Sail with cushions

Oct 29, 2017
91
ODay 302 Kenosha WI
New head sails came with my boat. I just rolled them out to compare with the ones I have on because I am looking to put a new roller furler on. The sail had cushions about 10 inches off the luff vertically. The sail maker said it was to give support for light winds. Has anyone seen sails like this and will I have any issues with the roller furler. Looking at a harken #1 or Schaefer 1100.
 

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jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
7,090
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
That's a "luff pad" so that when reefed, by rolling up some of the sail, it maintains a proper shape.
 
Jun 8, 2004
3,012
Catalina 320 Dana Point
Jibs sometimes have luff pads or ropes under the theory that they will maintain shape when the sail is partially furled.
 
Nov 9, 2012
2,500
Oday 192 Lake Nockamixon
What do those pads do to the air flow when not reefer?
- Will
Well, it will create some turbulence. However, it's probably not as bad as the foil of the reefing system anyway. And it's definitely worth the tradeoff of having horrible shape when actually reefed. If you were really worried about luff turbulence, you'd probably stay with hank on sails. But just about every racing boat has roller furling headsails nowadays. Forestays/luff tension is probably of more concern, from the standpoint of racing.
 
Oct 19, 2017
8,124
O'Day Mariner 19 3444 Littleton, NH
it's definitely worth the tradeoff of having horrible shape when actually reefed.
Ok. I can understand that.
While I'm not a racer, I am interested in the mechanics. So, another question, if you don't mind. Why worry about efficiency in conditions when you have more than enough wind force and are actually trying to dump some of it by reefing?
- Will "not-a-racer" Gilmore (Dragonfly).
 
Oct 25, 2011
576
Island Packet IP31 Lake St. Louis, Montreal
The liff pads work quite well. On our previous boat, we had two genoas. One with the luff pad and one without. The one with the luff pad had a much nicer shape when partially furled than the one without pads.
Cheers
Matt
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Ok. I can understand that.
While I'm not a racer, I am interested in the mechanics. So, another question, if you don't mind. Why worry about efficiency in conditions when you have more than enough wind force and are actually trying to dump some of it by reefing?
- Will "not-a-racer" Gilmore (Dragonfly).
The foam pads are designed to flatten the sail when partially rolled, by removing draft. The flatter sail generates less lift/drag and is better in strong winds.
 
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Oct 19, 2017
8,124
O'Day Mariner 19 3444 Littleton, NH
Thanks jackdaw,
By better in strong winds, you mean more forward force with less lateral force? That is to say, why not just adjust a roller furling staysail to grab more or less wind if the winds are over-powering for a full out set? The efficiency is moot if there is more than enough force to grab. Is it then a matter of improving the forward motion translation over the heeling force? Because if it's just about utilizing the wind currents better to get more power during a race, how is that better than letting more headsail out to out power your compitition? Of course your compitition can do the same thing until you are both at full sail again. I know why we reef, I just don't understand the efficiency issue if more sail is always available.
-Will
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Thanks jackdaw,
By better in strong winds, you mean more forward force with less lateral force? That is to say, why not just adjust a roller furling staysail to grab more or less wind if the winds are over-powering for a full out set? The efficiency is moot if there is more than enough force to grab. Is it then a matter of improving the forward motion translation over the heeling force? Because if it's just about utilizing the wind currents better to get more power during a race, how is that better than letting more headsail out to out power your compitition? Of course your compitition can do the same thing until you are both at full sail again. I know why we reef, I just don't understand the efficiency issue if more sail is always available.
-Will
Sure. First read what I wrote again. The full sail will have too much depth for reefed conditions. Rolling part of the sail in will decrease the area, but not the depth. It needs to be flatter. The foam gathers this extra cloth into the roll, flattening the sail.

Just like ANY other sail trim condition, you match sailshape with breeze. As breeze goes up, flatten. This is true for all sails, reefed or not.
 
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Oct 19, 2017
8,124
O'Day Mariner 19 3444 Littleton, NH
I think I get it. It's not about the efficiency of forward motion verses heeling motion in too high winds. It's about the efficiancy of sailing into the wind. A flatter sail can point higher and sail closer to the wind. A cruiser will want to sail into the waves for comfort and safety, if leeway allows, and a racer will want better options for most efficient heading to get ahead.
-Will
 
Jul 27, 2011
5,180
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
That's a "luff pad" so that when reefed, by rolling up some of the sail, it maintains a proper shape.
I believe these are called foam luffs, which fits with some of the discussion above. I like 'em; but my Ulman Sails, sail maker pal does not. Without one a headsail is either out or in. Roller furling, yes; but not roller reefing. So, if you're in a regatta waiting around the start/finish line for the next race you can roll in (furl) the headsail so you do not have to mess with it while waiting--and maybe having a sandwich. Near the 5 min gun for your start you can unfurl it and start maneuvering in anticipation of the "P" flag. But, you would not try to reef it during the race if the wind got up more than anticipated unless it had the foam luff feature. Of course, some folks wouldn't do that anyway (reef headsail) when racing even if it had that feature. Even though the sail is shortened and flattened some, you've got that big roll of cloth around the head stay which wrecks your pointing ability. It's better to feather up to flatten the boat than to roller-reef the headsail if you do not have to go far, IMHO.:)
 
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Nov 9, 2012
2,500
Oday 192 Lake Nockamixon
I think I get it. It's not about the efficiency of forward motion verses heeling motion in too high winds. It's about the efficiancy of sailing into the wind. A flatter sail can point higher and sail closer to the wind. A cruiser will want to sail into the waves for comfort and safety, if leeway allows, and a racer will want better options for most efficient heading to get ahead.
-Will
Not exactly. Whether you race or cruise, it's ALWAYS better to sail with good sails and proper trim.

If sails are stretched and baggy, they cannot sail as efficiently, and will cause more heeling. Sailing with proper trim and angle of attack also reduces flogging for under-trimming, and heeling for over-trimming.

Also, when close hauled, good jib shape makes steering much easier. That being said, there is a difference in racing cut sails, or cruising cut sails that will allow for easier steering on the wind. It's kinda like the sweet spot on a baseball bat or tennis racket. Cruising cut sails may not point quite as close, but it's easier to steer "in the groove" with a "larger" sweet spot, and racing cut sails require far more attention to steering as the sails cut more of a knife edge.

Proper rig tension helps a lot as well. I have been sailing with less rig tension than I want, which is more about structural problems in my 30 year old mast step. The loose forestay allows the luff to fall off, creating effectively more draft. When it's gusty, it makes steering and keeping telltales flying difficult, and it's like the luff kinda flaps around and catches the wind. Ugh. Last Fall, we had much gusty and shifty NW winds. At our lake, it required a lot of beating, but at the same time, gusts would lift, and just slam the boat. It's not all that enjoyable sailing, and it was even worse with my loose rig.

This year, my friend with a Catalina 22 Sport added an adjustable backstay to the masthead rig. It was a surprising improvement; as the breeze picked up, and we pulled on more backstay, the reduction in forestay sag noticeably depowered the genoa.

Of course, an adjustable backstay on a fractional rig will reduce luff sag, but its more immediate effect is to bend the mast forward, which allows the convex cut of the luff of the main to follow more of a curve, which reduces camber and de-powers the main. I should explain: the luff of the sail is cut with some convexity. When the luff is pulled straight (as tightening the halyard pulls the head and tack) this convexity forms draft in the sail. If the luff is not pulled straight - if it allows the convexity to push forward - that flattens the sail. For this reason, an adjustable backstay on a fractional rig is one of the most important tools to de-power the main, while secondarily reducing jib luff sag and flattening and depowering the jib.
 
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Oct 19, 2017
8,124
O'Day Mariner 19 3444 Littleton, NH
Thanks so much for that fantastic description of the dynamics behind these concepts. I'm not a racer but, I am very interested in the theories and mechanics of sailing.
- Will (Dragonfly)
 
Nov 9, 2012
2,500
Oday 192 Lake Nockamixon
Thanks so much for that fantastic description of the dynamics behind these concepts. I'm not a racer but, I am very interested in the theories and mechanics of sailing.
- Will (Dragonfly)
This is a very good book to start with as far as learning about sail trim, and buying here supports the forum: https://shop.sailboatowners.com/prod.php?51998/Sail+Trim+Users+Guide

While this one is a big plug for North Sails, it also has a lot of physics and aerodynamics that goes over my head: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0997392002
 
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