I disagree that you have to give up a lot of efficiency with in mast furling .Loose footed sailing is the way of the future , other than not being able to go to wind quite as efficiently ,you will lose nothing -in fact traditional sails will be hardpressed to stay with you on the other points of sail.
Sail Trim
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I think the issue...
...of efficiency, or lack thereof,with in-mast furling has more to do with the fact that you lose some roach in a furling main and so compared to the same boat without in-mast furling, you are carrying less sail area. Also, unless you spring for pricey full-length vertical battens, most in-mast furling mains lose some shape by having no battens. So the efficiency issue does not have much to do with having a loose-footed main.
...of efficiency, or lack thereof,with in-mast furling has more to do with the fact that you lose some roach in a furling main and so compared to the same boat without in-mast furling, you are carrying less sail area. Also, unless you spring for pricey full-length vertical battens, most in-mast furling mains lose some shape by having no battens. So the efficiency issue does not have much to do with having a loose-footed main.
Also, you cannot bend the mast, which helps to shape the main as the wind builds. No cunningham is yet another problem. The reason furling mains are getting popular is that people who buy these things don't understand what they are getting into. Sure they have the advantage of making stowing the main easy, but does that justify loosing sail controls??..I don't think so. I'll stay with my standard main(with ALL the sail controls) and be forced to flake the main when I get back to the mooring.
And then there is the old jam in the mast problem
When you get the sail wraped wrong or a line gets jamed in the furling and you cant rap it up or let it out it really get to be fun. ever try docking with your main half furled in the mast and the wind blowing about 20. Oh its great fun! Ill take mind down thanks! No performance boats i know of use them cause they are slow! Poor sail shape and less area.
When you get the sail wraped wrong or a line gets jamed in the furling and you cant rap it up or let it out it really get to be fun. ever try docking with your main half furled in the mast and the wind blowing about 20. Oh its great fun! Ill take mind down thanks! No performance boats i know of use them cause they are slow! Poor sail shape and less area.
Ed: IS this the voice of experience talking?
If so, I'd like to hear a little more about your experience in case it ever happens to me. As one of the hundreds of owners of a furling main which has worked perfectly for three summers now, it's hard to tell who is just bashing the idea and who has really had a problem with it. Thanks
If so, I'd like to hear a little more about your experience in case it ever happens to me. As one of the hundreds of owners of a furling main which has worked perfectly for three summers now, it's hard to tell who is just bashing the idea and who has really had a problem with it. Thanks
what about in-boom ?
A friend of mine had a C&C 31 and installed an in-boom furling system. He sailed with it for years and loved it. Besides being able to keep his fully battened main, if it ever jammed, he could just lashit to the boom to get back into harbour. Why aren't these in-boom units popular ? Could Catalina offer them as an option to in-mast furling systems ?
A friend of mine had a C&C 31 and installed an in-boom furling system. He sailed with it for years and loved it. Besides being able to keep his fully battened main, if it ever jammed, he could just lashit to the boom to get back into harbour. Why aren't these in-boom units popular ? Could Catalina offer them as an option to in-mast furling systems ?
Mulf
Hold on a minute,"it's hard to tell who is just bashing the idea". Far from it! I'm NOT bashing furling mains, I'm simply pointing out their short commings. If you don't want to hear about the negative aspects, how can you make an intellegent choice? Closing ones mind to the truth doesn't change the reality of the situation. You may have choosen to have a furling main on your boat after weighing ALL the facts, that's your choice, but denying that there are problems with the system is very narrowminded.
Hold on a minute,"it's hard to tell who is just bashing the idea". Far from it! I'm NOT bashing furling mains, I'm simply pointing out their short commings. If you don't want to hear about the negative aspects, how can you make an intellegent choice? Closing ones mind to the truth doesn't change the reality of the situation. You may have choosen to have a furling main on your boat after weighing ALL the facts, that's your choice, but denying that there are problems with the system is very narrowminded.
In mast furling
Roller furling headsails are both a performance and reliability compromise, yet they're ones most of us happily accept. Furling mainsails are much the same thing. In fact, on my Beneteau 361 the in mast furling is mechanically almost identical to the furling headsail. I've never had a problem with either sail, though I know the potential is there. Yes, I give up a few degrees in pointing ability and some speed in really light air. But at 8 kts wind speed the boat sails pretty much to it's potential. At 15 knts you're thinking about reducing sail somewhere. I'm very pleased with my mainsail furling system. If I really feel the need for speed, I'll sail on my friends Corsair F31 trimaran. We were moving at 18kts this weekend in about the same wind speed. Amazing!
Roller furling headsails are both a performance and reliability compromise, yet they're ones most of us happily accept. Furling mainsails are much the same thing. In fact, on my Beneteau 361 the in mast furling is mechanically almost identical to the furling headsail. I've never had a problem with either sail, though I know the potential is there. Yes, I give up a few degrees in pointing ability and some speed in really light air. But at 8 kts wind speed the boat sails pretty much to it's potential. At 15 knts you're thinking about reducing sail somewhere. I'm very pleased with my mainsail furling system. If I really feel the need for speed, I'll sail on my friends Corsair F31 trimaran. We were moving at 18kts this weekend in about the same wind speed. Amazing!
I'll go with in mast furling
I have both. I've been sailing a CS36 with a "traditional" main for the last 17 years and also have a Ben 393 with a furling main which I cruise on in the winter. I've had the Ben since early 2004. I now wish I had a furling main on my CS. It's so much easier!! You use the main a lot more. You have infinite reefing. And when you get in you don't have flake it, drag out the sail cover etc. I always said a furling main was a PITA, would jam at the worst times etc. but having sailed a year with one I am a convert. By the way, how many of you still hank on your headsails?
I have both. I've been sailing a CS36 with a "traditional" main for the last 17 years and also have a Ben 393 with a furling main which I cruise on in the winter. I've had the Ben since early 2004. I now wish I had a furling main on my CS. It's so much easier!! You use the main a lot more. You have infinite reefing. And when you get in you don't have flake it, drag out the sail cover etc. I always said a furling main was a PITA, would jam at the worst times etc. but having sailed a year with one I am a convert. By the way, how many of you still hank on your headsails?
Main Trim
The link below has a sail trim guides from Neil Pryde. Click on the section for tuning guides, then the "new" guide for the Beneteau 373. This has some excellent sail trim advice for in mast furling systems that probably applies to most sails of this type.
The link below has a sail trim guides from Neil Pryde. Click on the section for tuning guides, then the "new" guide for the Beneteau 373. This has some excellent sail trim advice for in mast furling systems that probably applies to most sails of this type.
Shape can only be maintained by 30% reduction of .
..... sail area. Beyond 30% furled area reduction you might as well have a pillow case flying. Ive been making my own sails for the past 30+ years. I think most sailmakers will agree that the maximum sail area reduction with a (any kind of) furler is about 30% and still have *good shape". Beyond 30% reduction there is no way to avoid the *baggy-ness* that develops. Some sail cloth cutting programs tout 40% as the max. and still have good shape; but, thats NOT been my experience -- including a flat entry or non-hollowed luff section or/and the addition of multiple/secondary foam luffs. If most sailmakers seem to universally agree that 30% is the maximum reduction (any roller furled sail) .... and 30% is only a DEEP first reef; then why would anyone who is a serious sailor consider an in-mast furler? Ever try to beat into heavy seas with a baggy mainsail?--- not a nice place to be. IMHO ... In-mast furling just does not equate to the technical needs or ability of what you need to do with a sail. ANY sail thats furled more than ~30% is just a mishapen BAG thats only good for downwind sailing. If sails were just board-flat sheets of cloth then in-mast furling would make sense; but, since sails are slightly 'spherical' in shape there is a limit of how far one can 'furl' one and maintain shape. Yup, mainsails that are designed for in-mast furling (sadly) approach a board-flat shape ... and therefore cannot be expected to have the performance of a standard cut sail.
..... sail area. Beyond 30% furled area reduction you might as well have a pillow case flying. Ive been making my own sails for the past 30+ years. I think most sailmakers will agree that the maximum sail area reduction with a (any kind of) furler is about 30% and still have *good shape". Beyond 30% reduction there is no way to avoid the *baggy-ness* that develops. Some sail cloth cutting programs tout 40% as the max. and still have good shape; but, thats NOT been my experience -- including a flat entry or non-hollowed luff section or/and the addition of multiple/secondary foam luffs. If most sailmakers seem to universally agree that 30% is the maximum reduction (any roller furled sail) .... and 30% is only a DEEP first reef; then why would anyone who is a serious sailor consider an in-mast furler? Ever try to beat into heavy seas with a baggy mainsail?--- not a nice place to be. IMHO ... In-mast furling just does not equate to the technical needs or ability of what you need to do with a sail. ANY sail thats furled more than ~30% is just a mishapen BAG thats only good for downwind sailing. If sails were just board-flat sheets of cloth then in-mast furling would make sense; but, since sails are slightly 'spherical' in shape there is a limit of how far one can 'furl' one and maintain shape. Yup, mainsails that are designed for in-mast furling (sadly) approach a board-flat shape ... and therefore cannot be expected to have the performance of a standard cut sail.
Rich
I've had my in mast sail furled about half under 20 knts of true wind and still got over 6 kts of speed, so I would have to disagree about it being equiviant to a pillow case and yeah...I was beating too comfortablely (was in the bay so waves weren't bad). I could have let out more sail and gone even faster but wasn't in a hurry...it was a relaxing day for me.
I've had my in mast sail furled about half under 20 knts of true wind and still got over 6 kts of speed, so I would have to disagree about it being equiviant to a pillow case and yeah...I was beating too comfortablely (was in the bay so waves weren't bad). I could have let out more sail and gone even faster but wasn't in a hurry...it was a relaxing day for me.
OK, but if you had a sail with correct .....
shape in the first place you probably would have an even smoother and faster ride. With a very flat cut as one would need for furling, you need MORE exposed area to do the same job. If the winds are steady in direction thats not a problem; but, when the winds are 'unstable', gusty and quartering the extra exposed area makes you vulnerable, utimately slows you down and can accumulate a lot of stress/strain in the rig. I think one must also acknowledge that a sail often needs sometimes to be 'power shaped' with a flat entry to sucessfully tack-through and to drive/punch/point through steep waves and help to accelerate coming out of a large troughs ... and you cant do that if that important shape/section of the sail is rolled up *inside* the mast (.... which I guess is a good case for in-boom furling if one MUST have a furler). Otherwise with an in-mast furler there is no way to reposition the draft (fore or aft) by halyard tension or cunningham, etc. etc. etc. and once rolled-in all youre left with is a 'speed shape' which limits tacking, lacks power to 'punch', etc. etc. If you sail in other than strictly inshore venues there WILL be a time that you will need the 'adjustability' that slab or other 'traditional' reefing systems can provide such as in clawing off a lee shore, fighting an adverse current, etc. or other situation where turning on the engine simply wont cut it. Sure, with humongous engines and always within close proximity of a safe harbor with an always safe entrance all the convenience of 'gizmos' will work; but, ... not always. Its not the size of the sail nor the exposed sail area that makes a sail function, its more the 'shape' matched to the conditions. You simply cant well *shape* a furling mainsail. You can adjust the amount of camber but not the for/aft position of that camber nor the all important 'shape' of the luff. Your choice. regards RichH
shape in the first place you probably would have an even smoother and faster ride. With a very flat cut as one would need for furling, you need MORE exposed area to do the same job. If the winds are steady in direction thats not a problem; but, when the winds are 'unstable', gusty and quartering the extra exposed area makes you vulnerable, utimately slows you down and can accumulate a lot of stress/strain in the rig. I think one must also acknowledge that a sail often needs sometimes to be 'power shaped' with a flat entry to sucessfully tack-through and to drive/punch/point through steep waves and help to accelerate coming out of a large troughs ... and you cant do that if that important shape/section of the sail is rolled up *inside* the mast (.... which I guess is a good case for in-boom furling if one MUST have a furler). Otherwise with an in-mast furler there is no way to reposition the draft (fore or aft) by halyard tension or cunningham, etc. etc. etc. and once rolled-in all youre left with is a 'speed shape' which limits tacking, lacks power to 'punch', etc. etc. If you sail in other than strictly inshore venues there WILL be a time that you will need the 'adjustability' that slab or other 'traditional' reefing systems can provide such as in clawing off a lee shore, fighting an adverse current, etc. or other situation where turning on the engine simply wont cut it. Sure, with humongous engines and always within close proximity of a safe harbor with an always safe entrance all the convenience of 'gizmos' will work; but, ... not always. Its not the size of the sail nor the exposed sail area that makes a sail function, its more the 'shape' matched to the conditions. You simply cant well *shape* a furling mainsail. You can adjust the amount of camber but not the for/aft position of that camber nor the all important 'shape' of the luff. Your choice. regards RichH
You're probably right Alan ....
I guess also, the same arguments would apply to bras on voluptuous women. Some would still want inefficient roller furling to remove those bras, etc. and never really want nor care for taking such a concept and riding it as far and as hard as is possible. Do you think they will ever make large brassieres with sugar scoop sterns and conveniently located drink holders? :-o
I guess also, the same arguments would apply to bras on voluptuous women. Some would still want inefficient roller furling to remove those bras, etc. and never really want nor care for taking such a concept and riding it as far and as hard as is possible. Do you think they will ever make large brassieres with sugar scoop sterns and conveniently located drink holders? :-o
I cruise with my in mast furling
when I'm sailing it's usually blowing 15+ knots. Most of the time the sail is reefed. I'm not trying to tweak the last 100th of a knot out of it. That's the difference between theory and cruising. The convenience beats any theoretical advantage a full roach, fully battened regular hoist main could have. What you intend to do with your boat should dictate the rig you have. If you want to go around the buoys fine. If you're going to cruise it's a different ball game.
when I'm sailing it's usually blowing 15+ knots. Most of the time the sail is reefed. I'm not trying to tweak the last 100th of a knot out of it. That's the difference between theory and cruising. The convenience beats any theoretical advantage a full roach, fully battened regular hoist main could have. What you intend to do with your boat should dictate the rig you have. If you want to go around the buoys fine. If you're going to cruise it's a different ball game.
Rick I...you got it.
RickH and Alan....we aren't saying that our sail is as performance capable as a non furling main, just that it isn't as hugh of a loss as you make it seem. I also agree that a furling boom is a much better idea then a furling mast and actually wish I had one of those, but my boat came with the furling mast and I like it. I used to not have a furling mast and always felt vunerable when single-handling when taking it down. I also had a hank on jib too and that drove me nuts as well. This boat I have now, even though it's much bigger then my old boat, it a hell of a lot easier to single-handle. I'll take that over even a half of a knot difference.
RickH and Alan....we aren't saying that our sail is as performance capable as a non furling main, just that it isn't as hugh of a loss as you make it seem. I also agree that a furling boom is a much better idea then a furling mast and actually wish I had one of those, but my boat came with the furling mast and I like it. I used to not have a furling mast and always felt vunerable when single-handling when taking it down. I also had a hank on jib too and that drove me nuts as well. This boat I have now, even though it's much bigger then my old boat, it a hell of a lot easier to single-handle. I'll take that over even a half of a knot difference.
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