as well.
I sail the Cape Fear and approaches, and doing it keel up would be suicide. The couple of times that I have forgotten it, I knew something was dreadfully wrong immediately. Besides, it'll slip, or crab.
I have a priority list for boats. First, will it hurt anyone. Second, will it sink the boat. This issue comes in both categories.
I'll be quiet. But no way man.
I sail the Cape Fear and approaches, and doing it keel up would be suicide. The couple of times that I have forgotten it, I knew something was dreadfully wrong immediately. Besides, it'll slip, or crab.
I have a priority list for boats. First, will it hurt anyone. Second, will it sink the boat. This issue comes in both categories.
I'll be quiet. But no way man.
Good points. As I said, have forgotten to lower when sailing off anchor a couple of times, in benign conditions, until I reach deeper water. Promptly lowered and do not sail while raised on purpose. Read once that a slack cable, while reducing hum, allows the cable to "flutter" leading to premature failure due to repeated side to side motion. Still, I loosen it a bit because I get tired of hearing it. At the dock, I leave the keel down. I believe this is contrary to advice. I cannot get past the potential energy of a raised keel at the slip while I'm away. Hmm... I did the keel refurbish with all new hardware last year.
Mates - I agree with Chis and Stu. The C-22 is a pocket cruiser and not a sailing dinghy. I've sailed Lasers and such downwind with the centre board up (sitting for'ard of the mast/centreboard to improve heel and speed in very light airs), and for that sized boat it is appropriate to raise the centreboard. It is not prudent to raise the keel on a larger than dinghy sailboat. In addition to the counterweight of the keel to the 'above waterline' weight, the lateral stability of the swing keel (or wing keel or fixed keel) to counter the forces of the wind vs sail is equally important. I sometimes do raise the keel a little when under motor only, but NEVER under sail. The ability to point under any mode is reduced when the keel is raised. from a safety perpsective, the need to change course rapidly or wind shift or gust will likely cause significant distress and peril should the keel be raised.
Our C22 sails very nicely downwind, even in 'rough' conditions of +25 knots and following 'seas', with the keel DOWN. My 8yo son can handle that. My wife regards me as somewhat 'competitive' to get max boat speed at any time, but I would not even attempt that in a trailer sailer with the keel raised.
When looking for an appropiate boat for an inland lake in the US, I looked at the McGregor 26 in both the swing keel (26S) and dagger (26D) versions. Beside the water ballast concerns (I like the ballast to be as far below the COG as possible), the dagger version scared me quite frankly. For a pocket crusier to be designed like the Lasers of my youth made no sense at all.
This (C22) is a displacement type sailboat design with the keel as an integral and functional inclusion. It is designed as a swing keel to faciltate low water anchorages and trailering, not to sail like a Laser or centreboard dinghy. It is extremely practical in that respect and why we chose the '22' over other designs. As owners and Skippers we must make own own decisions but err on the side of safety and ignoring that is not too responsible in my humble opinion. But... your decision (and your mission, should you choose to accept it).
cheers,
Our C22 sails very nicely downwind, even in 'rough' conditions of +25 knots and following 'seas', with the keel DOWN. My 8yo son can handle that. My wife regards me as somewhat 'competitive' to get max boat speed at any time, but I would not even attempt that in a trailer sailer with the keel raised.
When looking for an appropiate boat for an inland lake in the US, I looked at the McGregor 26 in both the swing keel (26S) and dagger (26D) versions. Beside the water ballast concerns (I like the ballast to be as far below the COG as possible), the dagger version scared me quite frankly. For a pocket crusier to be designed like the Lasers of my youth made no sense at all.
This (C22) is a displacement type sailboat design with the keel as an integral and functional inclusion. It is designed as a swing keel to faciltate low water anchorages and trailering, not to sail like a Laser or centreboard dinghy. It is extremely practical in that respect and why we chose the '22' over other designs. As owners and Skippers we must make own own decisions but err on the side of safety and ignoring that is not too responsible in my humble opinion. But... your decision (and your mission, should you choose to accept it).
cheers,
I always sail with the keel down because of the lower center of gravity (unless it's dragging on the bottom ;-) )I've tried to analyze why it might move faster with the keel up and I would like to know the thinking on that. I believe that keel down gives a lower center of gravity to decrease heel, a greater keel to rudder distance for lateral stability as well as the fairing of the keel is designed for it being down.
I have given the hydrodynamic drag co-efficiencies some consideration myself. Even with the keel hauled up, the greater part of it by far is still dragging through the water. I don't know the exact math on this, the precise equation is irrelevant, but it's got to be 90 plus percent, or more likely, more.
I personally can see no benefit whatsoever to sailing with it up.
And plenty of liabilities to sailing with it up as well..
I personally can see no benefit whatsoever to sailing with it up.
And plenty of liabilities to sailing with it up as well..
I just hate wet upholstery!
The Oday 26 and the 22 swing with two different underwater arrangements were designed to be trailerable boats. The difference is the Oday carries all it’s stability in the shallow keel design but will not sail properly without the drop board down, as the others have said, will sail sideways. This Oday configuration doesn’t have a weighted swing keel as you may think for added stability but only needed to help increase it’s sailing ability.
The full swing keel design was only created to be raised for loading onto a trailer, never to sail, motor, moor or anchor! The only added benefit to the swing keel on a Catalina or a couple other small boats is the ease to raise the keel for special reasons, a lot of other swing keels and raise able keels were designed to be more trouble than the worth.
I didn’t mind getting wet when sailing a sunfish, laser, or a dingy but with a cruiser I just hate it when all that upholstery and stuff gets wet and you spend all that time trying to dry it out!
The Oday 26 and the 22 swing with two different underwater arrangements were designed to be trailerable boats. The difference is the Oday carries all it’s stability in the shallow keel design but will not sail properly without the drop board down, as the others have said, will sail sideways. This Oday configuration doesn’t have a weighted swing keel as you may think for added stability but only needed to help increase it’s sailing ability.
The full swing keel design was only created to be raised for loading onto a trailer, never to sail, motor, moor or anchor! The only added benefit to the swing keel on a Catalina or a couple other small boats is the ease to raise the keel for special reasons, a lot of other swing keels and raise able keels were designed to be more trouble than the worth.
I didn’t mind getting wet when sailing a sunfish, laser, or a dingy but with a cruiser I just hate it when all that upholstery and stuff gets wet and you spend all that time trying to dry it out!
I wish that someone with some moxy with the racers would ask them if and why they'd raise their keel on a dead downwind run. I am not part of their club of good old boys. It is my feeling that any small gain (If it exists) in raising the keel on a DDW run would be more than made up for in increased speed IF one would take a broad reach and actually use the keel for it's intended purpose. After all, a keel isn't just a dumb weight hanging below the hull. For that matter the sails work better if they are using the apparent wing of a broad reach as opposed to nothing more than an air dam as in a wing and wing config.
<<racers...why they'd raise their keel on a dead downwind run>>
Perhaps it has more to do with center-of-gravity considerations than keel drag. When running with the wind, the force on the mast tends to push the bow down. Lifting the keel swings its weight toward the stern, which would tend to lift the bow a little.
The fluid dynamics of aircraft wings cause a long, slender wing to create less drag (for the same wing area) than a short one with a long chord (distance from front edge to rear edge). Raising our keel changes it from a long, slender "wing" to a short, long-chord one. That means increased drag. I can't say which position minimizes the drag created by the indented area of the hull into which part of the keel retracts.
Perhaps it has more to do with center-of-gravity considerations than keel drag. When running with the wind, the force on the mast tends to push the bow down. Lifting the keel swings its weight toward the stern, which would tend to lift the bow a little.
The fluid dynamics of aircraft wings cause a long, slender wing to create less drag (for the same wing area) than a short one with a long chord (distance from front edge to rear edge). Raising our keel changes it from a long, slender "wing" to a short, long-chord one. That means increased drag. I can't say which position minimizes the drag created by the indented area of the hull into which part of the keel retracts.
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Maybe that is why my Laser ran better downwind with the centreboard up and my weight for'ard. Less drag on the stern with less aft surface area contacting the water, while the deep V of the bow offered less resistance so I went a little faster.
So... maybe running a C22 downwind with the keel partially raised and weight forward may have some merit. Or just put weight (crew) forward and leave the keel down where it belongs. But nevertheless I think I'll keep my keel in the down and locked position regardless.
So... maybe running a C22 downwind with the keel partially raised and weight forward may have some merit. Or just put weight (crew) forward and leave the keel down where it belongs. But nevertheless I think I'll keep my keel in the down and locked position regardless.
Aha, Thanks muchly. So then when I'm going DDW and my (non racing setup) C22 which sits with the weight shifted astern because of my 6hp, honkin big battery and 5 gallons of gas (not to mention my fat-ahem) will sail better with the keel down to neutralize the stern weighting ;-)
Another issue with the long-chord (Up keel) is that the chord isn't proper. It's factory casting design bulbs out slightly towards the stern (bottom of keel) and the shorter leading edge when up is not generally as well faired as the longer down leading edge.
My concern is stability in the event of any mistake on the part of the sailors.
Racers
1. It's against the rules to raise the keel while racing (one can raise the keel for groundings only)
2. For the little gain maybe a 1/4 knot, forgetting to lower it would be most embarrassing when the boat goes over.....
Anyone who's suffered a full blown knock down knows it happens very very quickly... (That one I know well)
1. It's against the rules to raise the keel while racing (one can raise the keel for groundings only)
2. For the little gain maybe a 1/4 knot, forgetting to lower it would be most embarrassing when the boat goes over.....
Anyone who's suffered a full blown knock down knows it happens very very quickly... (That one I know well)
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