Sailboat Instruments

[EJWash]

At present, my 1989 Catalina 30 is equipped with a Signet SL80 (speed, depth, and temperature) and an Autohelm ST4000 autopilot. Wind data? Yup, I have a Windex! I bought the boat about a year ago, and this equipment appears to have served the boat for many years. I am looking to upgrade. The question is, to what?

I’ve been looking at the instruments on the market, but it doesn’t take long for my head to start spinning. Being a coastal cruiser (NOT a racer - ain't gonna be) I’m at odds as to what instrumentation I really need on a boat this size. I really like the idea of a multi-function instrument. Also, as luck would have it, the Fall edition of Mainsheet magazine had a great article on NMEA 2000 technology. Seems as if plug-and-play is here.

I’m thinking that the basics are speed and depth. Not sure about temperature. Autopilot, of course. Wind direction and speed (keep the trusty Windex as a back-up). Chart plotter. What am I missing?

So far, the B&G Vulcan 2 catches my eye.

So, for those coastal cruisers out there, what do you have? What features would you add, if you could? What features do your have that you really never use?

Thank you in advance!

EJ

 

[Tally Ho]

My new to me O'Day 322 has a hodgepodge of instruments, and they don't all talk to each other.
Currently I haven't:
- Raymarine autopilot
-Garmin 741 chart plotter
- DataMarine speed/depth
- TacTic wireless wind instrument
- DSC VHF radio with AIS receiver


The "problems":
TacTic wireless does not interface with anything, so no "True wind"
Auto pilot does not interface with Tac Tic wind, so AP can't be set to hold a wind angle
DSC radio does not interface with the GPS Chartplotter, so no location information to the Radio

I like the Chartplotter, and if I upgrade some of the instruments to NMEA 2k, it should be able to display wind info, including true wind. The AP is s old, and would have to be upgraded to a new unit to get NMEA 2k. Garmin gWind with a network box could replace the older Tac Tic wireless wind.

My Chartplotter also has sonar, depth, and water temp. I don't use the sonar for fishing, but do find the depth (critical) and water temp (nice to have if I want to take a swim).

I was able to connect my radio and Chartplotter via NMEA2k. I can now see AIS targets on my Chartplotter, but there is a bug in the radio apparently that won't allow the coordinates to for to the radio. Need to upgrade the bios in the radio, but has to be done via a MFD by the same manufacturer as the radio, and of course I don't have one....

Maybe the moral of the story is, use the same brand instruments as much as possible....hopefully reduce connection issues.

Greg

 

[EJWash]

Thanks Greg - very good info.

Ray Marine has it's own version of NMEA 2000. Not sure if it's compatible with non Ray Marine instruments.

 

[Tally Ho]

They do, but my AP ( I think is an ST4000) is too old...no N2K.

Greg

 

[EJWash]

I'm in the same boat as you (pun intended) AP-wise. I have an ST4000 as well. Not sure if the whole set-up gets replaced, or just the electronics. I haven't dug that deep as of yet.

EJ

 

[HMT2]

Greg,

I have an '83 Hunter 31. When we bought we had no instruments that functioned, a windex was it. We started with a Garmin 541s which has a depth capability. I used the NMEA 183 to get Lat/ Lon info to the VHF for DSC purposes. Then a few years later we added a Garmin GWind. I tried the wireless but had some issues I could not resolve so went wired. I just added a Simrad rs35 VHF with AIS reception. I built a small NMEA 2000 network everything works seemlessly. With the GWind you get a box that you can plug your lap top into and with the Garmin nexus software can access all your NEMA data. I too have an ST4000, it is not currently tied into my electronics but I have thought about purchasing a 183 to N2K converter to tie the St4000 in. At the moment I just need my iron Mike to steer a straight course.Whatever you do I would make sure it is N2K! Those are my thoughts, that and $5.00 will buy you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

 

[EJWash]

That and $5.00 will buy you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

You must be getting the Micro size coffee at Starbucks...

EJ

 

[HMT2]

I don't drink much coffee, it counteracts the dark rum and good single malt!

 

[dlochner]

At present, my 1989 Catalina 30 is equipped with a Signet SL80 (speed, depth, and temperature) and an Autohelm ST4000 autopilot. Wind data? Yup, I have a Windex! I bought the boat about a year ago, and this equipment appears to have served the boat for many years. I am looking to upgrade. The question is, to what?

I’ve been looking at the instruments on the market, but it doesn’t take long for my head to start spinning. Being a coastal cruiser (NOT a racer - ain't gonna be) I’m at odds as to what instrumentation I really need on a boat this size. I really like the idea of a multi-function instrument. Also, as luck would have it, the Fall edition of Mainsheet magazine had a great article on NMEA 2000 technology. Seems as if plug-and-play is here.

I’m thinking that the basics are speed and depth. Not sure about temperature. Autopilot, of course. Wind direction and speed (keep the trusty Windex as a back-up). Chart plotter. What am I missing?

So far, the B&G Vulcan 2 catches my eye.

So, for those coastal cruisers out there, what do you have? What features would you add, if you could? What features do your have that you really never use?

Thank you in advance!

EJ

A couple of comments on your ideas.

B&G makes good stuff, that's what I have on my boat. However, they do not make a wheel pilot only tiller pilots and under deck pilots. For coastal cruising an under deck autopilot on a Cat 30 is a bit of overkill, nice, but probably excessive. Without a lot engineering, the tiller pilot won't won't work on a wheel steered boat.

Water temperature is just a cheap add-on to the thru hull sensors. It should neither make nor break the deal. Wouldn't let that factor into any decision.

Currently I have wind instruments, their nice, but I sailed for 30 years without them not sure they add a lot to my sailing pleasure. With practice and research, your eye can estimate windspeed within a couple of knots. Nice to have the instruments to verify your observations, but not really necessary.

RayMarine has what you are looking for, an autopilot, speed/depth, and a decent chart plotter.

 

[EJWash]

A couple of comments on your ideas.

B&G makes good stuff, that's what I have on my boat. However, they do not make a wheel pilot only tiller pilots and under deck pilots.

Thanks. That's good info.

My ST4000 isn't NMEA, so I'd need to replace it if I wanted it to "talk" on a network set-up anyway. Ray marine's new autopilots are NMEA, so it probably talks to B&G products.

BTW, I downloaded the Owner's Manual for both the Raymarine aSeries, and the B&G Zeus. B&G - 88 pages. Ray marine - 464 pages. Wonder which is more user friendly?

EJ

 

[dlochner]

EJ,

If the current autopilot is working I see little need to replace it unless there is a significant engery savings while operating the AP. Let me explain.

Integrating the AP with the chart plotter has one positive benefit, all the information is in one spot. That's great, but it creates a single point of failure, MFD crashes, there goes the AP too.

Two touted advantages of integration, and one that I find of dubious value, is allowing the AP to steer the boat to a course defined by waypoints or to follow the wind in addition to following a compass course. In the open ocean, these may have some value, but in coastal waters, these "features" may present a real hazard to safe navigation. Let me explain.

The big problem is that the boat will change course regardless of the immediate conditions. Get a 20 degree wind shift, the boat changes course 20 degrees. Reach a waypoint and need a course change of 30 degrees, the boat turns 30 degrees. As current sets the boat, the AP keeps trying to compensate but may not be able to because of the point of sail.

It is the immediate conditions part that is troubling. When the AP turns the boat 30 degrees at the designated waypoint it does not know if there is another boat bearing down, that there is a log in the water, or some other hazard to navigation. Same with a wind shift, the AP doesn't know what's in front of it and when it changes course it may or may not run into something.

The fundamental issue is relinquishing control of the boat to a computer that is only vaguely aware of its surroundings and has no knowledge of any immediate dangers. This is simply not safe.

Over the 30 some odd years that I've been using an AP, I always set a compass course and let the AP steer by that course. If the wind shifts, the sails will tell me and I can trim the sails to the new conditions. When I get to a waypoint, I disengage the AP, look around and then set course to the next waypoint and reengage the AP. If I hit something because I changed course, it is because I, not a computer, made the error.

If you want to increase your sailing pleasure, consider keeping your old but functioning AP and put the money towards a new mainsail. Your boat will sail faster, flatter, and be more fun even if you have to stay old school on the AP.

Last, hold off on buying new B&G instruments. B&G has introduced the Triton2 series, but they are not currently available in the US. (B&G is a brand of Navico, which is owned by Altor and Goldman Sachs. Altor is 'Nordic' holding company that also owns C-Map.) Next spring look to see the Triton instruments available at a discount as Navico introduces the Triton2 series. A couple of years ago Navico made a decision to not allow discounting of current products. They do discount legacy products, which the Tritons will become. Last fall, it was possible to purchase a B&G 12" Zeus Touch with a 4G Broadband radar for around $2300 before a $500 rebate. Watch the prices over the winter and look for the Defender sale in March.

 

[EJWash]

Again, I appreciate your time, and for passing along your experience.

During pre-purchase survey, the was pointed-out that the AP really needs attention, as in a rebuild. While I realize that a rebuild is cheaper than a new AP system, but it's time to update.

Point taken on losing the MFD means losing control of the AP. However, a new AP includes a new controller. Since the instruments will be on a network, the AP should be able to be commanded (either/or) from both the included controller, and the MFD. If so, that will provide redundancy.

I've replaced the original 130% headsail with a new Doyle 110%. A new mainsail will come this winter.

EJ

 

[Davidasailor26]

When the AP turns the boat 30 degrees at the designated waypoint it does not know if there is another boat bearing down, that there is a log in the water, or some other hazard to navigation.

Our Simrad MFD/AP combo prompts the user before making a significant course change at a waypoint. The amount of turn before prompting is configurable. Of course that has its own drawback that'll continue going straight when it should turn if the user isn't watching for the prompt on the screen.

I do agree that in general the more automatic steering modes (e.g. Wind and navigation through waypoints) are best used in open waters.

 

[Tally Ho]

I single hand most of the time, and setting the AP to hold the wind angle, straight into the wind so I can raise the sail is nice. My current boat won't do that , so if the wind shifts some, I am racing back to the helm to point her back into the wind to get the sail up. Same for lowering it.

If the winds shift dramatically, my old boat AP would signal a wind shift.

Greg

 

[HMT2]

I single hand most of the time, and setting the AP to hold the wind angle, straight into the wind so I can raise the sail is nice. My current boat won't do that , so if the wind shifts some, I am racing back to the helm to point her back into the wind to get the sail up. Same for lowering it.

If the winds shift dramatically, my old boat AP would signal a wind shift.

Greg

Greg,

I know that dance well!

 

[LeslieTroyer]

Loosing the MFD does NOT disable the autopilot. It only limits you to not getting route info from the MFD. For RayMarine you still have the P70 or P70R which is your primary interface to the pilot not the MFD

 

[BarryL]

Hey,
My $.02.
I have a Garmin 740S plotter, Raymarine ST 60 win/depth/speed. Raymarine Ev0 100 Wheel pilot, Simrad RS35 VHF. All are networked together using a NMEA2000 network. The ST60 instruments required a converter to go from the older NMEA 0183 to the newer Seatalk NG (which is the same as NMEA 2000). Then I needed an adapter cable to connect the Raymarine Seatalk NG stuff to the standard NMEA 2000.

All works well together. With the AP I can steer to a compass heading, a waypoint or a wind angle. As others have mentioned, AP will NOT make a large course correction by itself. There is a large wind shift, or you arrive at a waypoint, the AP will beep and require you to accept the course change. No more dangerous than having the boat steer to a compass heading. You are still required to keep watch.
The VHF receives AIS information and the plotter displays it. I can see vessel name, speed, course, and CPA and TCPA on the screen. It works very well. The plotter can also display true and apparent wind.

If I were starting from scratch I would use only one vendor. The problem with a multi vendor solution is that you lose some functionality (the garmin plotter can't control the AP but a Raymarine plotter could) and, more important, you can't really update the firmware without the same type of plotter. For example, Navico came out with Firmware for the radio. I had to remove the radio and send to Navico for the upgrade. If I had a Navico (Simrad, B&G) plotter, I would have been able to upgrade it myself. Same with the AP. Raymarine has released new AP firmware but I can't upgrade because I don't have an Raymarine plotter.

Good luck,
Barry

 

[Head Sail]

You will be happier with a new EV100 autopilot. Integrates easily with Raymarine MFD and it won't send you on a new heading without a warning you. I would stick with the same manufacturer. Often times when you integrate different manufacturers, you then have to buy additional equipment i.e., a conversion box, to integrate.
I don't see a pressing need for true wind, I sail to apparent wind. Depth is a necessity, speed through water usually comes with it and use it often.

 

[LeslieTroyer]

In addition to the firmware update problems you may also have calibration issues with mixed vendors

 

[EJWash]

If I were starting from scratch I would use only one vendor.

The more I read, the more valid your point.

Even with the common convention of NMEA2000, I'm reading that it is not, in fact, plug-and-play.

MFD is enticing, but I'm beginning to see where there's a price to it. Maybe the convienence plays more nicely on a larger boat than my coastal cruiser.

EJ