First of all, as you will be able to see from my question, I know very little about sail trim. I have a 27' Cascade, which I built myself and had it rigged with the mainsheet, boom vang, cunningham and the outhaul, but no traveler and no car and track for my headsail (furled). When most experts discuss the subject of sail trim and the mechanical techniques involved in triming the mainsail there is very little discussion about how to trim the mainsail for the boat owner who does not have a traveler installed, not that I really understand how to use one. So, my question is this: The other day I was out sailing somewhere between a close haul and a reach to the windward and my boat went into weather helm and was also heeling too much for my comfort level. Keeping in mind I don't have a traveler, what sail trim technique do I employ to get out of the mess I was in? Thanks, Marc
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when in doubt..................
let it out!!!! In other words, ease out the mainsheet and vang until the boat becomes balanced again. Since you don't have a traveller you'll need to use the mainsheet to control angle of attack and much more active use of the vang to control twist.
let it out!!!! In other words, ease out the mainsheet and vang until the boat becomes balanced again. Since you don't have a traveller you'll need to use the mainsheet to control angle of attack and much more active use of the vang to control twist.
Teach a man to fish
The good folks here are already answering your question, but you might consider buying Don's book. Do the two answers so far seem completely different to you? You were over-powered. The two answers are two different ways to reduce power. There are still other techniques to reduce power. You want to know them all so you can choose the right tool for the job depending on the conditions. I had the classic wrong idea about sail trim when I bought my boat. I figured it wasn't that important because I'm not racing and my lake is only 7 miles long. The faster I get to the other end, the sooner I have to just turn around anyway. Wrong! I soon found the discomfort that you describe when the boat was over-powered, which was often, so I learned sail trim in order to get _less_ power, not more! Of course, then none of my buddies could keep up to me. ;-) I told Don several years ago that I'd enjoy my advantage just for a year, and then point my friends to his book. Selfish me, it's been more like 5 years! I did finally buy another copy for one of them this year! ;-) The other fellow bought a bigger boat last year, bigger than mine, and we're pretty even now. He's going to have to wait another year before I buy _him_ a book! OK, the truth is that I gave a book to the gals that bought the other fellow's smaller boat. We're conspiring to pass him on the lake in his old slow boat. Ha! I can't wait! ;-) Hmmm, I guess I was wrong about thinking I wouldn't ever be racing...
The good folks here are already answering your question, but you might consider buying Don's book. Do the two answers so far seem completely different to you? You were over-powered. The two answers are two different ways to reduce power. There are still other techniques to reduce power. You want to know them all so you can choose the right tool for the job depending on the conditions. I had the classic wrong idea about sail trim when I bought my boat. I figured it wasn't that important because I'm not racing and my lake is only 7 miles long. The faster I get to the other end, the sooner I have to just turn around anyway. Wrong! I soon found the discomfort that you describe when the boat was over-powered, which was often, so I learned sail trim in order to get _less_ power, not more! Of course, then none of my buddies could keep up to me. ;-) I told Don several years ago that I'd enjoy my advantage just for a year, and then point my friends to his book. Selfish me, it's been more like 5 years! I did finally buy another copy for one of them this year! ;-) The other fellow bought a bigger boat last year, bigger than mine, and we're pretty even now. He's going to have to wait another year before I buy _him_ a book! OK, the truth is that I gave a book to the gals that bought the other fellow's smaller boat. We're conspiring to pass him on the lake in his old slow boat. Ha! I can't wait! ;-) Hmmm, I guess I was wrong about thinking I wouldn't ever be racing...
As Joe says..
..you will need to use your vang to keep the main flat (remove twist) and de-powered and the mainsheet to control angle of attack. If neither of these work to decrease heel and weather helm then your next step is to ease both and put in a reef.
..you will need to use your vang to keep the main flat (remove twist) and de-powered and the mainsheet to control angle of attack. If neither of these work to decrease heel and weather helm then your next step is to ease both and put in a reef.
As Don...
...is sooo fond of pointing out, there is no such thing as racing sail trim and cruising sail trim. There is only right and wrong sail trim. Either you know how to do it or you don't. If you're racing and you don't you loose. Simple! If you cruise and you don't you wind up in situations like turtle. I highly recommend you buy Don's book. It is an easy read and takes the mystery out of proper sail trim.
...is sooo fond of pointing out, there is no such thing as racing sail trim and cruising sail trim. There is only right and wrong sail trim. Either you know how to do it or you don't. If you're racing and you don't you loose. Simple! If you cruise and you don't you wind up in situations like turtle. I highly recommend you buy Don's book. It is an easy read and takes the mystery out of proper sail trim.
twist
Thanks and when you say twist and I read about that a lot. Not sure I understand. Twist, like along the leach at the top of the sail and if so, would the outhaul help in taking out the twist? Thanks again for your help
Thanks and when you say twist and I read about that a lot. Not sure I understand. Twist, like along the leach at the top of the sail and if so, would the outhaul help in taking out the twist? Thanks again for your help
book
Two days ago I ordered both of his books. Looking forward to reading them. They sound like they will be a big help. Thanks, Marc
Two days ago I ordered both of his books. Looking forward to reading them. They sound like they will be a big help. Thanks, Marc
I let it out.
I did let out the main some more and the more it heeled. So, I eased off on the Tiller and that seemed to help the heeling but the boat continued to weather helm and sailed through it and back the other way as if I was racing around a bouy. Sure did scare the hell out of me, particulary when I was holding onto the Tiller for dear life. I think I would have enjoyed it, if I had any idea as to what I was doing at the time. Thanks again for your help. Marc
I did let out the main some more and the more it heeled. So, I eased off on the Tiller and that seemed to help the heeling but the boat continued to weather helm and sailed through it and back the other way as if I was racing around a bouy. Sure did scare the hell out of me, particulary when I was holding onto the Tiller for dear life. I think I would have enjoyed it, if I had any idea as to what I was doing at the time. Thanks again for your help. Marc
Twist
turtle, yes easing out the mainsheet increases twist in the main(opposite of flattening) and that increases the power and heeling force in the main. This is exactly what you DON'T want. The main controller of twist on your boat being you don't have a traveler is the vang. When tightened, it flattens the main de-powering it. Flattening with the vang and then easing the mainsheet out to decrease the angle of attack makes the power in the sails more manageable. If after doing this the boat is still overpowered then you need to shorten sail.
turtle, yes easing out the mainsheet increases twist in the main(opposite of flattening) and that increases the power and heeling force in the main. This is exactly what you DON'T want. The main controller of twist on your boat being you don't have a traveler is the vang. When tightened, it flattens the main de-powering it. Flattening with the vang and then easing the mainsheet out to decrease the angle of attack makes the power in the sails more manageable. If after doing this the boat is still overpowered then you need to shorten sail.
Go ahead and spit...
...it out, Joe. What part didn't you like? ...the vang controlling twist or the mainsheet controlling angle of attack? In a perfect scenario, yes I would also be pulling in the mainsheet but dropping the traveler to control angle of attack. turtle doesn't have that luxury and his only option to control angle of attack is his mainsheet. That leaves only the vang to control twist. If he has a backstay adjuster I would also pull that on to flatten the main additionally.
...it out, Joe. What part didn't you like? ...the vang controlling twist or the mainsheet controlling angle of attack? In a perfect scenario, yes I would also be pulling in the mainsheet but dropping the traveler to control angle of attack. turtle doesn't have that luxury and his only option to control angle of attack is his mainsheet. That leaves only the vang to control twist. If he has a backstay adjuster I would also pull that on to flatten the main additionally.
Alan, I don't know if Joe is going to answer you but I will
You said "easing out the mainsheet increases twist in the main(opposite of flattening) and that increases the power and heeling force in the main" and that is incorrect. First if he let the main out and in the same wind his heel increased then it was over trimmed to start with. He should have let it out still more. And putting twist in the sail would only increase power if there were a large gradient in wind velocity from the top to the bottom of the main. Normally putting twist in the main spills air from the top of the main lowering the center of effort and reducing the heel. Turtle has a vang but didn't say if he was using it or how hard it was set. If it were set up tight, the twist would not have increased when he eased the mainsheet. Joe quoted an old rule that always works, When in doubt, let it out. You also said "Flattening with the vang and then easing the mainsheet out to decrease the angle of attack makes the power in the sails more manageable. If after doing this the boat is still overpowered then you need to shorten sail." and in that you are absolutely correct. It is only your first statement that I don't agree with Good luck. Joe S
You said "easing out the mainsheet increases twist in the main(opposite of flattening) and that increases the power and heeling force in the main" and that is incorrect. First if he let the main out and in the same wind his heel increased then it was over trimmed to start with. He should have let it out still more. And putting twist in the sail would only increase power if there were a large gradient in wind velocity from the top to the bottom of the main. Normally putting twist in the main spills air from the top of the main lowering the center of effort and reducing the heel. Turtle has a vang but didn't say if he was using it or how hard it was set. If it were set up tight, the twist would not have increased when he eased the mainsheet. Joe quoted an old rule that always works, When in doubt, let it out. You also said "Flattening with the vang and then easing the mainsheet out to decrease the angle of attack makes the power in the sails more manageable. If after doing this the boat is still overpowered then you need to shorten sail." and in that you are absolutely correct. It is only your first statement that I don't agree with Good luck. Joe S
Turtle
Turtle wrote: "I think I would have enjoyed it, if I had any idea as to what I was doing at the time." Nobody would ever enjoy what happened to you. The enjoyment, I'd say, comes from handing the boat in those strong winds with complete control and comfort (safety). What you describe is an "accidental tack". Not as dangerous or damaging as an accidental gybe, unless maybe if you run into another boat. Alan and Joseph are describing "vang sheeting". Not having a traveler, you'll want to understand this very well. Make sure your boom vang is convenient and easy to use. (The same goes for the outhaul.) Otherwise, you'll never use them and seriously reduce your options. Rick
Turtle wrote: "I think I would have enjoyed it, if I had any idea as to what I was doing at the time." Nobody would ever enjoy what happened to you. The enjoyment, I'd say, comes from handing the boat in those strong winds with complete control and comfort (safety). What you describe is an "accidental tack". Not as dangerous or damaging as an accidental gybe, unless maybe if you run into another boat. Alan and Joseph are describing "vang sheeting". Not having a traveler, you'll want to understand this very well. Make sure your boom vang is convenient and easy to use. (The same goes for the outhaul.) Otherwise, you'll never use them and seriously reduce your options. Rick
Joseph
If you read what turtle wrote in his post #9 ...."I did let out the main some more and the more it heeled." This is exactly what I am talking about. Easing the mainsheet increases twist and powers up the sail. Powering up meant more heel and weather helm for an already overpowered boat. Yes if you ease the mainsheet until the main has stalled and is luffing in the breeze you will have stopped the heeling and the boat. But before you get to that point the main will have gone through a power increase which only makes the situation worse. Therefore, flatten the main as much as possible to de-power it and decrease the angle of attack. On turtles boat the only way to accomplish this is to crank down on the vang and backstay and ease the sheet to lower the angle of attack. BTW this just goes to point out just how valuable a traveler is, especially to a smaller boat.
If you read what turtle wrote in his post #9 ...."I did let out the main some more and the more it heeled." This is exactly what I am talking about. Easing the mainsheet increases twist and powers up the sail. Powering up meant more heel and weather helm for an already overpowered boat. Yes if you ease the mainsheet until the main has stalled and is luffing in the breeze you will have stopped the heeling and the boat. But before you get to that point the main will have gone through a power increase which only makes the situation worse. Therefore, flatten the main as much as possible to de-power it and decrease the angle of attack. On turtles boat the only way to accomplish this is to crank down on the vang and backstay and ease the sheet to lower the angle of attack. BTW this just goes to point out just how valuable a traveler is, especially to a smaller boat.
Rick, Joe and all the rest of you
Thanks Joe. You guys have all been a big help. Rick,my vang,main halyard,cunningham and outhaul are all accessible from my cockpit and easy to reach from the tiller. Like I said, I built the boat myself, but the rigging was done by a rigger and for now, as I told him when he was installing the rigging, just give me the basics, and I'll update my rigging as I learn how to use the basics. Personally, I think he did a good job rigging everything back to the cockpit and outfitting it with what I have now. When the time comes, I'll have a pretty good grasp on how to use a traveler and a car/track for my headsail. Like what Rick was talking about, learn how to use what you have now. Again, thanks to everybody for your help, its makes reading about it a lot easier. Marc/Turtle
Thanks Joe. You guys have all been a big help. Rick,my vang,main halyard,cunningham and outhaul are all accessible from my cockpit and easy to reach from the tiller. Like I said, I built the boat myself, but the rigging was done by a rigger and for now, as I told him when he was installing the rigging, just give me the basics, and I'll update my rigging as I learn how to use the basics. Personally, I think he did a good job rigging everything back to the cockpit and outfitting it with what I have now. When the time comes, I'll have a pretty good grasp on how to use a traveler and a car/track for my headsail. Like what Rick was talking about, learn how to use what you have now. Again, thanks to everybody for your help, its makes reading about it a lot easier. Marc/Turtle
Alan, It's not my place to tell you how to sail your boat, but on mine
I put in twist to reduce heel, sail in waves or adjust the angle of attack from top to bottom. I de-power by easing sheets and flattening the main and I power up by increasing the draft. I did read Turtle's post and addressed it. You should note that when he eased the tiller the heeling decreased and that;s because his weather helm rounded him up and the sails spilled wind just as they would have if he eased his sheets some more like completely dumping the main. His problem was that he let it go too high and ended up on the other tack. You said that " if you ease the mainsheet until the main has stalled and is luffing in the breeze you will have stopped the heeling and the boat" and that isn't true because you are still sailing on the jib. And just for the record a stalled main is one sheeted too tight and a luffing main is one sheeted too lose. Perhaps you meant the boat stalled when the main luffed and not the sail. Some day perhaps you will have to explain to me why you think that putting in twist powers up the main. Have fun Joe S
I put in twist to reduce heel, sail in waves or adjust the angle of attack from top to bottom. I de-power by easing sheets and flattening the main and I power up by increasing the draft. I did read Turtle's post and addressed it. You should note that when he eased the tiller the heeling decreased and that;s because his weather helm rounded him up and the sails spilled wind just as they would have if he eased his sheets some more like completely dumping the main. His problem was that he let it go too high and ended up on the other tack. You said that " if you ease the mainsheet until the main has stalled and is luffing in the breeze you will have stopped the heeling and the boat" and that isn't true because you are still sailing on the jib. And just for the record a stalled main is one sheeted too tight and a luffing main is one sheeted too lose. Perhaps you meant the boat stalled when the main luffed and not the sail. Some day perhaps you will have to explain to me why you think that putting in twist powers up the main. Have fun Joe S
I have even less adjustability on my main than Turtle...
Alan, I cant seem to grasp what you are saying regarding twist. I am by no means a sail trim expert, as a matter of fact this is the first season I have actually been able to play around with sail trim. Where I used to sail I was constantly tacking so I didn't have the time to get things right. Just like Turtle, I also do not have a traveller, nor do I have a vang, or a cunningham. My outhaul is useless - my main is too blown out. If the boat is heeling too much I have a couple of options: 1) I can let out the main which works well (not to the point of stalling it -what would be the point?) 2) I can reef, which also works well 3) I can introduce twist in the main, which works very well also and is the easiest and quickest option How do I introduce twist? Easy, I release the main halyard slightly until the top of the sail is at the same angle as the wind vane at the top of the mast. The boat stands back up and weather helm decreases substantially (which is something the Cherubini Hunter 27's are notorious for), and the boat happily cruises along at a good clip. I thought the whole point of twist was to spill some of the wind off the top of the sail... Maybe Don Guillette can offer some clarification. Don, are you out there? Manny
Alan, I cant seem to grasp what you are saying regarding twist. I am by no means a sail trim expert, as a matter of fact this is the first season I have actually been able to play around with sail trim. Where I used to sail I was constantly tacking so I didn't have the time to get things right. Just like Turtle, I also do not have a traveller, nor do I have a vang, or a cunningham. My outhaul is useless - my main is too blown out. If the boat is heeling too much I have a couple of options: 1) I can let out the main which works well (not to the point of stalling it -what would be the point?) 2) I can reef, which also works well 3) I can introduce twist in the main, which works very well also and is the easiest and quickest option How do I introduce twist? Easy, I release the main halyard slightly until the top of the sail is at the same angle as the wind vane at the top of the mast. The boat stands back up and weather helm decreases substantially (which is something the Cherubini Hunter 27's are notorious for), and the boat happily cruises along at a good clip. I thought the whole point of twist was to spill some of the wind off the top of the sail... Maybe Don Guillette can offer some clarification. Don, are you out there? Manny
I can see Alan's point...
...in the case where the main is sheeted in too far. The angle of attack would be too high, and the main would be creating drag instead of lift. The drag forces would still cause the boat to heel. Easing the mainsheet would let the boom out decreasing the angle of attack to where it would generate proper lift. Depending on the vang setting, you would get either just a little or a lot of twist at the same time, but for a moment while the boom passes through this point I could see the lift forces causing more heel than the drag forces. On the other hand, if starting with a properly trimmed main, and not in the presence of a puff, my gut tells me easing the main and adding twist would not power up the main. Turtle didn't say he got hit by a puff, but let's assume he did. By definition, the apparent wind angle of attack will swing aft (if sailing upwind and making way). This increases the angle of attack and puts you into the situation that I started with, which is a main sheeted in too tight. Let the boom out or head up to get the proper angle of attack back, and you could have more heel then before the puff because the wind is stronger then before. I'm not sure if I've experienced this, maybe because I let my mainsheet out quite quickly and far enough to the point where I'm definitely in a low angle of attack area. I'll have to play with these ideas this summer. (Sheesh, mid-June and my boat isn't in the water yet.)
...in the case where the main is sheeted in too far. The angle of attack would be too high, and the main would be creating drag instead of lift. The drag forces would still cause the boat to heel. Easing the mainsheet would let the boom out decreasing the angle of attack to where it would generate proper lift. Depending on the vang setting, you would get either just a little or a lot of twist at the same time, but for a moment while the boom passes through this point I could see the lift forces causing more heel than the drag forces. On the other hand, if starting with a properly trimmed main, and not in the presence of a puff, my gut tells me easing the main and adding twist would not power up the main. Turtle didn't say he got hit by a puff, but let's assume he did. By definition, the apparent wind angle of attack will swing aft (if sailing upwind and making way). This increases the angle of attack and puts you into the situation that I started with, which is a main sheeted in too tight. Let the boom out or head up to get the proper angle of attack back, and you could have more heel then before the puff because the wind is stronger then before. I'm not sure if I've experienced this, maybe because I let my mainsheet out quite quickly and far enough to the point where I'm definitely in a low angle of attack area. I'll have to play with these ideas this summer. (Sheesh, mid-June and my boat isn't in the water yet.)
Sail Trim Controls
I here but I don’t like to jump in on these discussions as I like to see which way it goes – sometimes I learn something I didn’t know!! Here’s the bottom line. In order to be proficient from a sail trim standpoint, the SECOND (I’m working backwards here) thing you have to know is the function of each sail trim control for your main and jib. The FIRST thing you have to completely understand is the principles of draft depth, draft position, twist and angle of attack. If you do not understand BOTH of those items sail trim will NEVER and I mean NEVER make any sense to you. When you do understand these two principles - sail trim is a snap because now you know which way to push or pull the controls to get the effect you are after. Adjustment is the third element because that is the name of the game. At least 65% of the sailors worldwide do not have a handle of the above 3 elements. If you don’t believe me just ask your dock neighbor or sailing buddy to explain the difference between draft position and angle of attack and see the answer you get. Shortly, you will have part of the answer. Let’s say you don’t have all the sail trim controls I’m about to list. What do you do? In the words of Clint Eastwood in Heartbreak Ridge – YOU IMPROVISE. MAINSAIL CONTROLS: Draft Position – boom vang, Cunningham, mast bend, mainsheet and outhaul Draft Depth – mast bend and outhaul Twist – boom vang and mainsheet Angle Of Attack – mainsheet and traveler JIB CONTROLS: Draft Position – fairlead and halyard Draft Depth – fairlead, halyard, mast bend, sheet Twist – fairlead Angle Of Attack – fairlead (inside or outside track) The problem here on the sail trim forum is space does not permit a detailed presentation. So what does one do? Well, you could research draft depth, draft position, twist and angle of attack. Next you could research all the sail trim controls I listed to find out how they work and determine the correct setting for each point of sail and wind condition. Next you could research how to read telltales so you could determine the proper corrective action to take to get 100% efficiency out of your mainsail and jib. Next you could determine the proper procedure or steps you have to take to adjust your sails so your not working against yourself. You could do it youself, if you have a lot of time on your hands but why bother I’ve already done it for you. After digesting the material I present in my book and chart, if you don’t think you know more than 75% of the sailors worldwide I’ll give you your money back. I also provide a quick reference with list all the sail trim controls for the main and jib and tell you which way to push or pull them to get the result you are looking for.
I here but I don’t like to jump in on these discussions as I like to see which way it goes – sometimes I learn something I didn’t know!! Here’s the bottom line. In order to be proficient from a sail trim standpoint, the SECOND (I’m working backwards here) thing you have to know is the function of each sail trim control for your main and jib. The FIRST thing you have to completely understand is the principles of draft depth, draft position, twist and angle of attack. If you do not understand BOTH of those items sail trim will NEVER and I mean NEVER make any sense to you. When you do understand these two principles - sail trim is a snap because now you know which way to push or pull the controls to get the effect you are after. Adjustment is the third element because that is the name of the game. At least 65% of the sailors worldwide do not have a handle of the above 3 elements. If you don’t believe me just ask your dock neighbor or sailing buddy to explain the difference between draft position and angle of attack and see the answer you get. Shortly, you will have part of the answer. Let’s say you don’t have all the sail trim controls I’m about to list. What do you do? In the words of Clint Eastwood in Heartbreak Ridge – YOU IMPROVISE. MAINSAIL CONTROLS: Draft Position – boom vang, Cunningham, mast bend, mainsheet and outhaul Draft Depth – mast bend and outhaul Twist – boom vang and mainsheet Angle Of Attack – mainsheet and traveler JIB CONTROLS: Draft Position – fairlead and halyard Draft Depth – fairlead, halyard, mast bend, sheet Twist – fairlead Angle Of Attack – fairlead (inside or outside track) The problem here on the sail trim forum is space does not permit a detailed presentation. So what does one do? Well, you could research draft depth, draft position, twist and angle of attack. Next you could research all the sail trim controls I listed to find out how they work and determine the correct setting for each point of sail and wind condition. Next you could research how to read telltales so you could determine the proper corrective action to take to get 100% efficiency out of your mainsail and jib. Next you could determine the proper procedure or steps you have to take to adjust your sails so your not working against yourself. You could do it youself, if you have a lot of time on your hands but why bother I’ve already done it for you. After digesting the material I present in my book and chart, if you don’t think you know more than 75% of the sailors worldwide I’ll give you your money back. I also provide a quick reference with list all the sail trim controls for the main and jib and tell you which way to push or pull them to get the result you are looking for.
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