Running refrigerator on shore power drains batteries?

[cahenesy]

I've got a Hunter 376, which came with a Freedom 10 inverter/charger. A single 8D AGM battery for House Battery (battery 1 on the Freedom 10) and a single AGM starter battery (battery 2 on the Freedom 10). The house battery is 2 years old. The starter battery is 2 months old.

For some time now I've had occasional issues starting the boat. Turn the key and the buzzer sounds but the engine won't turn over. It seems random and intermittent and I am trying to narrow down the cause without throwing thousands of dollars worth of parts at the boat.

To begin with, I had a very old starter battery, so I replace it a couple of months ago, but was still having intermittent issues starting the boat.

Two weeks ago while rafted out, I woke up, cranked the engine and used the inverter to power a microwave and coffee machine for 10 minutes, then shut it down. I used my stereo, inverter and cabin lights for a few hours after that. The remote panel said I had consumed approximately 20 amp hours on the house bank (didn't check starter bank). I went to start the engine to leave, turned the key, and nothing happened. Turned off all DC loads, and kept trying to start it on and off for 10 minutes with no luck. I had begun to develop a suspicion over the last several weeks that maybe the starter was bad. I knew a trick I had used on an old lawnmower with a bad starter was to rotate the crank slightly so that the starter would move to a new contact position. I tried this, and the engine started.

Fast forward to Monday of this week. I sat at a guest dock without power for ~8 hours where I used the stereo and inverter to charge a few phones and tablets. When I went to start the engine, there was a loud click and the buzzer for the engine was on, but it wouldn't turn over. I tried the rotate the crank trick a couple of time, but no luck. I sailed her into a real dock and connected shore power. I tried cranking the engine while on shore power. The engine started fine.

Fast forward to last night. I've been sitting at the dock since Monday connected to shore power, using the stereo, and running refrigeration (adler barbour cold machine which runs constantly no matter the thermostat setting.. separate problem). This whole time the remote panel on the inverter/charger has been showing AC IN is on, Charging status is "Float", voltage is 13.25.

I turn off all DC loads, disconnect shore power and go to start the engine (figuring it will work fine since I've been charging for 2 days and 2 nights). Nothing. I reconnect shore power and she cranks fine. I disconnect shore power and go drive the boat around slowly with friends utilizing nav lights and radio for about an hour. Once back at the dock, I kill the engine and try to start it again without shore power. Cranks just fine. Did this two more times, no problem. I choose not to run the fridge.

This morning I disconnect from shore power and try to start the engine. No problem.

As an experiment, I run the fridge for an hour. The inverter charger never switches off of float. An hour later I turn off the fridge, disconnect and reconnect shore power. The remote panel for the charger switches into "Accept" mode (higher charging power than "Float") and has been there for a good 10 minutes now, meaning that the batteries really were drained by running the fridge this morning while on shore power.

So I have a bunch of questions:

1. What's the likelihood I actually have a bad starter? My "Rotate the crank" trick worked once and failed once to get the boat started.
1. Why would using the inverter on Monday prevent starting? Isn't the starting battery separate?
2. Why would using the fridge when connected to shore power drain the battery starter? Shouldn't this 50 AMP output charger handle the additional load just fine? Does it indicate I possibly have the inverter/charger misconfigured?

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Johnb]

Cut to the chase and measure the starting battery voltage with a simple cheap multimeter while you are cranking/attempting to crank.

If it is good measure the voltage from the negative battery post (and I mean on the post and you might have to get a long piece of wire to do that) to the starter motor terminal while you are cranking/attempting to crank. If it is good you probably have a starter motor problem. If it is not good you have a wiring or solenoid issue.

 

[uncledom]

So I have a bunch of questions: 1. What's the likelihood I actually have a bad starter? My "Rotate the crank" trick worked once and failed once to get the boat started. 1. Why would using the inverter on Monday prevent starting? Isn't the starting battery separate? 2. Why would using the fridge when connected to shore power drain the battery starter? Shouldn't this 50 AMP output charger handle the additional load just fine? Does it indicate I possibly have the inverter/charger misconfigured? Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated!

1 I don't know
2 It should be but neither you nor I know
3 it absolutely should handle the load

On a hunch, just check your neutral safety switch and associated key to starter solenoid wiring

 

[Stu Jackson]

So I have a bunch of questions:

1. What's the likelihood I actually have a bad starter? My "Rotate the crank" trick worked once and failed once to get the boat started.
1. Why would using the inverter on Monday prevent starting? Isn't the starting battery separate?
2. Why would using the fridge when connected to shore power drain the battery starter? Shouldn't this 50 AMP output charger handle the additional load just fine? Does it indicate I possibly have the inverter/charger misconfigured?

Hi, that's a great description of your issues, and makes it easier for us to help you. Thanks.

1. ANYTHING that's electrical MEANS there is a 99% chance that it is a CONNECTION somewhere. Many boats have fuses with dead old fuseholder between the start button or key and the starter solenoid. If you have one, go find it and check it out. Also check the connectors on the starter.

1A. It should be, also long as you WERE running on the house bank.

2. It shouldn't. The charger should keep up. Configuration of the Freedom: (we have a Freedom 15 with a Link 2000 controlling it) --- what do you have to control the Freedom 10? A remote control or a Link? Do you have a battery monitor and if so what kind?

 

[Maine Sail]

I've got a Hunter 376, which came with a Freedom 10 inverter/charger. A single 8D AGM battery for House Battery (battery 1 on the Freedom 10) and a single AGM starter battery (battery 2 on the Freedom 10). The house battery is 2 years old. The starter battery is 2 months old.

For some time now I've had occasional issues starting the boat. Turn the key and the buzzer sounds but the engine won't turn over. It seems random and intermittent and I am trying to narrow down the cause without throwing thousands of dollars worth of parts at the boat.

To begin with, I had a very old starter battery, so I replace it a couple of months ago, but was still having intermittent issues starting the boat.

Two weeks ago while rafted out, I woke up, cranked the engine and used the inverter to power a microwave and coffee machine for 10 minutes, then shut it down. I used my stereo, inverter and cabin lights for a few hours after that. The remote panel said I had consumed approximately 20 amp hours on the house bank (didn't check starter bank). I went to start the engine to leave, turned the key, and nothing happened. Turned off all DC loads, and kept trying to start it on and off for 10 minutes with no luck. I had begun to develop a suspicion over the last several weeks that maybe the starter was bad. I knew a trick I had used on an old lawnmower with a bad starter was to rotate the crank slightly so that the starter would move to a new contact position. I tried this, and the engine started.

Fast forward to Monday of this week. I sat at a guest dock without power for ~8 hours where I used the stereo and inverter to charge a few phones and tablets. When I went to start the engine, there was a loud click and the buzzer for the engine was on, but it wouldn't turn over. I tried the rotate the crank trick a couple of time, but no luck. I sailed her into a real dock and connected shore power. I tried cranking the engine while on shore power. The engine started fine.

Fast forward to last night. I've been sitting at the dock since Monday connected to shore power, using the stereo, and running refrigeration (adler barbour cold machine which runs constantly no matter the thermostat setting.. separate problem). This whole time the remote panel on the inverter/charger has been showing AC IN is on, Charging status is "Float", voltage is 13.25.

I turn off all DC loads, disconnect shore power and go to start the engine (figuring it will work fine since I've been charging for 2 days and 2 nights). Nothing. I reconnect shore power and she cranks fine. I disconnect shore power and go drive the boat around slowly with friends utilizing nav lights and radio for about an hour. Once back at the dock, I kill the engine and try to start it again without shore power. Cranks just fine. Did this two more times, no problem. I choose not to run the fridge.

This morning I disconnect from shore power and try to start the engine. No problem.

As an experiment, I run the fridge for an hour. The inverter charger never switches off of float. An hour later I turn off the fridge, disconnect and reconnect shore power. The remote panel for the charger switches into "Accept" mode (higher charging power than "Float") and has been there for a good 10 minutes now, meaning that the batteries really were drained by running the fridge this morning while on shore power.

So I have a bunch of questions:

1. What's the likelihood I actually have a bad starter? My "Rotate the crank" trick worked once and failed once to get the boat started.
1. Why would using the inverter on Monday prevent starting? Isn't the starting battery separate?
2. Why would using the fridge when connected to shore power drain the battery starter? Shouldn't this 50 AMP output charger handle the additional load just fine? Does it indicate I possibly have the inverter/charger misconfigured?

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated!

We really need a lot more information to help. We need to know:

• How your battery switch/switches are wired?

• What the switches are? 1/2/BOTH, ON/OFF's etc..

• What "battery #1 and Battery #2 actually mean for the Freedom 10 because the Freedom 10 only has one main charging output and this should connect directly to the 8D. (some later models had an Echo charger port)

• Exactly how your system is wired. Even a hand drawn diagram would help.

• Where does the alternator output feed to? Battery switch? House bank? Starter bank? Diode isolator?

• Where does the Freedom 10 feed to/draw from (the big fat red & black cables)?

• What is charging the starting battery? A battery switch? A diode isolator? A combining relay? An Echo Charger??

• What do you own for test equipment in terms of volt meters, clamp meters etc.

• What battery monitor do you have brand & model?

• Have you physically measured voltage or current from each bank when under load?

Course you can always start with checking & cleaning all terminations for the engine and battery system including both positive and negative connection points.

 

[ben solomon]

It sounds to me that your emergency cross connect for the house and engine batteries may be in the wrong position or inhibiting your batteries from charging. Try changing the position of the emergency cross connect and charge overnight and see what happens. You may be inadvertently using the engine battery to run the "house" and draining it. The fact that you read a float charge could be your battery sensor reading the voltage delivered by the charger.

 

[Charles Erwin]

Some things you mention are not part of the calculus. For example, moving the crankshaft/flywheel to a different position does not move the starter motor to some other position nor have any effect on anything else electrical either.

If you answer Maine Sail's questions the rest of us can zero in on the likely culprits - so publish your answers even if you cannot answer every question but a diagram would probably be the most useful.

On the other hand if you believe in guessing a problem to death - and I for one do not embrace this belief - then start with your battery ground connections. Every connection/termination must be shiny bright, clean, and solidly connected. Oh - and don't ignore the possibility of poorly crimped end terminals.

Charles

 

[cahenesy]

Thanks to everyone for their willingness to help. This issue is driving me crazy as it's about the only thing that has ever not worked well on the boat.

This boat was built in '96 and all of the parts and wiring I am going to describe are per the original manufacturer design and construction. None of this equipment was added after manufacturer, and no modifications have been made to any of the systems.

• Wiring is as shown in the attachment. (Note the addendum that says it applies to boats with the inverter/charger option. We have this and I have confirmed that the isolator show is present and wired as shown)
• There are two battery switches. Starter and House. Both have on/off position only.
• The alternator charges both batteries. I think, but don't know for certain, that the Inverter/Charger also charges both batteries.
• The battery monitor is a Heart Interface Link 2000. It has a dual shunt which allows monitoring of both batteries (this is what I meant when I said the inverter is "connected to battery 2").
• I own a multimeter but it isn't on the boat ATM. I haven't physically measured any voltages.

 

[Ken13559]

If its Yanmar engine chances are your engine connectors or termination is no good. The GM and YM series engine seems to have this problem.
This problem usually shows up when batteries is slightly weaken. Next time starting problem happens go work the connectors contacts at engine and see if it helps.

 

[Keith in Punta Gorda]

If it's any consolation my 376 and every other one of them I have met have had this problem at times. Problem is of course bad terminal connections. Sometimes higher voltage from Chargers will help. Sometimes holding the key on the start position for 30 seconds and then retrying helps. Some have gone as far as installing an independent starting wire and button. High humidity seems to aggravate it. Good luck.

 

[Maine Sail]

You keep referring to Batt 1 & Batt 2 yet you have HOUSE & START. Which bank is the inverter direct wired to?

There are a fair number of issues with the factory wiring that make it far from ideal but we need to start with the inverter wiring.

 

[mz4wheeler]

A couple of things:

1) The push button starting circuit uses a heavy duty wire, that is because the solenoid starting current flows through this wire (and switch). Bad design, and requires perfect connections in between to make it work.

The problem is there are TWO multi-connectors (white, about 1"x2") in the circuit. One close to the switch, and another close to the engine. Pull them apart and clean the connectors.

I had the same starting problem, so I installed an independent starting solenoid that engages the REAL starting solenoid. This removes all that current through the push button switch.

BTW, I discovered the second multi-connector AFTER I installed this new solenoid [grin].

2) If you have an inverter, chances are you also have a combiner, which is suppose to isolate the starting battery, except when charging. On the combiner, there is a little switch that allow you to temporarily connect all batteries together. It is meant to be used in an emergency so you can start the engine using house batteries.

If this switch is left on, your house/starting batteries are always in parallel, and running house stuff will also discharge your starting battery. Check the combiner.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Except there's no combiner in his posted wiring diagram, only a (gasp!) isolator!

Per MS's last post, there's still not enough info to go on from the PO.

The solar is also shown connected to his (gasp!) start bank.

 

[mz4wheeler]

Turn the key and the buzzer sounds but the engine won't turn over. It seems random and intermittent ...

Install that new solenoid (as I explained in my previous post) in the starting switch circuit. Here is the one I used:

http://www.westmarine.com/buy/cole-hersee--continuous-duty-solenoid-12-volt--594242

 

[Benny17441]

Sounds like the all time and well documented starter button and wiring to the solenoid malady. As the wiring ages the voltage drop to the solenoid increases. Some have solved the problem by adding a separate starter button close to the solenoid and other have used an auxiliary relay. Check the archives as the subject is well documented. It likely does not have anything to do with your inverter usage.

 

[mz4wheeler]

Here is a nice diagram:

http://www.catalina470.org/html/starter_relay.html