Dave, My husband and I sail quite frequently and we have two small girls (ages 3 & 6). We really enjoy sailing as a family and spend overnights at anchor. Both girls love sailing and even the oldest has been at the helm to take the boat across the slot (with one of us near by). I am always worried about safety and would like to hear your opinions. We have a rule that they must be in life jackets when not below. We also routinely tether them when the bay weather is heavy. Both girls now swim (the older better than the younger). We have netting around the entire boat. My questions and things that I have been thinking of doing: 1. I was going to teach them how to do a mayday so they know what is important to get across. What do you think? 2. I hate the fact that the mustang children PFD's do not have a harness built in. I have asked Mustang if they could add this feature but they have not replied (three weeks waiting). Do you think I might be able to get a retrofit added that might work? It is a hassle to get them in/out of them since it is not that comfortable to wear both harness and lifejacket. 3. I am concerned with our water tempartures in the bay that their chance of survival is not long (15-30 minutes before they get hypothermic, I assume?) that is why I really stress keeping them safe without trying to scare them. Like any children they like to explore and I hate to stop them. I was thinking of ways to try to increase their chance if ever they made in the water (besides getting really good at man over board drills). Is there any in water techniques I can teach them? Can you help with any ideas? thank you so much for your thoughts, regards, Francine (currently on a Cal30 but hoping for a Cal36!)
- Status
child safety
your man overboard drills as you note will be critical. try mounting a flashing strobe light to their life jackets...they are inexpensive and could help see them if in the water. of course teach them how to turn them on. the only thing to do in the water for hypothermia is to curl up to reduce heat loss , keep your head out of the water, and don't waste energy thrashing around. How about a wet suit? it might be too warm to wear but a 3 mm suit will add considerably to time in the water for survival. these are the kind you see surfers wearing, one piece, very comfortable. might cause overheating on board if not kept wet and cool. they are also bouyant!! dave
your man overboard drills as you note will be critical. try mounting a flashing strobe light to their life jackets...they are inexpensive and could help see them if in the water. of course teach them how to turn them on. the only thing to do in the water for hypothermia is to curl up to reduce heat loss , keep your head out of the water, and don't waste energy thrashing around. How about a wet suit? it might be too warm to wear but a 3 mm suit will add considerably to time in the water for survival. these are the kind you see surfers wearing, one piece, very comfortable. might cause overheating on board if not kept wet and cool. they are also bouyant!! dave
Children onboard
Seems like you are on the right tack. Learning how to Mayday is no different than teaching your children how to 911. Suppose one of you go overboard, now you have one person to do the man overboard recovery and that 6 year old doing a mayday might make the difference. You might be able to have an attachment sewn onto the Mustang PFD. Just be careful that it is done properly. To allow your kids to explore a bit (in the right conditions) you might consider putting out fore-aft safety straps for them to latch onto. Not a bad habit for them to get into anyway, and at their ages even while anchored. Get really good at man overboards .... and even though I can't imagine how you resist the urge to jump in after a child, DO NOT JUMP IN TOO!! Make some decisions before it happens about how you would handle this type of emergency in different situations and practice them. This could include having the children role play. The one that went over can pretend to be keeping her head up and making sure the strobe goes on, or blow a whistle every minute. The other child can go to a predetermined location to stay out of the way. And you two can do the drill. Try to actually pick something up...it can be an interesting exercise on the bay when the wind is over 25 knots and the waves are tossing a 30 footer about. You might also take them to a nice safe warm pool and let them jump in with the Mustangs on, so they know they work, and play starting the strobe and blowing the whistle. Also, practice doing the man overhoard assuming that one of you went over (actually might be a more likely event). Your six year old might not be that far off (with practice) from being able to help at the helm, or at least spotting for that exercise. Finally, consider how you would get someone back on board. I am 200 lbs. and my girlfriend is 120. She might have enough skill now to get back to me, but getting onboard would be interesting (assume that the inwater person can't help). Depending upon conditions I latch on even inside the bay when we are the only two on the boat, and we always always wear PFD's from the time we leave the dock until the anchor is set. Your children are going to learn some real skills over the next few years. They will also have the opportunity to experience the responsibility and judgement that goes into being in charge and how it affects everyones safety. Not a bad trait to have in a child well before they learn to drive. Dan Jonas
Seems like you are on the right tack. Learning how to Mayday is no different than teaching your children how to 911. Suppose one of you go overboard, now you have one person to do the man overboard recovery and that 6 year old doing a mayday might make the difference. You might be able to have an attachment sewn onto the Mustang PFD. Just be careful that it is done properly. To allow your kids to explore a bit (in the right conditions) you might consider putting out fore-aft safety straps for them to latch onto. Not a bad habit for them to get into anyway, and at their ages even while anchored. Get really good at man overboards .... and even though I can't imagine how you resist the urge to jump in after a child, DO NOT JUMP IN TOO!! Make some decisions before it happens about how you would handle this type of emergency in different situations and practice them. This could include having the children role play. The one that went over can pretend to be keeping her head up and making sure the strobe goes on, or blow a whistle every minute. The other child can go to a predetermined location to stay out of the way. And you two can do the drill. Try to actually pick something up...it can be an interesting exercise on the bay when the wind is over 25 knots and the waves are tossing a 30 footer about. You might also take them to a nice safe warm pool and let them jump in with the Mustangs on, so they know they work, and play starting the strobe and blowing the whistle. Also, practice doing the man overhoard assuming that one of you went over (actually might be a more likely event). Your six year old might not be that far off (with practice) from being able to help at the helm, or at least spotting for that exercise. Finally, consider how you would get someone back on board. I am 200 lbs. and my girlfriend is 120. She might have enough skill now to get back to me, but getting onboard would be interesting (assume that the inwater person can't help). Depending upon conditions I latch on even inside the bay when we are the only two on the boat, and we always always wear PFD's from the time we leave the dock until the anchor is set. Your children are going to learn some real skills over the next few years. They will also have the opportunity to experience the responsibility and judgement that goes into being in charge and how it affects everyones safety. Not a bad trait to have in a child well before they learn to drive. Dan Jonas
Safety
Here's another suggestion. If you're the one who happens to go overboard, all the training and practice with your kids as to what to do may be forgotten when they see you in the water. I have laminated instructions right by my VHF radio as to what to say and do. This not only helps me to remember but also any crew person who may not be as knowledgeable. I am currently known as the "Laminate King", but when or if the info. is needed, we all know right where it is.
Here's another suggestion. If you're the one who happens to go overboard, all the training and practice with your kids as to what to do may be forgotten when they see you in the water. I have laminated instructions right by my VHF radio as to what to say and do. This not only helps me to remember but also any crew person who may not be as knowledgeable. I am currently known as the "Laminate King", but when or if the info. is needed, we all know right where it is.
Sailing...with children
Dave's idea about wet suits is right on target. Our kids wear them on board alot and I let them replace life jackets in most circumstances. Also great for at anchor in the spring and fall. I discussed what we do with their swiming instructor and he spent some extra time teaching them a technic called "drown proofing". While it has very limited value in cold water, it's a good idea for any one spending time around water and boats to know. Basically the swimmer takes a deep breath, relaxes completely and lets his head go under. The air in the chest cavity keeps you at the surface, and with the weight of the head in the water you simply float, mostly submerged with no effort. When you need more air you gently bring your arms forward in a breast stroke, and lift your head. Very little energy expended and you can remain afloat for hours. When our oldest daughter was about 6, she met a dock buddy, and we started letting them use the VHF for invites, calls home, etc. We didn't realize it at the time but by learning how to use the radio, she aquired a useful safety skill. So by all means encourage her not only to understand the radio but to actually use it.
Dave's idea about wet suits is right on target. Our kids wear them on board alot and I let them replace life jackets in most circumstances. Also great for at anchor in the spring and fall. I discussed what we do with their swiming instructor and he spent some extra time teaching them a technic called "drown proofing". While it has very limited value in cold water, it's a good idea for any one spending time around water and boats to know. Basically the swimmer takes a deep breath, relaxes completely and lets his head go under. The air in the chest cavity keeps you at the surface, and with the weight of the head in the water you simply float, mostly submerged with no effort. When you need more air you gently bring your arms forward in a breast stroke, and lift your head. Very little energy expended and you can remain afloat for hours. When our oldest daughter was about 6, she met a dock buddy, and we started letting them use the VHF for invites, calls home, etc. We didn't realize it at the time but by learning how to use the radio, she aquired a useful safety skill. So by all means encourage her not only to understand the radio but to actually use it.
Harness
It seems redundant to strap them into a harness AND a PFD. Perhaps the rule should be that they ALWAYS have the harness on (especially the 3 year old!) and focus less on the PFD. Run jacklines all over the boat, add a couple of clips so they'll always be attached to a line. It will give them a little more freedom and be infinitely more comfortable, not to mention safer by reducing the risk of them tumbling overboard by about 100%. LaDonna
It seems redundant to strap them into a harness AND a PFD. Perhaps the rule should be that they ALWAYS have the harness on (especially the 3 year old!) and focus less on the PFD. Run jacklines all over the boat, add a couple of clips so they'll always be attached to a line. It will give them a little more freedom and be infinitely more comfortable, not to mention safer by reducing the risk of them tumbling overboard by about 100%. LaDonna
Both
I have to disagree with LaDonna. My PFD has an attachment for hooking on..I use it, and I'm an adult fully capable of swimming for a few minutes if I fall over. San Francisco Bay is cold and can be treacherous. My advice might be different if you sailed elsewhere. If hooking on is the only prevention for going overboard, what happens when you are first climbing out of the cabin, or changing from one jackline to another, getting around some equipment, etc. And what happens if the boat goes over or down and you absolutely need to get the lifeline disconnected. PFD's always, always. A man drowned just a few weeks ago after jumping into the bay after his wife fell from the boat. Neither had a PFD. Wife managed to swim to shore. The most simple precautions and advance planning would have saved the day. I invested in automatic inflatable PFD's because they are easy to wear, do not get in the way, and therefore I have no excuse not to have it on. To bad they don't make those for kids...or do they? Dan Jonas (S/V Feije)
I have to disagree with LaDonna. My PFD has an attachment for hooking on..I use it, and I'm an adult fully capable of swimming for a few minutes if I fall over. San Francisco Bay is cold and can be treacherous. My advice might be different if you sailed elsewhere. If hooking on is the only prevention for going overboard, what happens when you are first climbing out of the cabin, or changing from one jackline to another, getting around some equipment, etc. And what happens if the boat goes over or down and you absolutely need to get the lifeline disconnected. PFD's always, always. A man drowned just a few weeks ago after jumping into the bay after his wife fell from the boat. Neither had a PFD. Wife managed to swim to shore. The most simple precautions and advance planning would have saved the day. I invested in automatic inflatable PFD's because they are easy to wear, do not get in the way, and therefore I have no excuse not to have it on. To bad they don't make those for kids...or do they? Dan Jonas (S/V Feije)
PFD
Sorry LaDonna, but on this one you missed the mark. Kids should where there PFD's, period. In many states it is mandatory up to a certian age. When they are little and they get used to wearing them, it becomes as common as a seat belt, you get on the boat, you put them on. When our kids were little, we never had a problem because it was just one of the rules for safe boating. I am amazed at how often I see other boaters with young childern and no PFD's. Nothing can, or should, be as precious as this cargo.
Sorry LaDonna, but on this one you missed the mark. Kids should where there PFD's, period. In many states it is mandatory up to a certian age. When they are little and they get used to wearing them, it becomes as common as a seat belt, you get on the boat, you put them on. When our kids were little, we never had a problem because it was just one of the rules for safe boating. I am amazed at how often I see other boaters with young childern and no PFD's. Nothing can, or should, be as precious as this cargo.
Oregon is one
In Oregon kids 16 years and younger are required by law to wear PFDs. You might try REI for kid sized rock climbing harnesses. With the recent popularity of indoor climbing walls, rock climbing harnesses may be better designed for comfort and mobility than boat harnesses.
In Oregon kids 16 years and younger are required by law to wear PFDs. You might try REI for kid sized rock climbing harnesses. With the recent popularity of indoor climbing walls, rock climbing harnesses may be better designed for comfort and mobility than boat harnesses.
Probably cuz I don't have kids! 
Actually, I have a friend who has used the method I described with real success. I have to agree with him that a harness to keep the kid on the boat is 10 times more important than a PFD. Of course he keeps his kid in the cockpit cuz of her age so perhaps his strategy will change later. But I still feel keeping the kid ON the boat should take utmost priority - several locking carbiners so s/he's always attached, even before entering cockpit. Whatever you do on top of that is just gravy. (This is, of course, assuming normal sailing conditions.) LaDonna
Actually, I have a friend who has used the method I described with real success. I have to agree with him that a harness to keep the kid on the boat is 10 times more important than a PFD. Of course he keeps his kid in the cockpit cuz of her age so perhaps his strategy will change later. But I still feel keeping the kid ON the boat should take utmost priority - several locking carbiners so s/he's always attached, even before entering cockpit. Whatever you do on top of that is just gravy. (This is, of course, assuming normal sailing conditions.) LaDonna
Jacket type PFD's preserve heat.
And we insist on them for all aboard. The biggest danger in Lake Erie at this time of the year (like the bay) is the cold. And, we have the little kids wear a harness in all but the calmest days. David
And we insist on them for all aboard. The biggest danger in Lake Erie at this time of the year (like the bay) is the cold. And, we have the little kids wear a harness in all but the calmest days. David
Sounds Like You are Doing it Already
The only thing I was wondering is if the kids need a "real" harness the older probably does not weigh much more than 60# and it would seem like a rigger could sew an adequate harness together without much work. A real sharp one could probably incorporate it into her PFD. After you tech them how to do a MAYDAY place a card next to the radio with the particulars like the name, color and model of the boat. This helps older folks who are a little excited as well. Do not get too worried about radio procedures with them if they can key the mike and say my mommy and daddy need help it will get the attention of everyone on the other end just fine. As for the PFD laws, in Mississippi anyone under the age of 12 on a vessel less than 26' is required to were one while underway above or below decks. It is a real struggle to keep them in them come July and August.
The only thing I was wondering is if the kids need a "real" harness the older probably does not weigh much more than 60# and it would seem like a rigger could sew an adequate harness together without much work. A real sharp one could probably incorporate it into her PFD. After you tech them how to do a MAYDAY place a card next to the radio with the particulars like the name, color and model of the boat. This helps older folks who are a little excited as well. Do not get too worried about radio procedures with them if they can key the mike and say my mommy and daddy need help it will get the attention of everyone on the other end just fine. As for the PFD laws, in Mississippi anyone under the age of 12 on a vessel less than 26' is required to were one while underway above or below decks. It is a real struggle to keep them in them come July and August.
thanks so much for all the help
Thank you all so much for the great thoughts. You all had some great ideas and we will try them out. Wanted to answer some of the comments: 1. We always were PFD's at all times. With kids you have to talk the talk and walk the walk! (now if only I could learn to floss 2. We prefer for them to have BOTH harness and PFD's on but this is a pain for them to have. The idea of retrofitting them into an all in one would be great and will try that. They do not weigh much (43 & 32 pounds). 3. I would love for them to wear their PFD's at all times. Both below and above since they have the head collars etc... they are not very comfortable. We might have kiddie revolt if we had them wear it below at all times. I have however "FORCED" them to wear it below on several occasions. I actually do not know what CA laws is on this but will look into to this. I also always force them to wear it dockside when we are packing up to home etc. 4. As to jumping in after them (especially after my youngest), we have thought about this prior and have made the pact that we would not ... but it would take all my will power not too. thanks again for all the info. francine
Thank you all so much for the great thoughts. You all had some great ideas and we will try them out. Wanted to answer some of the comments: 1. We always were PFD's at all times. With kids you have to talk the talk and walk the walk! (now if only I could learn to floss
2. We prefer for them to have BOTH harness and PFD's on but this is a pain for them to have. The idea of retrofitting them into an all in one would be great and will try that. They do not weigh much (43 & 32 pounds). 3. I would love for them to wear their PFD's at all times. Both below and above since they have the head collars etc... they are not very comfortable. We might have kiddie revolt if we had them wear it below at all times. I have however "FORCED" them to wear it below on several occasions. I actually do not know what CA laws is on this but will look into to this. I also always force them to wear it dockside when we are packing up to home etc. 4. As to jumping in after them (especially after my youngest), we have thought about this prior and have made the pact that we would not ... but it would take all my will power not too. thanks again for all the info. francinechild safety
What a wonderful experience. Having spent most of my childhood on the water, there is nothing better in my mind for your kids. Absoutely, teach them the issues around maydays, how to use the VHF (and ultimately a SSB) properly. As they get older make MOB drills a family sporting event (controlled of course). You may also want to visit our site and pull down a copy the "Emergency Activation Plan" that we have up there. It is free under the Downloads section. It is self explanatory and will help with the kids and others you have on board. As far as the harnesses go, get them used to wearing it and you guys do the same from time to time. They are ackward for everyone at first, but after a few hours you don't even know they are there. The important thing is to keep the kids comforatble so they don't decide that being on deck is a hassle. As they get older switch the jacket to the harness when they are in the cockpit and teach them how to tether in. Make tethering into a game for them. Whether kids or adults, there is only one trick to being on board. STAY THERE!!!! Teach them now that for every task including walking around the deck, they should have one hand for the boatr and one for the job at hand. Unfortunately, I don't have any magic answers other than what we have already discussed and what you are already doing. Sounds great have fun dave
What a wonderful experience. Having spent most of my childhood on the water, there is nothing better in my mind for your kids. Absoutely, teach them the issues around maydays, how to use the VHF (and ultimately a SSB) properly. As they get older make MOB drills a family sporting event (controlled of course). You may also want to visit our site and pull down a copy the "Emergency Activation Plan" that we have up there. It is free under the Downloads section. It is self explanatory and will help with the kids and others you have on board. As far as the harnesses go, get them used to wearing it and you guys do the same from time to time. They are ackward for everyone at first, but after a few hours you don't even know they are there. The important thing is to keep the kids comforatble so they don't decide that being on deck is a hassle. As they get older switch the jacket to the harness when they are in the cockpit and teach them how to tether in. Make tethering into a game for them. Whether kids or adults, there is only one trick to being on board. STAY THERE!!!! Teach them now that for every task including walking around the deck, they should have one hand for the boatr and one for the job at hand. Unfortunately, I don't have any magic answers other than what we have already discussed and what you are already doing. Sounds great have fun dave
Dare I,
make an unusual suggestion? Of course, you need to do your man-overboard drills until you have them cold. But, when Cruising World did their tests a few years ago in SF Bay, it was surprising to see how hard it was for the experts to actually stop at the victim and pick him or her up. And, the victims found the sight of a boat bearing down on them terrifying. The "out-takes" never made it into the magazine! So, this summer, when it is warm up in the Delta and your kids will want to swim anyway, why not put one person in a dinghy for back-up, put one in the water, and let the other two do a real recovery. Bet you would learn some interesting stuff, and gain lots of confidence. Good luck.
make an unusual suggestion? Of course, you need to do your man-overboard drills until you have them cold. But, when Cruising World did their tests a few years ago in SF Bay, it was surprising to see how hard it was for the experts to actually stop at the victim and pick him or her up. And, the victims found the sight of a boat bearing down on them terrifying. The "out-takes" never made it into the magazine! So, this summer, when it is warm up in the Delta and your kids will want to swim anyway, why not put one person in a dinghy for back-up, put one in the water, and let the other two do a real recovery. Bet you would learn some interesting stuff, and gain lots of confidence. Good luck.
site for downloads
The site for getting the "Emergency Activation Plan" as well as other check lists can be found at www.cruisingconcepts.org . Look under "services" and then "Downloads" dave
The site for getting the "Emergency Activation Plan" as well as other check lists can be found at www.cruisingconcepts.org . Look under "services" and then "Downloads" dave
harness
Having tried and not found any harnesses for kids with which I was happy [if they do fall you want them head up, harness has to fit over pfd and not catch on things (hatchway for intance) etc] - we chose to get a rockclimber's webbing sling (a sewn loop), 2 screwgate carabiners and an appropriate length of climbing rope for each of our kids. They put on the pfd then I loop the sling (typically 3 times) through the front of the pfd (ie armhole to armhole inside then outside). The first 'biner is on the front of the chest and links the webbing loop to the lifeline which is binered to the boat. Allows quick (parental) release when needed and doesn't trip the kids up too much. We are careful to "walk the walk" with them tooo, re pfd use, and we wear pfds that were designed for kayaking and are very comfortable and warm. This set up has worked well so far with ours (aged 4 and 8) -and they are happy to wear the gear. Additionally, remember that the kids like it best if you sail fairly flat, and the boat will go faster anyway. Best wishes, and I hope your kids like sailing as much as mine do. -Clive Roberts
Having tried and not found any harnesses for kids with which I was happy [if they do fall you want them head up, harness has to fit over pfd and not catch on things (hatchway for intance) etc] - we chose to get a rockclimber's webbing sling (a sewn loop), 2 screwgate carabiners and an appropriate length of climbing rope for each of our kids. They put on the pfd then I loop the sling (typically 3 times) through the front of the pfd (ie armhole to armhole inside then outside). The first 'biner is on the front of the chest and links the webbing loop to the lifeline which is binered to the boat. Allows quick (parental) release when needed and doesn't trip the kids up too much. We are careful to "walk the walk" with them tooo, re pfd use, and we wear pfds that were designed for kayaking and are very comfortable and warm. This set up has worked well so far with ours (aged 4 and 8) -and they are happy to wear the gear. Additionally, remember that the kids like it best if you sail fairly flat, and the boat will go faster anyway. Best wishes, and I hope your kids like sailing as much as mine do. -Clive Roberts
- Status