Sail trim and tiller forces

[flynhi4u]

I will be the first to admit that I am just one step above clueless when it comes to sailing. I can sail and greatly enjoy doing so but have so much to learn. We recently took a friend sailing who is from the west coast and grew up sailing. He has been sailing since he was 10 or so, a licensed captain, and seems to be very knowledgeable. He asked what the knob on top of the till was for and I told him it was tiller tamer line tension knob. He remarked that if we had the sails trimmer correctly we would not need the tiller tamer. That remark has kinda stuck with me and I was just wanting some input.
Being a 20 foot boat she is easily affect by wind, waves, and shifting weight onboard. He is used to sailing much larger boats, 36-70 footers. I could see where the larger boats would be much more stable and take more force to have the same effect as what we experience.
I know very little about trimming sails other than what I have read and learned on my own. I very well could be doing it wrong as I have never really been "taught" the proper way. I pull the sheets till the sails stop luffing. If in doubt I let them out till they luff and re trim. He said I jibed wrong as I did not let the main out as we made the turn and then re trimmed once we were on the new course. I realize he is used to racing and trying to get everything he can out of boat where as we are out trying to enjoy ourselves and I am trying to keep everything as simple as I can for Cindy's benefit.
Just like in flying, everyone has their own ideas about how things work or should be but I am curious though, if the sails are trimmed properly, would there be no need for the tiller tamer?

Sam in IN

 

[justsomeguy]

If your sails are trimmed properly, you could conceivably get by without a rudder. It's been done.

When you feel a force acting on your tiller, it's either weather helm or lee helm. If you consistently feel one over the other, it's fairly simple to deduce which sail should be hauled in or let out, or a combination of both.

Weather helm- ease the main, haul in on jib sheet.
Lee helm- ease the jib, haul in on mainsheet.
Or a combination...

But this is a rudimentary example. I agree with inarathree that you'll still need to maintain a grip of some sort on the tiller, but the amount of energy required will be reduced on a well-trimmed boat.

 

[inarathree]

While your friend is correct, in theory you can sail/steer a boat, in practice on a small boat you would need a pretty calm sea state to not be bumped off coarse. I am pretty sure that if you have a rudder in the water, you need something to keep the rudder from moving, hence the need for a tiller tamer. All it is doing is keeping the rudder in one place. I never used a tiller tamer brand, I just lashed my tiller in place, and usually could sail for 15 mins or so with no or little adjustment, to either the sails or the tiller, but a boat came by making waves, its was all over, and i would have to reset.

Once your tiller is centered, its just a matter of adjusting your sails to offset other forces. Just takes some practice. I read once that Dennis Conner sailed a 12m in the Americas Cup and steered with just the sails, because of a broken rudder.

 

[Jackdaw]

Your friend is doing you no favors.

You can steer a boat with just its sails sure. But it helps immeasurably if the rudder is locked to a center position. Just like it does to the keel, sailing puts a lifting load on the rudder that makes it want to turn. If you don't lock it most rudders will turn to match the lift, and the boat turns.

Keep your tiller tamer.

 

[Stu Jackson]

If you want to learn sail trim, buy Don Guilette's excellent sail trim book, right here on this forum, go to the store.

 

[Chris14830]

Hi, I don't know about the hunter 20, but my hunter 23 always has weather helm, always trying to go into the wind if I let go of the tiller. In higher winds, its a pretty firm hand to sail straight. I've tried adjusting sales/mast rake, I can lessen it, but it seems there to stay. My brother's J24 and my friend's Catalina 27 can be steered with your pinky. I always thought that part of my keel is actually my rudder. So my tiller tamer will stay.
-Chris

 

[Joe]

You might benefit from a private sailing lesson... or perhaps an intermediate class. I mention this because in most every class I have had, the instructor will ask us to steer the boat with just sails and ballast (crew weight).... which requires locking the rudder amidships.

The exercise is not necessarily to prepare you for an emergency rudder failure, most times you can jury rig something if that happens, but rather to make you more sensitive to the boat's reaction to wind, weight position and wave action....

Next time you're out, center and lock the tiller... then see what happens when you move your weight inboard and out, forward and aft... play with relationship between headsail and main, see what happens when you power up both sails at once, or individually(by powering up I mean making the sails fuller and removing twist. De powering is essentially flattening and adding twist)..... the idea is not to use the rudder to make corrections (that slows the boat down) but to use the other tools available to keep the boat going in the direction you want.... Try it.. you'll have fun and learn a lot.

 

[flynhi4u]

Many thanks for all the help guys. I thought he was probably correct in context but with our smaller boat there are just so many other forces at play it would be hard at best. I can fly a small plane using just the throttle for pitch and doors for steerage but it is hard and far from precise. He can't do that in the A320 he flies so similar situation.
I will definitely lock the rudder in the center position and adjust the sails to see if I can control the boat with just the sails. Will have to do it on some day that there are not a hundred power boats churning up the lake. A Saturday afternoon is out. A Monday night would be perfect. I know how much weight shift affects her now as anytime one of us goes forward you have to be on the tiller to keep her straight.
As far as our tiller tamer goes, it is a homemade set up I made that was kinder on the finish of the tiller than the line wrapped around it and tied off to the pulpit. I added a laminated block under the tiller with a grove routered in it to accept the head of a stainless eye bolt. The shaft of the eye bolt goes through a hole drilled up through block and the tiller. I put a knurled knob threaded down onto the eye bolt threads. I used a piece of leather that runs through the opening of the eye bolt and is screwed to both side of the laminated block as a rub strip for the line. The line that runs corner to corner of the stern passes through the eye bolt and then we want tension on the tiller we just tighten the knob which pulls the eye bolt up. That places tension on the line between the eye bolt and the leather strap. As far as securing the line I used a small stainless pad eye in the starboard corner that I tie a bolen knot to and then on the port side I use another pad eye that I run the line through the secure it to a small jam cleat. That pad eye changes the direction of pull on the line to be straight away from the jam cleat. If we ever need to remove it in a hurry we just pull the line out of the jam cleat and let it slide through the pad eye. Works very well and for less than ten bucks the price was right
Thanks again for the clarification and I will give it a try first chance conditions exist for us to do so. Will check out the sail trim book as well. Headed to the lake!

Sam in IN

 

[All U Get]

A few years back there was a thread on sail trim that made good sense to me. If you trim your sails and the boat pulls to the weather or lee you will have to adjust your direction by moving the rudder. So you pull the tiller and put the rudder to an angle with the keel. The more pull by the sails the greater the angle needs to be. That's just like putting on the brakes and it creates turbulence that you can see behind your boat. You can still get to your destination, just get used to everyone passing you.

All U Get

 

[All U Get]

Pilots know my previous post, have fun sailing.

All U Get

 

[Davidasailor26]

A few years back there was a thread on sail trim that made good sense to me. If you trim your sails and the boat pulls to the weather or lee you will have to adjust your direction by moving the rudder. So you pull the tiller and put the rudder to an angle with the keel. The more pull by the sails the greater the angle needs to be. That's just like putting on the brakes and it creates turbulence that you can see behind your boat. You can still get to your destination, just get used to everyone passing you. All U Get

Generally I agree, but I've also read that it's ideal to have just a small amount of weather helm. Having the rudder just a few degrees off center will then generate some extra lift to windward, worth the small amount of extra drag.

 

[jwing]

My boat is similar to the Hunter 20. I installed a tiller clutch. I think it is an excellent piece of gear and I use it often. However, I am discovering that, for learning sail trim, it is more effective to not use the tiller clutch. My tiller hand is the fastest, most direct feedback on how my sail trim is affecting the boat. When I get it right, I need just the lightest of touch on the tiller to keep the boat on course. Also, I keep at least one sheet uncleated, unwinched and in my hand (a small boat advantage). That way one hand is making tiny adjustments while the other hand is sensing the effect. In light air, I've been holding both sheets in one hand. That way, I can feel the tiller and both sails.

 

[CLSailor]

I ran a charter/pleasure 50' pre-war sloop for 15 years mostly sailing off & on a mooring and crewed on (winning) 30-43 foot racers in Long Island sound for more years and am now retired to a 18.5 hunter - with a tiller tamer on a small lake. Great piece of gear for single handing.

First, if you want the most performance, re: speed, you will always have a heavy weather helm on a reach in heavy weather and any balance will be impossible w/o a rudder.. Although the rudder will act as a brake, slowing down the boat somewhat, the trade off will be in a gain in speed. Second, in very light winds it will be difficult to track w/o using the rudder. Third, going down wind in heavy or very light wind, you will have to correct using the rudder, even if you do get a balanced condition, a wave, puff, wake can and will throw it off. Balance can be achieved but only by constantly trimming. But, on a beat you can balance w/o using the rudder. There are a number of ways to get this balanced, condition, except for the wind conditions just mentioned. You can even tack to weather w/o using the rudder.

Also, good practice is to do a 180 under power w/o using the rudder (or keeping your o/b locked straight ahead) by just using thrust, throttle and forward/reverse.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

For Cindy's benefit ...

He said I jibed wrong as I did not let the main out as we made the turn and then re trimmed once we were on the new course. I realize he is used to racing and trying to get everything he can out of boat where as we are out trying to enjoy ourselves and I am trying to keep everything as simple as I can for Cindy's benefit.

Sam in IN

I wouldn't listen to his criticism about the way you jibe. He's basically telling you to ease the mainsheet as you turn downwind, which is correct in theory. In practice, on a small boat, jibes can be dangerous and hard on the rig if you don't control the boom. With the sail completely eased, the boom can lift and come swinging down on Cindy's head like a baseball bat when the sail is suddenly backwinded and swings to the opposite side.

I normally control the boom by first sheeting in before jibing. The more slack line you have, the more dangerous your jibe will be when the wind is up. (If the wind is light, I'll often just grab the mainsheet bundle up near the boom attachment and pull the boom over to the new side before the sail backwinds - but I never want to let the boom just come swinging over) If you are keeping the boom under control during a jibe, you are doing the right thing.

His other comment about trim doesn't really apply to your boat. Boats with a full length keel can be set in motion in one direction because the area of the keel far overwhelms the action of the rudder when the sails are trimmed correctly. In fact, some surprised sailors have found that it may be necessary to ease sheets in order to get the rudder to steer a new course. But with a dagger centerboard, swing keel or even a fin keel, the boat will not steer itself by trimming sails, especially if the rudder isn't fixed on the centerline.

 

[CLSailor]

Another way to "jibe" in heavy weather is to do it the way the old square riggers did it which is to wear about by turning into the wind and doing a 360 onto the opposite tack; very safe. Standard practice for them and for me with my 26' wooden boom & 700 ft. main.

 

[Mac 25]

Check out this video, steering with sail only and some of Freds other sailing videos. whttps://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=SwySzZR1ZQ8ith

 

[flynhi4u]

Thanks again for all the tips. Yes we try to control the boom when we jibe. Mainly to keep our heads attached to our neck.
I did not give much weight to our friend's criticism as I know he sails for speed. We sail for the enjoyment of it and I have tried to keep it as simple as possible not only for Cindy's benefit but also to increase our enjoyment. We have a small boat but we make the most of it, sailing every chance we get, averaging 3 times a week, even with a hours drive each way. Cindy is not the most mechanical person and struggles at times, mostly with the outboard, but does a great job sailing our small boat. If it was not for the outboard and anchoring I have no doubt she could singlehand our boat on a nice day.
I have no interest in wringing every ounce of speed out of the boat. We just want to be on the water and sail safely. I will learn to trim the sails better but like the winds we had today, it will be a constant battle as the wind on our lake is very seldom constant in direction and speed for more than a minute at a time.
I Will watch the video and see what I can learn. Thanks again.

Sam in IN

 

[Jackdaw]

I can't believe how many sailors let the main jibe it's self.

By FAR best practice is to, when the boat is dead down wind (DDW), to grab the mainsheet and throw it over from the old leeward side to the other.

When the boat is DDW the pressure is at it's least on the rig. Throwing it over prevents the snap of waiting for it to go over at the very end of the jibe. Easy even 20 knots. Like here at 1:30.

 

[Joe]

I can't believe how many sailors let the main jibe it's self.

By FAR best practice is to, when the boat is dead down wind (DDW), to grab the mainsheet and throw it over from the old leeward side to the other.

When the boat is DDW the pressure is at it's least on the rig. Throwing it over prevents the snap of waiting for it to go over at the very end of the jibe. Easy even 20 knots. Like here at 1:30......

Exactly... grabbing a handful of mainsheet and simply pulling the boom over... for end boom sheeting, of course.... will save your rig, your life and your reputation.

 

[All U Get]

Huh,,,,,,I was reading this thread again and now wonder if Scott is clairvoyant. He comments on a post in #14 that's not posted until #17 almost 8 hours later. Maybe I'll use him to check my weather. Sam let us know how well your boat handles now.

All U Get