Sailboat Electronics: Raymarine, Simrad, B&G, Garmin, Other

capta · Jun 15, 2015

I've been professionally involved with each of these companies over my career.
My preference and what I ask any owner I work for to install on their vessel is Garmin. I believe their networking and system coordination are the best available for the small craft market. They have the best customer support and the best technical support.
I have been disappointed time and time again by all Raymarine products from small craft gear to their big ship commercial equipment. Their customer service and tech support are little more than 'yes men', and seem to have little actual expertise or desire to work around problems.
B&G was certainly the top of the line, if not outrageously expensive gear at one time, but feed back from owners of their more recent equipment and some dealings with the company regarding older equipment, have left me feeling they have lost their way.
Simrad has taken over what is unquestionably the best autopilot system on the market (Robertson), and apparently improved on that. I have no personal experience with any of their other gear.
If you were to come aboard Skipping Stone, you would find a Garmin 10" chartplotter at the helm along with the Raymarine St-60 wind, depth and speed displays (so far so good). At the chart table is an independent Garmin 152, and in the aft cabin is a Garmin 3206 networked into the system as a tattletale repeater of the helm unit and anchor, proximity and depth alarms.
Networked into the helm and aft cabin chartplotters are the XM weather system and the radar, which can overlay the chartplotter charts.
Our autopilot is a Simrad Robertson with a rotary drive unit.
I am completely satisfied with this gear and hope it will function reliably for some time to come.

sailndive345 · Jun 15, 2015

Instrumentation...

Monterey385 said:
We are getting ready to outfit a new 39 foot sailboat. We've been hearing interesting things about the different electronics vendors. Looking for Chartplotter, Radar, Depth, Speed, Wind, VHF, AIS, and Sirius Weather (or alternative). Would like a 12" screen on the MFD.

Are there strong thoughts about Raymarine, Simrad, B&G, Garmin, or any others that we should consider?

I have chosen to go with Raymarine and have been extremely happy with the equipment and Raymarine support (needed it a few times - due to an extremely close lightening strike)

I used to have KVH and Furuno equipment. The Raymarine stuff I installed are DSM300 sounder, 12" MFD, an below decks autopilot with gyro, wind instruments, repeater(s) at nav station, AIS transponder, radar, speed/depth display.... All working together very well.

Whatever you decide to go with, you may want to purchase the same brand for all components - eliminates interfacing challenges (no matter how appealing the 'best of breed' approach may seem)

Best of luck!

Hakki

chuckwayne · Jun 15, 2015

Re: Sailboat Electronics: Raymarine, Simrad, B&G, Garmin, Ot

Thanks, Gunni,
Our 356 was ordered with a full Raymarine suite (RL70). After the dealer gave up getting it to work, Raymarine sent a team of technicians who spent 3 days swapping parts - they were actually looking at date of manufacture of the individual boards. Less than a year later the whole system was obsolete with no upgrade path. In contrast, my 4 year old Simrad NX-45 (on the pedastel) plays well with a new lowrance unit at the nav station, my BR-24 can be replaced by one of the newer ones by unplugging the old and plugging in the new.... Both plotters work seamlessly with my Wm AIS-1000, and adding the Simrad radio, network hub, and wifi unit was seamless (yes, the lowrance version doesn't have the really cool wireless remote but either is plug and play and I can't cable a remote back to the helm).
Most telling, Simrad tech support spent over an hour with me before I bought anything on how to interface my St-60 raymarine gauges and autopilot, and when they couldn't answer a question they said they'd research and call me back - and they did!
I asked the same basic interface questions of Raymarine at the boston boat show and they basically said it would be easier to just buy all new instruments (ST-70) because the stuff to handle the different versions of seatalk was expensive.
I've installed systems on several other boats and they've all worked flawlessly.

Grouperhound · Jun 15, 2015

Not Simrad

I have a fairly extensive installation of Simrad. One 12" and two 7" NSS's, 4G Radar, Autopilot, AIS, and Sonichub. I love the user interface and all the capabilities, but alas they don't always work.

Radar has never worked consistently, even after updates that were supposed to correct it. The Autopilot is flaky. If I use it through the Chart Plotters then often I will lose function of the Keypad. Not good considering it is the easiest way to shut it off in a pinch. Try killing the Autopilot from the Chartplotter under duress. Also when using the wind feature it will sometimes just switch on it's own to heading and steer to a new course. WTF. The 12" NSS seemes to get confused on occasion, locks up, then reboots. GPS fix can also take seemingly for ever sometimes on boot up.

My dock neighbor has the same boat, same factory install, and the same problems.

If I were you I would stongly consider Garmin. I think the Simrad/B&G stuff has great features but the implementation is incomplete at best. Definitely not ready for prime time.

In my opinion Garmin's engineering capabilities are far greater. They now dominate General Aviation OEM installs. The folks in NZ seem incapable of fixing their software/firmware issues.

Jentine · Jun 16, 2015

Re: Sailboat Electronics: Raymarine, Simrad, B&G, Garmin, Ot

What it comes down to in the final analysis is which brand will keep you off line for the longest time should you have a problem. I have had Raymarine and Garmin devices on my boats and I have had excellent response from Raymarine whenever there has been a problem. Several years ago, I sent a unit to Garmin for repair and had to buy another chart plotter as they weren't able to return it for more than six weeks. I have had a problem with a Raymarine linear drive when I ran aground and had the unit back in the boat three days later (the boat was in the Turks & Caicos).
The truth is that they all work the same and all are only as good as the software within but the real difference is SERVICE!
Jim

Bkrisko1 · Jun 16, 2015

Re: Sailboat Electronics: Raymarine, Simrad, B&G, Garmin, Ot

Forget the forward looking sonar! It won't show you the 40 ft container floating flush with the surface (or a log), on a dark night. My choice would be the Simrad!

jimmcgee · Jun 16, 2015

One thing not to ignore is who you're buying your gear from.

I've made multiple purchases from The GPS Store (http://www.thegpsstore.com/) over the past few years. I've always found their prices to be good and more importantly their staff is VERY knowledgeable about what works with what and what doesn't.

They're at the Annapolis and Atlantic City boat shows every year. I have no affiliation with these folks other than being a happy customer.

Grouperhound · Jun 16, 2015

Autopilot

Monterey385 said:
1. Looking at Garmin later this week
2. Which Autopilot did you install?
3. Do you happen to know whether the factory used Cat6 cable with adapters? A B&G installer indicated that the traditional wiring is not "bend friendly" and they have had much better results using Cat6 with the Ethernet/NMEA2000 adapters to connect devices as Cat6 does bends better (just trying to track down whether this is a valid solution or not, not second guessing your experience ... which I have lived thru several times with another manufacturer ... thus the post in the first place).

I'm not sure of the actual Drive Unit. Will check, but everything is as installed at the factory by Beneteau. AC42/RF25/RC42. By itself I feel the AP is great. I feel the problem is with the network and how it attempts to juggle all of the Devices and Hierarchy. Individually each of the devices are great, but when put together it turns into mayhem.

Ironically I was at the boat yesterday prepping to install a Network Expander so your question is very interesting to me, and has caused me to think a little deeper about what I saw. I noted a few things I was not happy with, specifically the excess of cable that it's coiled up in some areas. Most of my devices are connected with Simnet and the proprietary cables. As for the Network/Ethernet the only device I am aware of is the Radar. Again using the Simrad proprietary connectors and cables. If I had a complaint it would be that the cables are usually of predetermined length. This means that multiple fixed lengths are joined with short adapter cables. Any excess is coiled up mid ship adjacent the adapter/joiner. Probably not a good thing. In that respect I think CAT5/6 would be a better solution, unfortunately you will need adapters. The use of manufactured proprietary fixed length cables is never ideal, especially for high speed communications. I may now give this some further consideration as I install the Expander.

ramblinrod · Jun 18, 2015

Paul Mermelstein said:
I don't believe statements that one brand is superior or better than the others. They are all pretty much the same in reliability, functions, and features since they are all in the same competitive market. When one comes out with a feature, they all play catch up to remain competitive.

They do differ, however, in HOW they implement the features and functions, and that is largely a personal preference issue. Intuitiveness and usability are in the eye of the beholder. Do you like their particular menu system? Do you like how they implement touch screen commands? Do you like the controls? So, like others have said, go to a boat show, West Marine, and other places where you can get some hands on experience and see what you personally prefer. There is no one universal answer; only one answer for you personally.

Sorry buddy, but I really disagree with the statement they are all the same.

Raymarine EVO autohelm is way better than any other brand.

Standard Horizon chartplotters are low cost, but the feature set and programmability are severely lacking compared to others.

chuckwayne · Jun 19, 2015

Re: Autopilot

The newer navico equipment uses standard micronet connectors (sigh, the simnet connectors were proprietary but great - very small and easy to fish thru things). Navico has adapter to convert simnet to the newer micronet cables, and you can get different lengths. Escape has simnet for the stern-mounted antenna mast and GPS, pedastel(Simrad NX-45), connecting to a micronet backbone that goes forward to the nav station(Lowrance hdx-5)and simrad vhf. all plays well together

CarlN · Jun 19, 2015

To repeat my previous post - don't do this by "internet poll", go use the MFD's at a store or boat show (and have your spouse do it too). Garmin was the only unit my wife found intuitive (I agreed, by the way). Since I value her being comfortable navigating the boat, the decision was made.

I think you'll be surprised how little you use the radar. It's the last thing I'd base an electronics decision on. I cruise in Maine a lot. My Garmin radar can see lobster pots just fine. Also swimming birds that look just like lobster pots. It's exhausting to stare at the radar screen underway trying to avoid close in targets. After 15 minutes of it you understand why the Navy has one guy look at the radar and another guy steer.

You'll primarily use AIS for collision avoidance (be sure to get a transponder not a receiver so they can see you). That leaves the radar as only looking for boats not transmitting AIS - fewer and fewer each year. And before someone says it, I know Navy ships don't transmit AIS but they have other ways of getting my attention.

I use a a Simrad autopilot with the Garmin - the old AP24 control. Rock solid reliability. No color display, but who cares? I really like a control like the AP24 that has 1 degree and 10 degree left and right buttons. To dodge something like a lobster pot, I hit the right 10 degrees button once. Wait a few minutes then hit the left 10 degree button to return to course. Much easier than knobs or fooling with a menu.

Forget the forward scan sonar. I have never met anyone who thought it was worth the trouble.

malyea · Jul 1, 2015

carlf said:
I think you'll be surprised how little you use the radar. It's the last thing I'd base an electronics decision on. I cruise in Maine a lot. My Garmin radar can see lobster pots just fine. Also swimming birds that look just like lobster pots. It's exhausting to stare at the radar screen underway trying to avoid close in targets.

How about setting a "warning ring" on the radar a set distance out from the vessel such that you don't watch the radar scope but have an audible alarm sound alerting you to a new radar contact?

I haven't researched this yet but I believe someone wrote about that technique using the Simrad 4G unit.

Thoughts?

woodster · Jul 1, 2015

malyea said:
How about setting a "warning ring" on the radar a set distance out from the vessel such that you don't watch the radar scope but have an audible alarm sound alerting you to a new radar contact?

I haven't researched this yet but I believe someone wrote about that technique using the Simrad 4G unit.

Thoughts?

i think is a super idea if it can be done and it probably can ...hell they have white lights now days than can turn all sorts of colors

CarlN · Jul 3, 2015

For wiring: If you do it yourself, don't take shortcuts. If you hire someone, don't let him take shortcuts - most do

Even if you hire someone, get a high quality crimper and know how to make a bulletproof crimp. MaineSail has lots of advice

Use big enough wire - especially for the autopilot motor. http://www.genuinedealz.com/voltage-drop-calculator Genuinedealz is a great place to buy wiring supplies.

If in doubt, add some extra properly sized fuses.

Use terminal blocks/strips with crimp ring fittings instead of splicing wires together

Learn about ground loops to control electrical noise. And keep antenna coax a few inches away from 12v wires .

Label everything

Use wire ties and anchors.

Buy extra NMEA 2000 cables and connectors so you can swap one out to see if it's causing the problem. Have spares on board if one fails on your first trip. Most mysterious electronics problems turn out to be a bad connection or connector.

Read about NMEA 2000 wiring. Plan your backbone and drops carefully. Make sure the power tap is in the right place. Understand terminators. http://www.maretron.com/products/pdf/Network Installation Guide.pdf

Know how to update the software. If possible, update to the most recent software before installing.