Sail cut

[Quoddy]

Our Doyle factory 1st reef is deep at 40%. When a sail maker makes a sail do they consider and design for how it will perform reefed? Should I expect it to be shaped as well as the full sail just smaller?
I’ve heard it said “nobody bothers much with trying to set a reefed sail right, because after all it’s a reefed sail.”

 

[Bill Roosa]

Sail makers take into consideration the rig and type of sailing to include local weather norms. All reefed sails should be flat(er) than when they are fully hoisted.
So yes they do design the shape of the sail when reefed.

 

[higgs]

Are you talking a main or a jib?

 

[Quoddy]

Reef shape

Main and it’s 188 sqft when full. Hunter sells internationally, so I suppose they design for some sort of average weather.

 

[All U Get]

Good Question

Our Doyle factory 1st reef is deep at 40%. When a sail maker makes a sail do they consider and design for how it will perform reefed? Should I expect it to be shaped as well as the full sail just smaller?
I’ve heard it said “nobody bothers much with trying to set a reefed sail right, because after all it’s a reefed sail.”

Mine always looks like a sail with a bag of old laundry on the bottom. My main has the bolt rope foot. I hand-tie the reefs as neat as I can but it still looks baggy. When it gets real windy I drop the entire sail instead of using the second reef, not worth the effort.
All U Get

 

[RichH]

Our Doyle factory 1st reef is deep at 40%. When a sail maker makes a sail do they consider and design for how it will perform reefed? Should I expect it to be shaped as well as the full sail just smaller?

**** Yes but usually NO, but depending on the 'cut' and shape in the 'shoulder area' -- the relative flatness or fullness (draft) in the upper panels. A full shoulder (powerful AND fast) sail would be for a heavy boat or for a boat with a 'heavy crew/load' or a boat that is not 'tender' vs. heeling ... in contrast to a 'speed sail' that is designed with 'flat-ish draft in the upper panels for FAST, 'tender' boats with lightweight crews and intended for sailing fast in relatively flat water.
A plain vanilla 'cruising sail' will be somewhere in-between the other two.

In all practicality for a cruising cut sail, the sailmaker does not make any changes to the design with respect to 'reefing' .... and the performance when reefed entirely depends on how full or how flat the 'shoulder area' was designed for the unreefed sail.


I’ve heard it said “nobody bothers much with trying to set a reefed sail right, because after all it’s a reefed sail.
*****Probably because the vast majority of sailors dont know how to 'shape' a sail once its raised.
The greatest mistake when reefing is not matching the sail shape to the WAVE conditions as most folks routinely OVERTIGHTEN the outhaul which yields a flattened and reduced draft shape .... which when going upwind is only good for sailing fast in FLAT water - a speed shape (high gear).
For sailing upwind in large waves or steep chop you really need a 'full' or powered-up (1st or 2nd gear) shape with normal or even eased 'outhaul tension'.
If you dont match the 'speed' of the boat to the 'amount of draft' (outhaul tension) in the sail, youre not going to going at optimum and will probably be 'underpowered' with a 'cranky' boat; the amount of reefing principally controls the amount of heel.

The amount of heel is governed principally by the amount of sail area exposed. The amount of draft is what makes the boat 'move'. A reefed sail that is unduly flattened by extreme outhaul tension .... isnt going to 'drive' the boat against oncoming waves in comparison to the same reefed sail with normal (or optimized) outhaul tension.

So the 'trick' when reefing for going upwind is to adjust the outhaul tension on the chosen reef VERSUS what the SPEEDO (or better, VMG) is telling you.

;-)

 

[Sam Salter]

Quaddy,

I'm a sailmaker!
40% is a bit of a big bit.

Sails are designed to be optimal when full up - The reef is an afterthought.
Usually the first reef is 25% to 30% of the sail area. Some designs have different %'s. When you're reefed your sail controls are limited. No outhaul - the clew is pulled tight by the reefing line so the bottom 1/3rd of the sail is flattened. As the wind is strong (hence the reef) the main halyard will be tight to keep the draft position forward.

You could easily have another reef point inserted say at 20% to 25% if you thought that was useful. I did a 260 last season - $150 or thereabouts. (Not looking for work; just to give you an idea)
(I also removed the foot shelf and turned it into a loose footed main - the owner likes it a lot!)

sam

 

[RichH]

Main and it’s 188 sqft when full. Hunter sells internationally, so I suppose they design for some sort of average weather.

Most plain vanilla 'cruising cut' sails are targeted for 15kts. in 2ft. of chop and for a relatively inexperienced and inattentive helmsman ... a 'forgiving' sail. Moderate draft, moderate 'shoulder', and quite 'rounded' luff entry shape that is a good compromise for the inexperienced helmsman - a large range of 'stability' in a 'wide' and variable attack angle between a stagnation stall (luffing) and a separation stall (invisible to the naked eyeball).

 

[Bob 04 H260]

I have an 04 260 with the original Doyle sails. A friend bought a 02 270 with a bad mainsail last winter. He had Doyle make him a new mainsil last summer, it was supposed to be as originally supplied by Hunter. In the fall we had both boat in slips across from each other and put up our mainsails at the same time. His new mainsail had much less roach than the original sail that I have. I do not know how these sail lofts design the sails, he expected they would have access to the original design as he used a big Doyle loft in Florida. The sail also did not come with wear patches for the spreaders that are sweep so far back on the B&R rig. The reef points appear to be in about the same position on both sails.
Bob

 

[Quoddy]

Sail change

Thanks for all the sail information.
Our H260 is a 05, only 20 or so more made after it. The manual shows the 260 and 270 (with keel) with the same sail. The sail pictured is, as best as I can tell, like ours. It appears Hunter made subtle design changes to the boat through the run of the 260/270 so they might change the sail as well. I would think the keel version would have a different sail to start with. If anything, I would think the 270 having a keel could take more roach up high than the centerboard 260. Then again the Edge (water ballast CB) which must be tender, has a huge roach.
I wonder if the performance of the 260 would improve with less roach.

 

[tkanzler]

My H340 has a very tall rig with 2+2 battens, and is very tender. The fastest I've ever sailed it, many times in fact, was with the second reef in and the jib rolled in a bit to balance the helm. Obviously the wind was up or I wouldn't have reefed it in the first place, but with my boat 'reef early and reef often' really does apply. Trying to fight weather helm with a full sail in a stiff breeze with the boat heeled way over is NOT the way to get speed out of her. Once the wind it up over 15 kts or thereabouts, reefing is the only way to fly.

I'm still learning about sail shape with a reef or two, but it's a pretty common configuration on my boat, so learning as much as I can about it is worth the effort.

 

[Nicky17000]

Quoddy,
I did as Sam Salter said, took our sail to a sailmaker and added another reef BETWEEN the original reef and the foot.
The 23.5 is the smaller sister of the 260 with the same sail configuration and similar behaviour. These boats are quite tender and dislike being sailed at a big angle of heel.
Personally I felt more comfortable with the new reef especially if I'm alone.
It flattens the sail without reducing boat speed.
Another thing to consider is if your sail, like ours was made big bellied, it will benefit from setting the mast bent to the maximum.
You may play a bit with that but the desired result would be the flattest possible without diagonal creases.

 

[Alan]

Consider your sail shape before you reef. I've seen many skippers go to a 1st reef before they have attempted to flatten their mains. Decreasing the draft and moving the draft forward combined with a full on vang will seriously de-power the main (assuming it's not blown out). This should be the first course to deal with an increasing breeze. In many cases this strategy will obviate the need to reef. Only after making these adjustments would it be necessary to put your first reef in.
Unfortunately dacron sails that are 5 or more years old are not able to maintain their designed shape and are already stretched to a more full shape. Add the additional stretch of an increasing breeze and it becomes impossible to flatten the sail properly to deal with the power. In this case reefing is the only viable option.

 

[Snowling]

We are on our second boat. The first was a Hunter 37 which did not have in-mast furling. We reefed our sails on occasion and yes it looked baggy along the boom.
Our new boat is Hunter 41 with in mast furling and no battons. We have furled it a couple of times and it seems to work well. Not sure if the shape is affected by this.
Anyone with in-mast furling offer a comment?

 

[Michael D]

Our Doyle factory 1st reef is deep at 40%. When a sail maker makes a sail do they consider and design for how it will perform reefed? Should I expect it to be shaped as well as the full sail just smaller?
I’ve heard it said “nobody bothers much with trying to set a reefed sail right, because after all it’s a reefed sail.”

B
happily when I first started the rebuild/upgrade of my boat I had the design and shop services of two Port Townsend firms one the rigging shop and two the sail loft.

Se Langt is a Westerly Berwick 31 originally a straight forward slooop with roller boom furling. That's all changed and she's now a twin headsail sloop (as opposed to using the term cutter). The main is a full batten loose foot on strong track with two deep reefs. The fores'l is a roller furled 140. So... the first step in reefing is rolling the fors'l to either 85
% or 70% as needed. Both are marked by the sail loft. The main comes down to the first reef. This provides a balanced sail plan. At this point you decide if the main need is from one reef up to full sails or from one reef down to two or to storm sails. The system also includes two running backstays and a removable inner forestay. Both running backstays can be put in place and then left there but while in place the main cannot be raised to full size. Likewise the easy to tack fore traingel area will be filled with the inner forestay. So it's a compromise trade off...ease of sail handling in light to med airs OR ease of handling in medium to heavier airs. The running backstays and the inner forestay all meet at the mast at or near the head of the reefed main however nicely beefing up the system. Next step puts the strain of a second deep reef OR a switch to storm trys'l and a jib hanked fores'l OR storm jib farther down the mast where the strain is held by four lower shrouds. We call the new fores'l a stays'l but it is not flown with the roller furled sail as in a cutter design. Again a balanced sail plan results.

There's lots of other sail trimming goodies besides this and all carefully thought out by the designers to make life easier for a single hander or single watchstander.

Most will not have the luxury of a designed from scratch rigging and sail plan but when you do replace a part of the system it certainly helps to have the shop and loft collaborate making sure you get the best possible results and hopefully a result which will allow the sails to be trimmed and balanced.

Not wanting to go overboard and tip into the area of possible spamming I'll mention the shop and loft to anyone who wants the information.....I believe this site will allow a direct email response. You will not be unhappy with the results.

 

[captmikem]

I have sailed a few boats a few miles. When you rely on your sails to get you someplace, you want them delivering power to the boat. Most of my sailing is going someplace, crossing oceans or up and down coasts. I like the first reef to be small, say 20%, and I need it to set well so I can still keep power in the boat upwind, I like the next reef to take out about 30% of what is left, and the third reef to knock out about 50% of what is left after the second. That third reef I am not as particular how it sets.
I prefer jiffy or slab reefing, simple, easy and always works, with halyards and lines led to the base of the mast where you can see and work. Makes it easy, but you need a good vane or autopilot if you are single handed or the crew is asleep below. Too many boats put their reef lines and halyards in the cockpit where you can not see what is going on and the winch is in a bad place to work.

Now if you are daysailing out in the bay your needs are probably different. Different reefs for different folks.

Mike

 

[wrbeglin]

I have a 2004 Beneteau 323 and the Neil Pryde reefing set up is excellent. I can reef the main when singlehanding from the cockpit. I've marked the halyard and continuous reefing line so I can easily reef and un-reef. The continuous reefing line that runs from the cockpit to a block on the luff, down and through the aft end of the boom to a block on the leach then down to the boom works extremely well. I don't think you can ever argue that a reefed sail shape is 100% ideal, but this comes damn close.

 

[s sauer]

Reefing Lines: The way the reefing lines and hardware are set up will have a major affect on how or if the sail can be shaped when reefed. I also agree with the above consensus that two smaller reefs provide much more flexibility than one deep reef, and you are more likely to use a first reef if it does not take a big 40% out as the only reefing possibility.
We've set up the reef line attachment tangs for two reefs on the boom just a couple inches aft of the tightest and flattest position for each reef cringle location. Then if we want to add depth to the main we can slack off a couple inches at the cabintop winches and the cringle will rise forward off the boom and slightly up, adding some depth along the boom and slightly opening the leech. On our 28.5 set up for racing, we use a fixed 'ram's horn reef tack on the goose neck so the sail can still be adjusted with halyard tension. The preferences for individual boats would obviously be different for larger / smaller / cruising / racing boats.

 

[timvg]

We get an excellent shape when reefing. We reef completely from the cockpit, with a reefing line for the tack and a 2nd line for the clew, We have a turning block mounted on the mast (above the boom) that the forward (tack) reefing line runs though. When the sail is reefed, the newly reefed tack is pulled tightly to this turning block, almost touching it. This takes all of the pressure off of the sail slugs.

It takes us about 5 minutes to reef and we get a very flat sail. With having dual reefing lines, we are able to shape the sail as needed.

 

[RichH]

Unfortunately dacron sails that are 5 or more years old are not able to maintain their designed shape and are already stretched to a more full shape. Add the additional stretch of an increasing breeze and it becomes impossible to flatten the sail properly to deal with the power. In this case reefing is the only viable option.

Very important comment by Alan ......
Dacron sails can become baggy over time but its not usually 'permanent stretch' of the sail material as much as the 'bolt rope' (that three strand rope inside a sleeve' at the luff) becomes 'fatter and shorter'. Every time the boltrope becomes strained then relaxed its loses length ... and that automatically over time adds up with the result of a grossly over-drafted sail, a sail where the max draft has moved aft in the sail and a sail with the leech 'hooked up' to windward - a slow sail that causes extreme heeling moment. The 'good thing' is that a boltrope can be adjusted back to proper length.

A quick method to check to see if such a sail has developed a 'shrunken bolt rope' OR 'when to take the sail to a sailmaker to have the boltrope adjusted:
On a windless day
1. Raise the sail full up.
2. Add ADDITIONAL halyard strain - 1" additional 'stretch' for each 11 ft. of luff length.
3. Take a perfectly square piece of large cardboard and hold it on TOP of the boom and held to the mast. If the boltrope is OK the square cardboard will fit ~almost precisely (88-90°) but if you can see light under the square towards the aft end of the boom (the aft end of the boom is 'lower' than the gooseneck OR the angle that the top of the boom makes with mast is significantly greater than 90°) ... the boltrope has shrunken and needs to be 'eased' by a sailmaker. 99% of the time such boltrope adjustment will 'restore' the shape of a 'baggy' dacron sail.
Id opine that a boltroped dacron sail needs boltrope adjustment about every 200-300 hours of (hard) sailing when in 15kts.

The problem with 'baggy dacron mainsails' is that probably MOST sailors dont know how to properly raise a dacron mainsail.
Info from the Sail Trim forum on "How to Properly RAISE a Woven Dacron Mainsail": http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=120970