I'm trying to find the water leak in my 23.5. it doesn't seem to be any of the through holes. I was wondering about going the ballast tanks on the trailer to see if any water appeared in the bilge. Would this damage the boat?
Safe to fill the ballast tanks on the tailer?
- Thread starter PropellerHead
- Start date
It took me years to find my two leaks. Both were posted here with photos.
Afterwards I realized that neither was leaking while tied to the dock; only while under way. Maybe this could be a clue for you.
The first was a corroded bolt on the centerboard bracket; removed replaced and caulked while on the trailer. Kleenex or paper towels stuffed around the housing by the compreesion post never got wet again.
The second larger source of water was the bilge pump through hull. There was no loop so heeling on a starboard tack would fill the tube with water which would drain into the boat when upright again. I made a loop as high as I could under the galley but it didn't look high enough so I also inserted a check valve, the rubber flapper kind. Many people frown on this especially in salt water but nothing ever sticks to my boat in the cool fresh water lake.
To find these things I laid paper towels on the hull wherever I could reach into the various storage areas and under the aft berth.
I have no idea about filling the ballast on the trailer but after my bearing failed crossing the Rocky Mountains I weighed the boat and trailer at 3600 lbs empty with no outboard. The axel is rated at 3500 lbs. Of course sitting on your driveway is not like being on the road, and it's full for short time when you haul it out of the water. Crazy Dave might comment on the extra weight deforming the hull on the bunks?
Afterwards I realized that neither was leaking while tied to the dock; only while under way. Maybe this could be a clue for you.
The first was a corroded bolt on the centerboard bracket; removed replaced and caulked while on the trailer. Kleenex or paper towels stuffed around the housing by the compreesion post never got wet again.
The second larger source of water was the bilge pump through hull. There was no loop so heeling on a starboard tack would fill the tube with water which would drain into the boat when upright again. I made a loop as high as I could under the galley but it didn't look high enough so I also inserted a check valve, the rubber flapper kind. Many people frown on this especially in salt water but nothing ever sticks to my boat in the cool fresh water lake.
To find these things I laid paper towels on the hull wherever I could reach into the various storage areas and under the aft berth.
I have no idea about filling the ballast on the trailer but after my bearing failed crossing the Rocky Mountains I weighed the boat and trailer at 3600 lbs empty with no outboard. The axel is rated at 3500 lbs. Of course sitting on your driveway is not like being on the road, and it's full for short time when you haul it out of the water. Crazy Dave might comment on the extra weight deforming the hull on the bunks?
I should have mentioned that I did do some searching on this forum and I found that post about the center board bolt. Very informative. As it happens, my boat is taking in water at rest and under way. Someone mentioned food coloring in the water ballast and I can fall back to that if I can't get confirmation that it's ok to fill them on the trailer..
When you first pull the boat from the water the tank is full right? Sure it starts draining the instant the the ballast is above the waterline so what....10 gallons difference maybe? So go go ahead, just don't go driving around with it. Other than that, 
to everything else that Rick McDonald said.
to everything else that Rick McDonald said.If anyone fills the ballast tank up with water while sitting on the trailer, they are fools as the added eight will overload the trailer causing many things to include deformed hull, damaging seal of ballast lid seal to hull, bearings on axles being replaced and so on. A dealer sent a 260 back to the factory with the ballast in for dealer related damages to a new hull. The hauler had no clue becoming upset when I broke that lock emptying that water from the ballast tank when he had trouble with Hunter advising to stop by my dealership to see what was going on. At my suggestion the dealer was dropped. So never add water to the ballast tank while the boat is sitting on the trailer as it would be foolish.
Rick; thanks for covering the two items as mentioned. here is the key. PR said at rest but most notably underway. PR, I assume at rest with folks on board?
Let's dispense with any thru hulls items added like depth finders and so on are not leaking. The first and easy thing is to check under the step to see if the wing nut to close off the tank that the gasket is not worn out under it nor the air hole is leaking when the drain plug seal is in. You can enlargen that drain plug by twisting it.
With all that said and what I think is your problem that the hull to deck joint on the transom has failed. You can see if water is seen from inside looking at the transom with added weight like two big buzzle butts standing in the rear of the cockpit. Ok I am not sue if you have to pull rub tail off but take the insert of rub rail off and unscrew that base off all the way. Probably this is the issue.
To repair will depend but if it is the marine putty not pretty putty tat,, then take a dremel and remove that putty up to the fiberglass only and replace with a two part epoxy. Knowing it is expensive but the best to use thru years of experience is a slow curre compound called Water Tite which will take several applications to apply. Fugue overnight while &Kermit is croaking standing guard. Sorry Kermit but had to throw that in. Sand off smooth and then find the Krylon spray paint closest to paint plastics with masking off the area and spray paint.
Predrill to put Rub rail base back on using 5200 only liberally on the screw heads and put the base back in. For the insert suggest putting bottom of it in first and use a flat head screwdriver applying pressure to top lip getting the top in. If you have any questions let us know and a photo what you do see would be helpful.
Sorry Ketmit all the smoked brisket and fresh caught smoked rainbow trout is gone. Had a wonderful meal of that this past weekend up here on our mountain top which we hillbillies call vittles not victuals as that darn frog would say. Victuals is British while vittles is American just like that darn frog, Kermit.
Rick; thanks for covering the two items as mentioned. here is the key. PR said at rest but most notably underway. PR, I assume at rest with folks on board?
Let's dispense with any thru hulls items added like depth finders and so on are not leaking. The first and easy thing is to check under the step to see if the wing nut to close off the tank that the gasket is not worn out under it nor the air hole is leaking when the drain plug seal is in. You can enlargen that drain plug by twisting it.
With all that said and what I think is your problem that the hull to deck joint on the transom has failed. You can see if water is seen from inside looking at the transom with added weight like two big buzzle butts standing in the rear of the cockpit. Ok I am not sue if you have to pull rub tail off but take the insert of rub rail off and unscrew that base off all the way. Probably this is the issue.
To repair will depend but if it is the marine putty not pretty putty tat,, then take a dremel and remove that putty up to the fiberglass only and replace with a two part epoxy. Knowing it is expensive but the best to use thru years of experience is a slow curre compound called Water Tite which will take several applications to apply. Fugue overnight while &Kermit is croaking standing guard. Sorry Kermit but had to throw that in. Sand off smooth and then find the Krylon spray paint closest to paint plastics with masking off the area and spray paint.
Predrill to put Rub rail base back on using 5200 only liberally on the screw heads and put the base back in. For the insert suggest putting bottom of it in first and use a flat head screwdriver applying pressure to top lip getting the top in. If you have any questions let us know and a photo what you do see would be helpful.
Sorry Ketmit all the smoked brisket and fresh caught smoked rainbow trout is gone. Had a wonderful meal of that this past weekend up here on our mountain top which we hillbillies call vittles not victuals as that darn frog would say. Victuals is British while vittles is American just like that darn frog, Kermit.
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Dave,
I counted to ten twice, then I waited a couple of days.......but I'm still going to call you out on this. First, that is a bit caustic to make such a remark. 2nd if what you say is true, then there is no way to pull my boat out at the end of the season as it will be on the the trailer and full of water as I drive it up the ramp.
Don't be so full of your self.
Dennis
First your last part of your first message was not clear so I could not figure out what exactly you are saying.
I use to teach customers and dealers to always open up both valves before coming out of the water as water starts to drain and does not take long to drain anyway. Then leave the drains open. There are many reasons why to drain that water. First the added weight of the water or two thousand added pounds for example the 260for many who do not have the heavy duty tow vehicles will strain or may not pull the trailer, boat, gear , and water ballst up the ramp. To drop the ballast up in the parking lot with others is offensive and I have watched war of words occur standing there as a passerby. Then thu hull can and will indent causing damage in some cases which I saw, repairs to trailer and boat would occur. Leaving the drain open allows condensation to drain and prevent mold and other organisms from growing.
Before being a dealer I was an experienced investigator and in cases of civil tort and wokman's comp laws, laws were change. In mine disaster I was asked to go underground as I could determine the root cause when others were not allowed. That experience alone helps me to get to findings quickly when I see key word in this forum.
As a sailboat dealer, I encouraged Hunter to build water ballast and even presented drawings what evevtally became the 23.5 and nearly sold a quarter of each line of the water ballst boats with Hunter at times coming to me for advice on repairs. There is a lot more that I contributed to this industry but will keep that to myself only if you knew.
Propeller Head mentioned at rest or under way and from previous investigative experience I picked up on that and from my knowledge and experience knew what it probably is happening suggesting what to look for and how to fix after reading all responses. However I will stand by my statement that it is foolish to knowingly pull any water ballast boat around with the tank full for above reasons.
Years ago I had a dealer whose name I forgot told me of such an incident with a person leaving the tank full towing the boat. With the added weight the trailer was overloaded with one wheel coming off due to bearing failure due to overheat. That tire rolled over to the other lane hitting a car causing injury and damage. I am a firm believer in safety
Dennis if you ever want to bring your boat here for repairs working side by side, you will learn alot. Kermit did for five days and he learned quite a bit
I use to teach customers and dealers to always open up both valves before coming out of the water as water starts to drain and does not take long to drain anyway. Then leave the drains open. There are many reasons why to drain that water. First the added weight of the water or two thousand added pounds for example the 260for many who do not have the heavy duty tow vehicles will strain or may not pull the trailer, boat, gear , and water ballst up the ramp. To drop the ballast up in the parking lot with others is offensive and I have watched war of words occur standing there as a passerby. Then thu hull can and will indent causing damage in some cases which I saw, repairs to trailer and boat would occur. Leaving the drain open allows condensation to drain and prevent mold and other organisms from growing.
Before being a dealer I was an experienced investigator and in cases of civil tort and wokman's comp laws, laws were change. In mine disaster I was asked to go underground as I could determine the root cause when others were not allowed. That experience alone helps me to get to findings quickly when I see key word in this forum.
As a sailboat dealer, I encouraged Hunter to build water ballast and even presented drawings what evevtally became the 23.5 and nearly sold a quarter of each line of the water ballst boats with Hunter at times coming to me for advice on repairs. There is a lot more that I contributed to this industry but will keep that to myself only if you knew.
Propeller Head mentioned at rest or under way and from previous investigative experience I picked up on that and from my knowledge and experience knew what it probably is happening suggesting what to look for and how to fix after reading all responses. However I will stand by my statement that it is foolish to knowingly pull any water ballast boat around with the tank full for above reasons.
Years ago I had a dealer whose name I forgot told me of such an incident with a person leaving the tank full towing the boat. With the added weight the trailer was overloaded with one wheel coming off due to bearing failure due to overheat. That tire rolled over to the other lane hitting a car causing injury and damage. I am a firm believer in safety
Dennis if you ever want to bring your boat here for repairs working side by side, you will learn alot. Kermit did for five days and he learned quite a bit
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Dave,
Just like you say I also always pull out with the ballast door fully open and the vent plug out. And I also agree to stop and let it drain at the bottom of the ramp. But, be logical here, as the boat comes out of the water buoyancy is lost and the weight transfers to the trailer. Certainly water is draining as soon as the tank begins moving above the water level but how much would you have lost in the 5-10 seconds it takes to pull out and come to a stop? 5 to 10 gallons? So essentially you have a full ballast tank as you clear the water. Let the "investigator" in you reason this out.
As far as the anecdote of your dealer friend telling about a boat towed with the water in it, I agree that would be crazy. But you're taking the lesson way too far. I have lost a bearing on mine when it wasn't overloaded.
The OP I doubt had any intention of driving the boat around full of water, though I cautioned him against it anyway. Nor do I think he would have filled it up and let it sit on the trailer full of water all summer. But to fill it up on the trailer in his driveway to look for leaks is no different than pulling the boat out of the water. You didn't think this through, you just began bloviating.
Dennis
Just like you say I also always pull out with the ballast door fully open and the vent plug out. And I also agree to stop and let it drain at the bottom of the ramp. But, be logical here, as the boat comes out of the water buoyancy is lost and the weight transfers to the trailer. Certainly water is draining as soon as the tank begins moving above the water level but how much would you have lost in the 5-10 seconds it takes to pull out and come to a stop? 5 to 10 gallons? So essentially you have a full ballast tank as you clear the water. Let the "investigator" in you reason this out.
As far as the anecdote of your dealer friend telling about a boat towed with the water in it, I agree that would be crazy. But you're taking the lesson way too far. I have lost a bearing on mine when it wasn't overloaded.
The OP I doubt had any intention of driving the boat around full of water, though I cautioned him against it anyway. Nor do I think he would have filled it up and let it sit on the trailer full of water all summer. But to fill it up on the trailer in his driveway to look for leaks is no different than pulling the boat out of the water. You didn't think this through, you just began bloviating.
Dennis
You have no idea what I have seen over the years. Any Water ballast in the tank with a boat on the trailer is foolish and never recommended. I taught my customers at the ramp to wait till the sound of rushing water stopped and then pull away. As a former investigator it taught me to observe and be able to pick up on key information as to determine what is the problem much quicker. We can always agree to disagree and I think enough has been said
Must be some pictures of all that damage???
Its hard for me to believe that Hunter would not have designed that boat and trailer to tolerate the weight of the ballast on the trailer simply because of all the warranty issues they would likely have if they didnt. Unless you blow the ballast out using some sort of pump, the boat must be pulled out of the water in order for the ballast to drain. If its a multi step process where you have to do a little at a time, I would think that would be in the manual. Any mention in the manual?
I dont have a hunter but do have a water ballast old Mac 26S which is probably a lighter built boat and have probably pulled it out of the water well over 100 times, maybe 200 times..A few times I accidentally pulled it out without the valve open. Normally I pull it up enough so that Im not blocking the ramp for others to use and let it drain there. The tank is of course mostly full in that short drive as it takes some time to fully drain. I would not drive down the freeway with the ballast full or over a bumpy road but I have never seen any issue at all doing what I have been doing for the last 10 years.
Back to the OP issue, I would first support the frame with jack-stands just behind the axle however so the weight was not on the springs/axle/bearings etc.
Its hard for me to believe that Hunter would not have designed that boat and trailer to tolerate the weight of the ballast on the trailer simply because of all the warranty issues they would likely have if they didnt. Unless you blow the ballast out using some sort of pump, the boat must be pulled out of the water in order for the ballast to drain. If its a multi step process where you have to do a little at a time, I would think that would be in the manual. Any mention in the manual?
I dont have a hunter but do have a water ballast old Mac 26S which is probably a lighter built boat and have probably pulled it out of the water well over 100 times, maybe 200 times..A few times I accidentally pulled it out without the valve open. Normally I pull it up enough so that Im not blocking the ramp for others to use and let it drain there. The tank is of course mostly full in that short drive as it takes some time to fully drain. I would not drive down the freeway with the ballast full or over a bumpy road but I have never seen any issue at all doing what I have been doing for the last 10 years.
Back to the OP issue, I would first support the frame with jack-stands just behind the axle however so the weight was not on the springs/axle/bearings etc.
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Looks like I've learned something here. I've always loosened the tension on the ballast valve before pulling out but do not open the vent. The one or two times I've opened the vent water has run out into the bilge while pulling a short way up the ramp. So now I always pull the boat up just far enough for me to board and open the valve and vent completely. That may be why I suspect a bent forward starboard axle.
And all this just as I was about to ignore this thread.
And all this just as I was about to ignore this thread.
Sorry Kermit, you're now a named co-conspirator. Well, for what it's worth from captain dumb-ass, I intentionally filled the ballast tank about 1/3 full on the trailer two weeks ago to check for leaks. Last fall I left the valve open only about 1/4" to keep out the vermin, and then got nervous enough to check it. It leaked all around the gasket for sure! Nothing in the ship, or on the paint, just around that valve. I'll be replacing the gasket this weekend, but now the question is, how do I check it?
Walt;
I also sold MacGregors as a dealer but dropped the line when I opened in N C due to a close friend who also was a dealer to. It does not matter which company but a trailer is designed to carry the load of the intended boat, gear, and motor with a safety margin built in based on the load rang of all tire to carry everything as well as the weight of the trailer. Many in the industry to include Roger MacGregor used that approach when trailers were designed. I learned from the best. However having a the full load of the water ballast in the tank with the boat on the trailer is not recommended as any trailer would be overloaded potentially causing problems. There are times that many forget to open the valves which included me in the beginning a couple of times which is why we empty the ballast quickly while the boat is on the trailer. My point is accidental leaving the ballst in the tank vs knowingly filling up the tank with the boat on the trailer is another thing. I always err on the side of safety. Soon after getting into the business I started teaching my customers not only how to sail but also how to launch and retrieve, mast raising, docking etc. devoting upward to a week of instruction. One item included opening the valves first before loading the boat onto the trailer so Water could immediately start emptying the ballas as it took a few minutes to empty thus avoiding water spillage inside from the valves, less weight to get the boat onto the trailer and so forth. Most dealers never took the time to show the customers all the ropes. Sometimes there were suggestions from my customers and we all learned
Ggordonliddy, you did not fill the tank full and it was momentarily before emoting. Like I said there is a safety margin built in
I did have one customer who use to drop a mothball down thru the air vent into the tank with the tank open while the boat sat on the trailer to keep critters out
I also sold MacGregors as a dealer but dropped the line when I opened in N C due to a close friend who also was a dealer to. It does not matter which company but a trailer is designed to carry the load of the intended boat, gear, and motor with a safety margin built in based on the load rang of all tire to carry everything as well as the weight of the trailer. Many in the industry to include Roger MacGregor used that approach when trailers were designed. I learned from the best. However having a the full load of the water ballast in the tank with the boat on the trailer is not recommended as any trailer would be overloaded potentially causing problems. There are times that many forget to open the valves which included me in the beginning a couple of times which is why we empty the ballast quickly while the boat is on the trailer. My point is accidental leaving the ballst in the tank vs knowingly filling up the tank with the boat on the trailer is another thing. I always err on the side of safety. Soon after getting into the business I started teaching my customers not only how to sail but also how to launch and retrieve, mast raising, docking etc. devoting upward to a week of instruction. One item included opening the valves first before loading the boat onto the trailer so Water could immediately start emptying the ballas as it took a few minutes to empty thus avoiding water spillage inside from the valves, less weight to get the boat onto the trailer and so forth. Most dealers never took the time to show the customers all the ropes. Sometimes there were suggestions from my customers and we all learned
Ggordonliddy, you did not fill the tank full and it was momentarily before emoting. Like I said there is a safety margin built in
I did have one customer who use to drop a mothball down thru the air vent into the tank with the tank open while the boat sat on the trailer to keep critters out
After the boat is in the water, top off the filled tank with a hose and make a mental note of water level. Check it through the vent hole the next day and occasionally thereafter if you're worried about it.
I think it is of course good advice to not overload the trailer and to not operate the trailer with a ballast load in.
In this case however, someone is trying to find a leak in the ballast tank - which is a special case. The argument I saw and agree with is that just about every time you pull the boat out of the water, you are temporarily moving the boat on the trailer with full or nearly full ballast. Does this create some sort of problem after 20 years of doing this? My opinion, if it does, it will take about 20 years for you to notice and it might be something like a little bow in the axle and that would be just speculation on my part, maybe it does nothing at all.
For the OP, as I mentioned before, if you are worried about the trailer (which is a good idea), just support the trailer with jack stands (in the driveway) before you add the water. You are only doing this one time and for a short amount of time to try and find a leak. Definitely this puts stresses on the boat that it normally does not see either in the water or on the trailer but it is also a similar stress that you would get from normally pulling the boat up the ramp after its been in the water with the ballast tank full. If I ever need to try and find a leak (very special case), I will probably be a fool myself and support the trailer on stands and fill the ballast tank from a hose.
Because the Hunter 26 water ballast would be at the top of my short list if I did need more room and wanted to keep it trailerable, I did check the manual to see if there was any warnings about pulling the boat out full of water. I could not find anything in the manual, either Hunter forgot to mention it (hmm.. my opinion.. probably not) of they just did not think it was that important for a warning https://forums.sailboatowners.com/i...last-tanks-on-the-tailer.185608/#post-1378066
woop correct link to the manual (I hope) http://www.marlow-hunter.com/wp-con...ort/Owners-Manuals/240 260 Owner's Manual.pdf
In this case however, someone is trying to find a leak in the ballast tank - which is a special case. The argument I saw and agree with is that just about every time you pull the boat out of the water, you are temporarily moving the boat on the trailer with full or nearly full ballast. Does this create some sort of problem after 20 years of doing this? My opinion, if it does, it will take about 20 years for you to notice and it might be something like a little bow in the axle and that would be just speculation on my part, maybe it does nothing at all.
For the OP, as I mentioned before, if you are worried about the trailer (which is a good idea), just support the trailer with jack stands (in the driveway) before you add the water. You are only doing this one time and for a short amount of time to try and find a leak. Definitely this puts stresses on the boat that it normally does not see either in the water or on the trailer but it is also a similar stress that you would get from normally pulling the boat up the ramp after its been in the water with the ballast tank full. If I ever need to try and find a leak (very special case), I will probably be a fool myself and support the trailer on stands and fill the ballast tank from a hose.
Because the Hunter 26 water ballast would be at the top of my short list if I did need more room and wanted to keep it trailerable, I did check the manual to see if there was any warnings about pulling the boat out full of water. I could not find anything in the manual, either Hunter forgot to mention it (hmm.. my opinion.. probably not) of they just did not think it was that important for a warning https://forums.sailboatowners.com/i...last-tanks-on-the-tailer.185608/#post-1378066
woop correct link to the manual (I hope) http://www.marlow-hunter.com/wp-con...ort/Owners-Manuals/240 260 Owner's Manual.pdf
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Not to cloud the issue, but the option of sitting on the ramp while the tank drains is not always available. The power boaters tend to get militant when they see a mast of any description, and around these parts, the commentary can get quite nasty. We used to take the Mac out and get out of the way. Did it that way for 15 years with no damage at all to anything. Except of course the happiness of the power boaters who were annoyed that they got their shoes wet while the river drained back into the lake. (ha ha).
There's no reason why the boat cannot be on the trailer for short times, and moved from the ramp 20 yards or so if done with consideration to the fact that there's an extra 2k lb on the trailer. If somebody is stupid enough to drive down the road with loaded ballast, then they should not have been allowed to buy the boat in the first place.
Loading it up, stationary in the driveway won't do any damage. If the trailer won't support that, then the trailer, in my opinion, isn't fit to be going down the road.
There's no reason why the boat cannot be on the trailer for short times, and moved from the ramp 20 yards or so if done with consideration to the fact that there's an extra 2k lb on the trailer. If somebody is stupid enough to drive down the road with loaded ballast, then they should not have been allowed to buy the boat in the first place.
Loading it up, stationary in the driveway won't do any damage. If the trailer won't support that, then the trailer, in my opinion, isn't fit to be going down the road.