Sail Trim
- Thread starter Cap`t John
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phrf!
It is my understanding that local clubs make any minor phrf adjustments (furlers, prop types, etc.)
It is my understanding that local clubs make any minor phrf adjustments (furlers, prop types, etc.)
PHRF Allowance Depends on Location
On Lake Michigan, the answer is NO. The only credit you get for intentionally making your boat slow is 3 seconds / mile for a 2 blade fixed prop, and another 3 seconds for more than two fixed blades. Having smaller than maximum sized sails, Dacron sails, roller furling, in-mast furling, wing keel, foul bottom, whatever, is your choice, and you get NO credit for having a slow configuration. Other PHRF regions do allow credit for some of these go slow additions. You would need to ask if your region does. Steve Alchemist Holland, MI
On Lake Michigan, the answer is NO. The only credit you get for intentionally making your boat slow is 3 seconds / mile for a 2 blade fixed prop, and another 3 seconds for more than two fixed blades. Having smaller than maximum sized sails, Dacron sails, roller furling, in-mast furling, wing keel, foul bottom, whatever, is your choice, and you get NO credit for having a slow configuration. Other PHRF regions do allow credit for some of these go slow additions. You would need to ask if your region does. Steve Alchemist Holland, MI
Sail controls
I love a great debate as much as anyone but I have a couple of questions. Please excuse me if they are stupid. The first one I have and I believe has been asked but not answered by an earlier post, have the posters that are so strongly opposed to in mast furling personally sailed a boat with this type of arrangement? Secondly, it has been repeatedly been written that furling rigs don't have the sail controls to properly trim their sails. I would like to know exactly what controls are being referred to. Most boats with furling rigs that I know of have an out hauls, boom vangs, travellers, mainsheets, topping lift, furling line, as well as main halyard, and head sail controls. I know that leaves the cunningham and downhaul but are these the critical elements that make the difference? If so, wouldn't the furling system accomplish most of the function of the downhaul and couldn't the outhaul and furling lines be used to induce some of the draft needed? I realize that perfection is unattainable but I would guess that 98% of the people sailing have not reach perfection in sail trim no matter what their configuration may be. As far as furling failures are concerned I would also guess they are minimal and are greatly exaggerated by those opposed to the technology. As I recall reading so were furling head sails years ago. As with most things improvements are always happening and things like vertical battens, foam luffs etc. are advancing the efficiency of furling systems. So I would say performance gaps are closing rapidly. Also, isn't a boat's point ablility influenced greatly by hull design and keel configuration? I am by no means an expert, I am merely trying to increase my knowledge and understanding of a sport that I dearly love. Thanks for any input you might have.
I love a great debate as much as anyone but I have a couple of questions. Please excuse me if they are stupid. The first one I have and I believe has been asked but not answered by an earlier post, have the posters that are so strongly opposed to in mast furling personally sailed a boat with this type of arrangement? Secondly, it has been repeatedly been written that furling rigs don't have the sail controls to properly trim their sails. I would like to know exactly what controls are being referred to. Most boats with furling rigs that I know of have an out hauls, boom vangs, travellers, mainsheets, topping lift, furling line, as well as main halyard, and head sail controls. I know that leaves the cunningham and downhaul but are these the critical elements that make the difference? If so, wouldn't the furling system accomplish most of the function of the downhaul and couldn't the outhaul and furling lines be used to induce some of the draft needed? I realize that perfection is unattainable but I would guess that 98% of the people sailing have not reach perfection in sail trim no matter what their configuration may be. As far as furling failures are concerned I would also guess they are minimal and are greatly exaggerated by those opposed to the technology. As I recall reading so were furling head sails years ago. As with most things improvements are always happening and things like vertical battens, foam luffs etc. are advancing the efficiency of furling systems. So I would say performance gaps are closing rapidly. Also, isn't a boat's point ablility influenced greatly by hull design and keel configuration? I am by no means an expert, I am merely trying to increase my knowledge and understanding of a sport that I dearly love. Thanks for any input you might have.
Rich what exactly are you trying to say?
Rich, I am confused about what you are trying to say with your analogy about brassieres and voluptuous women wearing them. I happen to have some expertise in this area and your comments lead me to believe that you do not have a very clear understanding of how the various controls on these particular "trimmimg"systems work. Please believe me when I say advanced technology in this arena is far superior to the old "tried and true". I would also like to add that I don't know of any women that would like to go back to the "old technology". ;D
Rich, I am confused about what you are trying to say with your analogy about brassieres and voluptuous women wearing them. I happen to have some expertise in this area and your comments lead me to believe that you do not have a very clear understanding of how the various controls on these particular "trimmimg"systems work. Please believe me when I say advanced technology in this arena is far superior to the old "tried and true". I would also like to add that I don't know of any women that would like to go back to the "old technology". ;D
The Real Reason Against Using Furling Mains
I can’t remember where I got this from, but it explains all you need to know about furling mains. “And on the eighth day God created roller furling, and He saw that it was good." So begins the Book of Jib, a little known book in the Bible, in which God cast His gaze down from the heavens and beheld the labours of the many sailors as they raised and lowered and, with great difficulty, flaked their headsails, always in a grassy area which was supposed to be free of the droppings left by the dogs of Hell but never was found to be so. "God then took pity on the humble workers of the foredeck and inspired His prophets Harken, Schaefer, Hood, and Profurl." To these He gave insight so that they might develop a device which would lessen the burden. For many years did the men of the sea rejoice at their newfound innovation. But soon they forgot that the miracle of roller furling was a gift from God and instead began to believe it of their own making. They added automatic motors, and applied it to the mainsail as well, which constituted a breech of ancient law, the manual hoisting and lowering of the mainsail being a sacrament. They furled sails hither and yon, inside the mast or the boom, trying to hide the shameful practice from the eyes of God. God, being then displeased with the arrogance of man, jammed the furling units, leaving the sails exposed to the gales, which tore at them and made the sailors cry and gnash their teeth. The sailors brought down their tattered rags from aloft, and with heads hung low did take them to the sail maker, whose prices soared higher than the stars in the firmament. And with a mighty shout their checking accounts were laid to waste. The sailors did then beseech redemption. "From this day forward we shall flake our mainsails and mizzens about the boom like men!" And God saw that it was good.
I can’t remember where I got this from, but it explains all you need to know about furling mains. “And on the eighth day God created roller furling, and He saw that it was good." So begins the Book of Jib, a little known book in the Bible, in which God cast His gaze down from the heavens and beheld the labours of the many sailors as they raised and lowered and, with great difficulty, flaked their headsails, always in a grassy area which was supposed to be free of the droppings left by the dogs of Hell but never was found to be so. "God then took pity on the humble workers of the foredeck and inspired His prophets Harken, Schaefer, Hood, and Profurl." To these He gave insight so that they might develop a device which would lessen the burden. For many years did the men of the sea rejoice at their newfound innovation. But soon they forgot that the miracle of roller furling was a gift from God and instead began to believe it of their own making. They added automatic motors, and applied it to the mainsail as well, which constituted a breech of ancient law, the manual hoisting and lowering of the mainsail being a sacrament. They furled sails hither and yon, inside the mast or the boom, trying to hide the shameful practice from the eyes of God. God, being then displeased with the arrogance of man, jammed the furling units, leaving the sails exposed to the gales, which tore at them and made the sailors cry and gnash their teeth. The sailors brought down their tattered rags from aloft, and with heads hung low did take them to the sail maker, whose prices soared higher than the stars in the firmament. And with a mighty shout their checking accounts were laid to waste. The sailors did then beseech redemption. "From this day forward we shall flake our mainsails and mizzens about the boom like men!" And God saw that it was good.
Kristin
The only thing a furling Mast doesn't have is battons and a full roach. The Mast itself is also wider and MAYBE heavier...but I'm not sold on that because the inside of the mast is hollow. If it is heavier, it's not by much. The battons will give the sail shape in light winds and the full roach will give it more sail, which is good in light winds. The narrower mast will allow the wind a less interrupted flow to the sail. But what does all this mean? When it's only blowing 7 knots, you will get a little better performance with a none mast furing main. If the wind is blowing 15 knts, I don't think your going to see much difference at all. Now if you want the best of both worlds, then enter the boom furler. I have a mast furler but if I were to buy one myself, I would buy the boom furler. Only two negatives that I can think of for it is it cost more and it's hard to raise the main because of the extra friction of the furler. So there are no missing controls except the cunningham and the haylard can be used for that unless the sail is partly furled.
The only thing a furling Mast doesn't have is battons and a full roach. The Mast itself is also wider and MAYBE heavier...but I'm not sold on that because the inside of the mast is hollow. If it is heavier, it's not by much. The battons will give the sail shape in light winds and the full roach will give it more sail, which is good in light winds. The narrower mast will allow the wind a less interrupted flow to the sail. But what does all this mean? When it's only blowing 7 knots, you will get a little better performance with a none mast furing main. If the wind is blowing 15 knts, I don't think your going to see much difference at all. Now if you want the best of both worlds, then enter the boom furler. I have a mast furler but if I were to buy one myself, I would buy the boom furler. Only two negatives that I can think of for it is it cost more and it's hard to raise the main because of the extra friction of the furler. So there are no missing controls except the cunningham and the haylard can be used for that unless the sail is partly furled.
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