I have found a new boat to consider, The CS 36 I thought I had decided on the S2 11m but now I have found the CS 36. It looks to be of simular type and constuction, a little faster and perhaps more suited to open water. It is longer, narrower, deeper and taller. If you have any info or oppinions I would love to hear it. I plan on mostly coastal cruising and Bahamas.
S2 11m vs. Canadian sailcraft 36 (CS36)
- Thread starter jibseaman
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Contact Mainesail. He is a featured site contributor and a real maintenance guru. He has a CSC 36T and I am sure he can tell you EVERYTHING about one.
Biggest negative seems to be poor engine access.
http://closereach.com/csoa/csarticlegob01-05.pdf
Biggest negative seems to be poor engine access.
http://closereach.com/csoa/csarticlegob01-05.pdf
I own a cs36T - Love the boat. Engine access is fine actually as you can reach the entire thing without contorting yourself once you remove the side panels. Admittedly, if you are alone and have to work on something that requires you to be on one side of the engine and then another, it can be annoying to step up out of the lazerette and go down back into the boat, but that doesn't happen all that often. Most tasks only require access from one side or the other.
Before buying mine, I looked at a couple S2's. Really liked them as well, but never found the exact right one. Things to watch for on a CS36T would include:
-Blisters - Many have had blister jobs to one extent or another
-Thru hulls (gate valves) - If not already addressed
-Locker & Seahood lids (These tend to rot out - decks overall dont seem to have much of an issue) - Easy job to fix though. The only other place is around the mast collar & molded dorade box - check for wetness here too - these are repairable, but more involved.
-The Westerbeke W30 (aka BMC1.5) engine is great (Cheap and available parts from UK or Tractor dealers). I have heard the later W33 engines though had cracked piston issues.
-Wiring - Its being kind to say factory wiring was sub-par.
Before buying mine, I looked at a couple S2's. Really liked them as well, but never found the exact right one. Things to watch for on a CS36T would include:
-Blisters - Many have had blister jobs to one extent or another
-Thru hulls (gate valves) - If not already addressed
-Locker & Seahood lids (These tend to rot out - decks overall dont seem to have much of an issue) - Easy job to fix though. The only other place is around the mast collar & molded dorade box - check for wetness here too - these are repairable, but more involved.
-The Westerbeke W30 (aka BMC1.5) engine is great (Cheap and available parts from UK or Tractor dealers). I have heard the later W33 engines though had cracked piston issues.
-Wiring - Its being kind to say factory wiring was sub-par.
Thanks for the good info Bob & Wetass. I think I may need to keep looking and just buy the first good one of either I find. I do want to ask wetass what you think of the wet locker by the qtr birth, is it worth the space you loose for the bunk? Also the chart table is very tall and looks like it chops the room off loosing openness. I like the big windows of the S2 but what does anyone think of the integrity, can they be beefed up?
The 36t is an older but functional layout. We have never lacked space, felt crowded or run out of storage room and thats with 5 of us (wife and 3 kids - 9 year old and two 7 year olds) on up to 5 week cruises. The chart table doesn't seem to chop up the space and is convenient for electronics, reference books, charts, etc. Its usable.
There is a noticeable difference in interior living space between a modern 36 footer and the 36t. That being said, the layout is well thought out - handholds are in the right spot and you can move about down below and not get in each others way. Its efficient, just not as spacious as some boats now. The exception is probably the v-berth - its a bit tight getting in and out if there is someone else up there with you, but once in the berth there is plenty roomy.
You can't go wrong with either boat in my opinion.
There is a noticeable difference in interior living space between a modern 36 footer and the 36t. That being said, the layout is well thought out - handholds are in the right spot and you can move about down below and not get in each others way. Its efficient, just not as spacious as some boats now. The exception is probably the v-berth - its a bit tight getting in and out if there is someone else up there with you, but once in the berth there is plenty roomy.
You can't go wrong with either boat in my opinion.
Oh yea - the wet locker - For this design, it not only provides a great spot to put rain gear, but also allows you to sit upright when you work on the starboard side of the engine - without it you would be laying on the bunk trying to lift off the manifold and heat exchanger - so not only functional for storage, but necessary for ease of engine access/maintenance.
The CS 36's are/were very, very well built boats. They are comparable to Sabre, Tartan, Cape Dory, Bristol etc. in terms of build quality and they were ahead of their time in terms of features and design characteristics.
Many features I consider better than some of the aforementioned brands.
The 36T was designed by Raymond Wall who had been the chief designer for Camper Nicholson. Camper Nicholson was a very high end European boat builder to the Morris / Hinckley level of quality. The 36T was his second design after joining CS in Canada.
Ray designed this boat like he designed Camper Nicholson's... for the North Seas, tough.... She is a heavy boat for her size and type and the rated 15,500 displacement has been reported by many owners to be rather low in reality. When ours was last weighed she was slightly over 20k but with with some water, fuel and supplies. Most 36T's weigh in easily at over 17,000lbs.
Why are they so heavy? Heavy construction. Four years ago I installed new seacocks in the head. When I pulled the core plug out of my hole saw I was amazed. I pulled out my calipers & measured it at 3/4 of an inch thick. This through hull was quite a distance from the keel, where you'd expect a layup thickness like that.
We previously owned a a number of general production built sail boats and the difference is certainly one you can feel.. The CS is stiffer and handles rough weather without even batting an eye lash where my other boats would pound, shimmy, shake and creak in rough weather.
Our other boats were indeed faster in light air but the CS performs, tracks and sails much better in anything over 10 knots than any of our less robustly built boats did.
If you mostly sail light air and are opposed to the iron genny the 36T may not be for you though she rates very well and performs very well she is still heavy for a fin keel 36er.
If however you like to sail in all conditions with winds between 10 & 25+ the CS is a great choice for those conditions.
Construction:
The hull to deck joint, is an inward flange with deck overlap, it is bomb proof and through bolted, not screwed, for the entire length of the vessel. This flange/deck joint is roughly 7/8" thick solid fiberglass. The hull to deck joint is sealed with butyl tape. The toe rail is an aluminum extrusion that makes a great spot for fastening blocks etc. Our hull deck joint has never once leaked.
The stringers, and there are many of them, are solid fiberglass beams with no wood to rot inside them. CS manufacturered U shaped fiberglass beams and tabbed them to the hull, Morris Yachts does the same today. There is not a "liner" for hull support but rather a stringer system. She does have a "furniture liner" but it is not the structural type.
She also has longitudinal foam cored stringers running bow to stern about a 16" bellow the cove stripe to stiffen the hull even more.
The bulkheads are glassed into the hull and ours are 1.5" thick. They are not free floating and screwed like many boats are in this price range.
The chain plates, all six, affix directly to the hull via massive fiberglass knees. These go from the inward deck flange almost to the waterline. The chain plates are not affixed to the bulkheads, which can rot, a huge plus in my mind.
Solid Glass Chain Plate Knees:
There is no exterior teak, another big plus, and way ahead of the time. Even without the teak we get lots of compliments on her appearance and lines even though ours is a 1979.
The teak joinery is very well done and above average for the era. There is no "fake wood" formica on the bulkheads..
The galley is very well laid out and she has a HUGE ice box that has excellent closed cell foam insulation. She carries plenty of water under port and sbd settees, 100 gallons, and decent fuel too, 42 gallons.
The head is amazingly well thought out, big, and even my wife likes it. There is also no exposed wood in the head so showering / mold is not a big issue, though we don't shower on-board.. The shower sump is generous and you stand on a beautiful teak grate not in a puddle.
The cockpit is t-shaped, large and free flowing. Seat backs hit you in the right spot even with 3" foam cockpit cushions. On earlier models the spar was made by Proctor and they had end boom sheeting right in front of the pedestal. I prefer this set up. Later models had Isomat spars and mid boom sheeting. This will be personal preference. On our boat singlehanding is a breeze with the winches and main sheet within arms reach of the helm.
The boat balances, tracks and sails very well. She balances amazingly well under just a 135 or 150 genny and she is easily driven to hull speed under head sail alone. She turns very well too but does not get as squirmy down wind as our old Catalina 36 did.
The keel is external lead & through bolted with at least 316 ss bolts but it is rumored they are Aquamet or Nitronic bolts. They use very hefty SS backing plates. As far as I know I have not heard of any CS-36T keels needing re-setting yet.
Keel Bolts at Year 31
Deck hardware was bedded with butyl rubber which has held up amazingly well! Most of the fittings on our boat, including the genny tracks, are still bone dry after nearly 32 years.
It's the Little details CS did that I really enjoy.
For instance;
The genoa track, stanchions and toe rail all go through solid un-cored sections of the deck as do the chain plates.
Our genny tracks have still never been rebedded and have never leaked a single drop. A real testament to CS and their use of butyl tape.. In the back ground you can see the hull/deck joint and the through-bolt spacing!
In 1979 these boats had dual built in LP tank storage. You don't find to many builders that employed even one LPG tank location, let alone two, in 1979 or even came close to, or met, ABYC regulations before the ABYC existed.. CS did..
The entire bilge of these boats is gel-coated. Even under the salon floor boards where you can't see. I have a major pet-peeve with builders NOT gelcoating bilges as the un-sealed resins absorb bilge stink and don't like to give it up.
The cabin sole in our boat is a full 3mm veneer. This means you can actually sand and re-finish the cabin sole many, many times and not burn through it. Just for reference a 4X8 sheet of teak and holly with a 3.0 mm veneer will set you back over $1000.00 today. Not even Sabre used teak soles like this. Most other builders use the much less expensive veneer that is about 0.2mm thick and you get perhaps one refinish.
Cabin Sole:
These are just a few of the little details that help these boats age well and hold their value if kept up. We've owned a lot of boats, and work on many more, and this is the first boat we've owned that I do not feel the need to "upgrade" from.
As with any boat care and maintenance are the most important features. If you can find a clean well cared for 36T buy it other wise continue looking.
In short I feel CS built way to much boat for the money to compete with Sabre, Tartan and the other higher end productions builders. It was probably the US / Canadian exchange rate combined with all the "extras" they included that finally did them in.
Had the US and Canadian dollar been as they are now there is no doubt in my mind that CS would likely still be in business today..
The only negatives would be:
#1 Steep companionway (but you get used to it very quickly)
#2 Relatively shallow bilge
#3 AC electrical system. The DC is okay but not great but the AC side on many used solid copper wire.
#4 Beckson portlights, they are plastic and don't age well.
Don't listen to the folks that say engien access is bad, it is tremendous. You want bad access I'll let you work on a few of my customers Sabre's, Bristol's or Cape Dory's...
She's got nicely proportioned lines as well:
Many features I consider better than some of the aforementioned brands.
The 36T was designed by Raymond Wall who had been the chief designer for Camper Nicholson. Camper Nicholson was a very high end European boat builder to the Morris / Hinckley level of quality. The 36T was his second design after joining CS in Canada.
Ray designed this boat like he designed Camper Nicholson's... for the North Seas, tough.... She is a heavy boat for her size and type and the rated 15,500 displacement has been reported by many owners to be rather low in reality. When ours was last weighed she was slightly over 20k but with with some water, fuel and supplies. Most 36T's weigh in easily at over 17,000lbs.
Why are they so heavy? Heavy construction. Four years ago I installed new seacocks in the head. When I pulled the core plug out of my hole saw I was amazed. I pulled out my calipers & measured it at 3/4 of an inch thick. This through hull was quite a distance from the keel, where you'd expect a layup thickness like that.
We previously owned a a number of general production built sail boats and the difference is certainly one you can feel.. The CS is stiffer and handles rough weather without even batting an eye lash where my other boats would pound, shimmy, shake and creak in rough weather.
Our other boats were indeed faster in light air but the CS performs, tracks and sails much better in anything over 10 knots than any of our less robustly built boats did.
If you mostly sail light air and are opposed to the iron genny the 36T may not be for you though she rates very well and performs very well she is still heavy for a fin keel 36er.
If however you like to sail in all conditions with winds between 10 & 25+ the CS is a great choice for those conditions.
Construction:
The hull to deck joint, is an inward flange with deck overlap, it is bomb proof and through bolted, not screwed, for the entire length of the vessel. This flange/deck joint is roughly 7/8" thick solid fiberglass. The hull to deck joint is sealed with butyl tape. The toe rail is an aluminum extrusion that makes a great spot for fastening blocks etc. Our hull deck joint has never once leaked.
The stringers, and there are many of them, are solid fiberglass beams with no wood to rot inside them. CS manufacturered U shaped fiberglass beams and tabbed them to the hull, Morris Yachts does the same today. There is not a "liner" for hull support but rather a stringer system. She does have a "furniture liner" but it is not the structural type.
She also has longitudinal foam cored stringers running bow to stern about a 16" bellow the cove stripe to stiffen the hull even more.
The bulkheads are glassed into the hull and ours are 1.5" thick. They are not free floating and screwed like many boats are in this price range.
The chain plates, all six, affix directly to the hull via massive fiberglass knees. These go from the inward deck flange almost to the waterline. The chain plates are not affixed to the bulkheads, which can rot, a huge plus in my mind.
Solid Glass Chain Plate Knees:
There is no exterior teak, another big plus, and way ahead of the time. Even without the teak we get lots of compliments on her appearance and lines even though ours is a 1979.
The teak joinery is very well done and above average for the era. There is no "fake wood" formica on the bulkheads..
The galley is very well laid out and she has a HUGE ice box that has excellent closed cell foam insulation. She carries plenty of water under port and sbd settees, 100 gallons, and decent fuel too, 42 gallons.
The head is amazingly well thought out, big, and even my wife likes it. There is also no exposed wood in the head so showering / mold is not a big issue, though we don't shower on-board.. The shower sump is generous and you stand on a beautiful teak grate not in a puddle.
The cockpit is t-shaped, large and free flowing. Seat backs hit you in the right spot even with 3" foam cockpit cushions. On earlier models the spar was made by Proctor and they had end boom sheeting right in front of the pedestal. I prefer this set up. Later models had Isomat spars and mid boom sheeting. This will be personal preference. On our boat singlehanding is a breeze with the winches and main sheet within arms reach of the helm.
The boat balances, tracks and sails very well. She balances amazingly well under just a 135 or 150 genny and she is easily driven to hull speed under head sail alone. She turns very well too but does not get as squirmy down wind as our old Catalina 36 did.
The keel is external lead & through bolted with at least 316 ss bolts but it is rumored they are Aquamet or Nitronic bolts. They use very hefty SS backing plates. As far as I know I have not heard of any CS-36T keels needing re-setting yet.
Keel Bolts at Year 31
Deck hardware was bedded with butyl rubber which has held up amazingly well! Most of the fittings on our boat, including the genny tracks, are still bone dry after nearly 32 years.
It's the Little details CS did that I really enjoy.
For instance;
The genoa track, stanchions and toe rail all go through solid un-cored sections of the deck as do the chain plates.
Our genny tracks have still never been rebedded and have never leaked a single drop. A real testament to CS and their use of butyl tape.. In the back ground you can see the hull/deck joint and the through-bolt spacing!
In 1979 these boats had dual built in LP tank storage. You don't find to many builders that employed even one LPG tank location, let alone two, in 1979 or even came close to, or met, ABYC regulations before the ABYC existed.. CS did..
The entire bilge of these boats is gel-coated. Even under the salon floor boards where you can't see. I have a major pet-peeve with builders NOT gelcoating bilges as the un-sealed resins absorb bilge stink and don't like to give it up.
The cabin sole in our boat is a full 3mm veneer. This means you can actually sand and re-finish the cabin sole many, many times and not burn through it. Just for reference a 4X8 sheet of teak and holly with a 3.0 mm veneer will set you back over $1000.00 today. Not even Sabre used teak soles like this. Most other builders use the much less expensive veneer that is about 0.2mm thick and you get perhaps one refinish.
Cabin Sole:
These are just a few of the little details that help these boats age well and hold their value if kept up. We've owned a lot of boats, and work on many more, and this is the first boat we've owned that I do not feel the need to "upgrade" from.
As with any boat care and maintenance are the most important features. If you can find a clean well cared for 36T buy it other wise continue looking.
In short I feel CS built way to much boat for the money to compete with Sabre, Tartan and the other higher end productions builders. It was probably the US / Canadian exchange rate combined with all the "extras" they included that finally did them in.
Had the US and Canadian dollar been as they are now there is no doubt in my mind that CS would likely still be in business today..
The only negatives would be:
#1 Steep companionway (but you get used to it very quickly)
#2 Relatively shallow bilge
#3 AC electrical system. The DC is okay but not great but the AC side on many used solid copper wire.
#4 Beckson portlights, they are plastic and don't age well.
Don't listen to the folks that say engien access is bad, it is tremendous. You want bad access I'll let you work on a few of my customers Sabre's, Bristol's or Cape Dory's...
She's got nicely proportioned lines as well:
Wow, thanks for the wealth of info and pics. (Monitor) You should be a salesman I'm ready to buy.
I knew Maine had an encyclopedia on his boat handy. By the way, I was merely quoting a review article regarding engine access, so no doubt Maine is in the right. The only other comment I saw was that the boat has a shallow bilge. That is a plus and a minus. Plus that it is easy to maintain clean and dry and therefore non-smelly. Minus in that water can get out of the bilge onto the sole.
Regarding safety and the port sizes of the S2 36. It would definitely be an issue for me if I was going blue water sailing. You are likely okay island hopping, but for more than that the CS36T has the advantage. The S2's ports are just held on with silicone.
Regarding safety and the port sizes of the S2 36. It would definitely be an issue for me if I was going blue water sailing. You are likely okay island hopping, but for more than that the CS36T has the advantage. The S2's ports are just held on with silicone.
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