Sail power vs diesel

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Jun 5, 2004
249
Hunter 36 Newburyport, MA
With Persephone still on the hard, I tend to grasp at any sailing-related straw to occupy my mind. I recently went through a little exercise relating sail power to diesel power on my particular boat that you may find interesting (or pathetic). According to Yanmar, at 3200rpm my 3YM30 is putting 15kw into the prop shaft, or about 20hp. If the prop can convert 70% of it to axial thrust (blades approximately 45degrees and deflecting aft that amount of the force normal to the axis from shaft torque), that implies forward power of 14hp. (A rule-of-thumb says it takes 2hp per ton of displacement to reach hull speed. My hull speed is 7.4kts, and my displacement is about 15,000 lbs, so that sounds reasonable.) At 3200rpm my boat is doing 7kts in flat water, or 11ft/sec. Converting 14hp at 550ft-lbs/sec/hp yields 7700ft-lbs/sec, which when divided by 11ft/sec yields a forward thrust of 700lbs from the prop. Consequently. if the boat is doing 7kts under sail, instead, it must also be being pushed by 700lbs forward thrust on the sails. On a beam reach doing 7kts my ST60 Wind indicates an apparent wind angle of 60-65 degrees off the bow, and simple trig with the length-vs-offset of my boom indicates that it's at an angle of 18-20degrees off the stern (and jib trimmed to match). Thus, the apparent wind is about 45degrees off the sail area, giving it a normal force push of 70% of what it would be if blowing perpendicular to that area. Consequently, the force generated is equal to that on 70% of my 800sq-ft sail area, or about 560sq-ft. Since normal force in pounds is 0.004 times area in sq-ft times the square of wind velocity in knots, that implies an apparent wind velocity equal to the square-root of 700/2.8, or a little under 16kts. That, in turn, is about 14kts of true wind on my beam, which is, indeed what it takes for me to do 7kts. Of course, it's a lot more fun actually doing it.
 
Jun 13, 2005
559
Irwin Barefoot 37 CC Sloop Port Orchard WA
I don't know where you got all your figures but

they don't look all that bad. The two things that I think you forgot however is your shaft angle in your engine calcs, and leeway. Remember only a small component of your sail driving force propels you forward. the rest is lost in side or lateral thrust resisted by your keel. Try to play with it some more. Have fun/ Joe
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
I checked in at Boatdiesel.com with a 31 foot WL

and 15,000 pound displacement and they figured about 30 HP for hull speed. and about 5 knots at 9 hp at 2600 rpm. So maybe your numbers need a little more tweeking. It is always fun to play with these theoreticals and see what you can get. Remember that you spill a lot of wind as the boat heels.
 
Jun 13, 2005
559
Irwin Barefoot 37 CC Sloop Port Orchard WA
And to add to what Ross said

As you heel your forward drive and Hull resistance separate to create a "weather couple" which turns your boat upwind. You compensate for this by using more rudder an that dissipates energy and puts on the brakes. If you do corner all the variables publish a paper, you could make some money. Have still more fun. Joe
 
May 11, 2005
3,431
Seidelman S37 Slidell, La.
Interesting thread

And I notice that you are far north of 30degrees. So is it safe to assume that A) you are still snowed in B) the water up there is still pretty firm C) it's too cold to go work on your boat D) your anxious to get on the water and bored out of your mind.
 
Feb 5, 2007
73
Catalina 27 Standard Rig Point Cadet Marina, Biloxi, MS
Pointy End

If I understand the concept of not sailing all year correctly, it means there is limited time to actually be in the boat on the water. So, when that time comes, put away the slide-rule (age showing here)and follow this time saving advice. Diesel - put boat in water, start engine, push handle, go fast, keep pointy end off rocks, other boats and such. Sail - put boat in water, stick finger in mouth - wet, hold finger in air, point the pointy end of boat where finger is cool, pull string, big white things go up, tie off string, boat moves, keep pointy end off rocks, other boats and such. Video examples of both are all over the web, even on my little web site. Have fun.
 
Jun 5, 2004
249
Hunter 36 Newburyport, MA
Good analysis, Nice'N Easy

I've certainly been known to sail in cold weather (last Dec.), but with Persephone out of the water I've no choice, and I'm climbing the walls. The past couple of days' rain and cold precluded waxing and bottom painting, so the above post is the result. As far as the analysis goes, I restricted myself to my own measured values (last season, obviously) and used a lot of crude engineering approximations to see if I could get results that squared with my measured sailing experience. The HP I derived is (grossly approximate) effective power thrust to dead astern, and the rule-of-thumb I quoted was actually the lower limit of the admiralty 2-3 hp per long ton rule I've seen quoted on other forums. My boat's engine was, indeed, sized to the rule that Ross quoted, and is a 29hp Yanmar (3YM30) on a 13,900lb dry weight boat. Obviously that power is not all directed astern, as the very purpose of a propeller is to convert angular motion to axial thrust using the attack angles and shapes of the blades (crudely assumed to be 45 degrees and flat). My approximation of 0.707 times the shaft HP resulting in forward power gave me a starting point in determning thrust which, I was delighted to see, "closed the circle" of my reasoning by giving me a predicted true wind that corresponds to what I usually see on a 7kt beam reach. Rather than start with true wind and derive the forward propulsive force, I used the propulsive force of the diesel and converted it to wind speed assuming an upright mast (which is close to the 15 degree heel I usually trim to). Just "the Devil finding things to occupy idle hands" (minds). Randy, I like your style.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
You know? I think Randy just about has it figured out. ;D

He did leave out a couple of important things like keeping the water on the outside of the boat and not letting the strings swim along side. But maybe that for more for them what sails year 'round. Oh and one 'nother thing ice is almost as bad as rocks.
 
May 11, 2005
3,431
Seidelman S37 Slidell, La.
A new term

Engineering approximation, don't know if I have ever heard that term before. Did you just make that up this morning.:) Randy, between you and Ross, you have the whole deal figured out. Kind of surprised you neglected keeping the water out of the boat.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Nice and easy, You know of course that mathematicians

differ from engineers in their obsession for accurate detail. If you ask a mathematician for the value of "Pi" he will tell you that it is 3.14159 and if you ask an engineer the same question he will tell you 3.14159 but to be on the safe side use 4. ;D Edited for egregious spelling errors
 
Feb 5, 2007
73
Catalina 27 Standard Rig Point Cadet Marina, Biloxi, MS
Even for Snow People

Nice N Easy - I just thought some things were given - even for snow people. But, just for you and Ross I'll add: Keep stuff in the boat out of the water and keep the water out of the boat. Cheers! PS. N&N - I put the pictures and video of Fly Creek back up on my new web site.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Timo, I always thought it was

Pi = 3.14159265 ;D It goes on forever if you want.;)
 
Sep 20, 2006
2,953
Hunter 33 Georgian Bay, Ontario, Canada
Ross,

we all know Pi is really 3.14159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510. Please get it right next time. :D
 
May 23, 2004
3,319
I'm in the market as were . Colonial Beach
That is a lot of Math

Wheww.....That is as nasty as some of the stuff we use when we are doing Automobile Crash Reconstructions. I try to avoid messing with that much therory and math when it relates to hobbies. Jimmy Buffett said it best..."Math sucks"
 

Timo42

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Mar 26, 2007
1,042
Venture 22 Marina del Rey
Back when I was in high school

I had a math test in which the teacher gave the value of Pi to be 3.14, I had happened to have memorized Pi as 3.141592654, and used that figure in my calculations, my answers were slightly different from the rest of the class, and were marked wrong, I of course protested, and demonstrated the exactitude of my answers, he rescored my paper but called me a smarta**, this was before pc ;D Tim
 
May 11, 2005
3,431
Seidelman S37 Slidell, La.
Seems to me

From my high school math classes some 55 years ago, seems to me I remember being taught to use 3.1416 as Pi.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
teachers are like that. if you were correct to 2 decimal

places it should have satisfied.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
When the problem has stated that we should calculate the area of a circle 3 1/2

inches in diameter. 3.14 is enough but if the diameter is stated as 3.500025 inches than we need all the pi we can get. ;)
 
May 11, 2005
3,431
Seidelman S37 Slidell, La.
When the circle

When the diameter of our circle is 10", I want all the pie I can get.
 
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