S/V Raw Faith In Trouble Once Again

[Ross]

How many of the early posters botherd to read the total news story. The boat has already sunk and therefore no need to cry for the coast guard to deem it unsafe.

I have a question for posters. Why is it that when a fellow boaters problems are discussed here very little sympathy is expressed and a whole lot of ridicule is expressed.

Stick around for a while. You will learn the lay of the land. Some give very carefully considered answers , some are in a hurry and just get the jist of the question and dash off an answer, and a few have a problem with reading comprehension. But by and large we a pretty good bunch.

 

[zeehag]

ridicule is probably expressed because the posters wouldnt know what to really do in the situation discussed. many will , but many wont. as for reading the article-- didnt i read they had used NAILS as fasteners?? installed with a NAIL GUN ??!!!! with what did they glue the masts to the deck-- didnt say that part in the article.
their idea was ok their effecting of the idea wasnt so good.

 

[Ross]

They make a nail gun that will drive 5 inch long nails. You can't build an 80 foot boat with a framing nailer.

 

[wonkodsane]

McKay has risked the lives of his crew in ridiculous conditions on more than one occasion over the years. He has been rescued/assisted by the CG at least three times. No amount of enthusiasm or wishful thinking will substitute for proper design, construction, and handling of a sailing vessel.

Read the links posted in the thread, Roger's been following this fellow's antics for some time.

It is good that no lives were lost.

It is better that Raw Faith can no longer endanger anyone.

 

[zeehag]

mebbe is why uscg watched the sinking......

but what are nails doing in a hull under water?? is spozed to be screws.....

 

[mel22]

zeehag, agree good idea, not so good follow through but have to feel for guy and I just hate to see any boat go down. I followed on of the leads posted ( wooden boat) and sounds like he may have had some problems.

Ross, agree that most are good and mean well. There is a lot of good info given on this site and appreciate those who post. Reading helps to while away cold winter nights.
I gave up a nice day for sailing the other day to spend time with our local live aboard while he prepaired to set sail on a voyage down the Arkansas river to New Orleans then over to Mobile and back up the Ten-Tom waterway and make his way back home to Arkansas. He is an old tug boat man and has experiance on the rivers, but things happen. If something were to happen I would hate for some one to see a news headline and jump to unfound conclusions, and__________

 

[Maine Sail]

How many of the early posters botherd to read the total news story. The boat has already sunk and therefore no need to cry for the coast guard to deem it unsafe.

I guess I was an "early poster" and if you look at the time this was posted, yesterday Tuesday December 7th @ 6:55 pm, the vessel had not yet sunk and there was no information or news stories stating as such because it had not yet sunk. The rescue only ocurred at 2:20 pm on 12-7-2010. Roger Long had surmised it was sunk last night but it had not yet sunk at that time, at least according to the USCG who was actually on-site and a reputable source. The vessel did not sink until this morning, December 8th, confirmed by the USCG, and this was originally posted this yesterday at 6:55 pm.

If you want to accuse others of not reading the news story or making errors you might want to review the data a little more closely yourself before inappropriately maligning folks.

http://coastguardnews.com/sailing-vessel-raw-faith-sinks/2010/12/08/
"BOSTON — The 88-foot sailing vessel Raw Faith sank in approximately 6,000 feet of water about 166 miles southeast of Nantucket, Mass., Wed., Dec. 8, 2010. The two-person crew of the Raw Faith was rescued around 2:20 p.m., Tues., by a Coast Guard Air Station Cape Cod crew."

I have a question for posters. Why is it that when a fellow boaters problems are discussed here very little sympathy is expressed and a whole lot of ridicule is expressed.

I have been here since 1999 and seen LOTS of sympathy. There is little for Captain George because he has done this THREE times now and ignored sound safety protocols. If you feel Captain George deserves sympathy then feel free to post it here.

As a taxpayer who has footed the bill, along with every other US taxpayer, not once, but twice I can honestly say I am rather relieved that this boat is gone before he killed someone. I do feel bad for him but he made his choices and chose to ignore lots of good advice given by the local boat building community here in Maine. I have little sympathy for someone this irresponsible. I am sorry but I have been following this debacle for many years and am just happy that not one person died during this experiment.

He had good intentions but chose to ignore sage advice, safety protocols, engineering and sound boat building practices. By doing so he put the lives of MANY others at risk including his crew and the rescue workers.. My buddy Chris was quite nervous for a good part of the summer because RF was anchored very, very close to his vessel. Nearly every time the wind blew RF moved and dragged anchor. Luckily Chris never got down wind of her enough for it to be an issue. He was sure glad though when she was gone.


Considering this was at least his SECOND major rescue, the first one actually injured a crew member, how much do you think this has cost us? Do you think we should pay or should he pay?

"The rescue involved four helicopter sorties from Cape Cod, two Falcon jet sorties and assistance from a C-130 plane based in Elizabeth City, N.C., which remained in the area to act as a relay for rescue communications from land to ship. The rescue also required assistance from a patrol boat and the Reliance. "

 

[kpgraci]

I have a question for posters. Why is it that when a fellow boaters problems are discussed here very little sympathy is expressed and a whole lot of ridicule is expressed.

In this case I think its justified. When someone temps nature, like a mountain climber, an airplane pilot, or a sailor, we expect that person to do their homework - if you want to be a risk taker you should not also be a dumba**. If you get in trouble, as you might, fine, it happens. But if you need to be pulled off the mountain every time you go up, then stay at home for pete's sake.

Also I might add that this was a replica, funny how with 21st century tools and materials it seems they were better able to build this boat in the 16th century.

But I must say the idea of selling all my possessions and building a ship like that as a response to the devastation they must have experienced as a result of their child's affiliation is an act of raw faith I wish I possessed.

 

[mel22]

Main Sail, Do you have any idea what it cost ever time a military aircraft goes up on a training mission. Of coarse Every rescue costs but that is why we pay taxes and fees all our life. Kind of like we pay taxes to have police but if choose to own a car that is high on the theft list we should bay extra fee to police if it is stolen because we knew it was posible for it to be stolen.
Notice I did Not name you or any one else. if you choose to read your name where it is not written that is your choise.

kpgracie Please refund to me my share of tax money that has been spent helping you after Katrina. Any one living in N.O. knows the risk they take living below sea level in a hurricane zone. I know, I called N.O. are home for a long time. Am I to assume only dumba** live there now and therefore we should stop all federal funding to them.

No I do not believe any of that. We are a nation of people that believe in helping each other in their time of need. After all look how the tax payers helped wall street money people enrich their bank accounts in their time of need. I just think we could help a fellow sailor in his time of need, especialy a well meaning one who may not have it all together.

 

[Ross]

AWWW Mel22, you try so hard to make thing simple and they aren't simple. If you leave your laptop in your car and leave the keys in the ignition and it isn't where you left it when you come back, you will call the cops and they will come. But you could have done a few things that may prevent such a happening. By the same token there are some things that can and should be done when building and crewing a boat. Not doing them is as stupid as leaving your key in the ignition of your car. People aren't going to be very sympathic in either case. The insurance co's may not even honor a claim.

 

[mel22]

Ross, all so true and yes I do come from a simpler day and time. One reason why I choose to live where I do. Boats were simple, peolple were simple then somewhere a worm crawled in and laid an egg of?

Ah well of to the boat, Good sailing

 

[wonkodsane]

Methinks Mel might be trolling. After all, he doesn't believe in carrying a VHF radio as an essential piece of safety equipment, either.

IMHO It is up to us to help others incapable of helping themselves.

It is definitely not up to us to help others who are not committed to helping themselves.

 

[Gail R]

mel22...

McKay was a danger to himself, his crew, his potential guests, and anyone who was sent out to rescue him. He was the subject of at least three rescues. After one of these episodes, the USCG declared his boat manifestly unsafe and ordered it to stay in port. He continued to ignore valuable advice from people who knew what they were doing.

You compare this to Katrina. That is apples and oranges. The people of NO did not bring Katrina on themselves. McKay most certainly brought all of his hardship on himself.

If you had been following this (and tolerating his mere presence in your sailing grounds) for as long as people like MS, Roger, myself, and other New Englanders, you might better understand our take on this.

Bottom line is that the sinking of Raw Faith is the best possible outcome. The boat is gone, and no one died.

BTW, I actually toured RF when she was tied up at PYS a year ago. That boat was in no way suited to accommodating wheelchair bound children. It was manifestly unsafe and totally unsuited to its purpose. And its skipper was an arrogant jerk who deliberately put people in danger.

Has anyone seen the interview on WBZ TV in Boston? He's blaming the park service in Salem for "forcing" him out of the harbor. Good grief, when will he ever get it?

 

[Maine Sail]

Notice I did Not name you or any one else. if you choose to read your name where it is not written that is your choise.

Mel the little game you are playing is already stale. When you consider the facts, time-lines and your quoted written words it is easy to see why I might be offended and might have thought you aimed your incorrect remarks at me.

Facts: I am the only one in this thread to call for the USCG to deem the RF "unsafe", BEFORE it sunk. The ONLY ONE. I was an "early poster" actually the first, and, being that I was the single voice in this entire thread to call for the USCG to deem this vessel unsafe, which they had done before, it seems rather obvious that;

A) You did not read the entire thread before making your accusatory post.

B) You simply aimed the derogatory, incorrect and false allegations at me without checking the facts or time-lines first yourself.

I will re-post your written words so you can perhaps understand why I took your derogatory accusations to mean me:

How many of the early posters botherd to read the total news story. The boat has already sunk and therefore no need to cry for the coast guard to deem it unsafe.

You insinuated that the accusation of "early posters" not bothering to read the story was perhaps not aimed at me? You also stated that it was my "choise", to take it that way. Yes I did, and it is simply because of your choice of words that narrowed down the filed of suspects to just ONE, me. Furthermore none of the early posters, excluding ones who never stated it should be deemed "unsafe" of course", were in fact not incorrect about the sinking. I think you owe "them", these other mysterious people who called for it to be deemed "unsafe", an apology.

Your accusation and insinuations were wrong based on fact that the vessel was still afloat and that I did read as many news stories as I could before hitting send including the USCG site.. I know that I read NUMEROUS stories before hitting send and NONE of them contained any data to support your accusations that the vessel had sunk yet.

If you want to malign others and accuse them of not bothering to read please do your own due diligence first. It might be nice of you post an apology to the "early posters" who HAD read the story correctly rather than playing little games of the, "I did Not name you or any one else" sort.. .

 

[RobertLangdirect]

. . . Why is it that when a fellow boaters problems are discussed here very little sympathy is expressed and a whole lot of ridicule is expressed.

Sorry to tell you this but many of us think that fools who paint themselves as responsible boaters somehow tarnish our reputation. In our local day races, by golly, we are required to have at least TWO PEOPLE. So this guys goes off shore to race with one helper?

If he get paid a cent for the loss then I want to know what company it was so I too might benefit from an "insurance claim."

 

[Gail R]

If he get paid a cent for the loss then I want to know what company it was so I too might benefit from an "insurance claim."

I could be wrong, but I don't think McKay had insurance on RF. I can[t imagine any company writing a policy on that hulk.

 

[GregHamby]

Seamanship/ridicule

To go to sea requires a properly equipped and sound vessel and an experienced skipper and first mate..
After reading the history of "Raw Faith" none of these qualifications were present and were even ignored. This may be why there is ridicule by those who know the realities of going to sea.
As a resident of The Outer Banks of NC we see many who attempt to sail off this coast with no weather eye , a poorly equipped vessel and a lack of experience to persevere through bad conditions. The "Raw Faith" incident is just another page in this book with some bizarre footnotes.
The 5th district CG risks their lives off the VA and NC coast every year as "adventurers" get in way over their heads. I have personally secured a perfectly functional sloop which drifted upon our shore whose solo skipper requested rescue because he did not keep his head.
Thank God for The Coast Guard

 

[tcoursey]

Raw Faith in Rockland

I saw this hulk in Rockland while on a Windjammer cruise in 2008. It was so ugly I took a picture not knowing what it was. I figured it was an abandoned hulk from 50 years ago.

 

[All U Get]

Hi all,
I'm calling for a recess while I follow the latest news. I believe the good intentions McKay started with eventually got swollowed up in his obsession, Moby Dick comes to mind. I'm no expert but I have observed this in several instances and as much as you want to believe in his quest, it was very dangerous. There are other replicas out there that have been built that are not stable under certain conditions so why risk putting to sea if you know you will be in harms way? This is the real question.
As for me, when I ask a question in this forum, give it to me straight with no sugar-coating. I'll figure it out and thank you for keeping my family safe. Thank you again.
All U Get

 

[dscribner]

I spoke with the guy for a few minutes one day. He seemed like a nice enough fellow and I believe his heart is in the right place. But to quote a friend of mine "There is a vast difference between CONFIDENCE and COMPETENCE.