Runaway diesel, black fuel in return line

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zeehag

.
Mar 26, 2009
3,198
1976 formosa 41 yankee clipper santa barbara. ca.(not there)
kloudie--awesome, ty--so, is LUCAS.. no wonder i have problems..prince of darkness lucas??!!!!

i sent copy to mechanic and saved one for me....


before i posted fro this expedition, i figgered i would need an overhaul anyway---i am hoping i dont need to press rings into this machine, as i would have to get it out the boat and take it to manzanillo 20 mi away , on a bus..so, please pray for injector pump only....i can have that done here.....without the mules burros and wagons....
 
Last edited:
Apr 3, 2008
15
Lancer 28 spencer
are these related?

how did the fuel become black? it went in clear.

about hour 40 of a nice 80 hour bashing motorsail from zihuatenejo north to barra de navidad, which should have taken only 40 hours, we discovered there was a huge dump of black almost carbony looking stuff from wet exhaust, and much black smoke, no blue tinge from obvious oil--just plain ol black smoke with higher rpms.

we get into barra and all seems well. oil has been changed and engine is fine. starts right up and no smoke.... awesome iron kitten.

we go to pull up anchor-- engine is running-- as windlass electric pulls the rpms rise... remarkably lots--- ok....ok... ok, now is scary... still rising.

cracked all injectors as the fuel all stop didn't kill the engine. and when injectors were cracked and no compression any more, blessed silence.

the entire event took less than 5 minutes from onset to silence, and no detonation or overheat.
whew.

so......

splain me loosey....what hoppened?

yes I know, runaway diesel, but what actually made fuel black and all that black stuff and smoke and why runawa? could these two incidents which occurred so close in timing, be related, or is there a salad of pandoras box i need to discover yet?
Black smoke = too much fuel or too little air. I would bet on too much fuel in your case which is consistant with your results. You never mentioned what make of engine. (or I missed it) Yanmars and similar types have an engine oil lubed Injector pump. normally they last forever (or nearly) Fuel lubed Inj Pumps wear out more often and they really dislike running out of fuel since that is what keeps them lubed. Yanmar, Perkins, Shaburu and many others the pump has a plunger system driven by a gear controlled cam and fuel is regulated by an internal rack and gear sysytem. As the throttle is advanced there is an intetrnal transistion from low speed spring to high speed spring pressure on the rack. an internal governor controlls all this . All of these goodies inside are real sensitive to rust and wear. For example if an engine sits unused in a salty clime the rack can get sticky and the governor just doesnt have the nuts to over ride that kind of pressure and you got yourself a runaway diesel. same for a worn or improperly lubed governor. Incidently on many injection pumps of the engine oil lubed type (Robert bosch to name one) the pump and governor have their own oil resivoir which often goes unserviced. And also understand that the throttle lever has no real mechanical contact with the internal fuel controll, it only allows the governor more or less controll of the engine fuel delivery.

All of this and we are hoping that shutdown was in time. usually during a runaway things inside the engine are real busy and can lead to a lot of mashed parts. shutting off the fuel is always the best way to stop the disaster. It was common practice to always have a hammer ready after any fuel system work and if things went wrong the mechanic would smash off the fuel line supplying the injection pump.

some food for thought. I personally wouldn't trust the engine to perform correctly till you find the sorce of the runaway also I would bar it over by hand using a wrench or whatever until it has turned at least two revolutions freely before I engaged the starter. Then I would crank it by starter for several revolutions before allowing it to have any fuel to run on
All this being said my bet would be either a worn governor or sticking fuel rack or if it is a detriot diesel a stuck injector.
 
May 11, 2005
3,431
Seidelman S37 Slidell, La.
Zee, I'm thinking a diaphragm in the lift pump. You don't need that puppy it your using al electric also. By pass the mechanical lift pump and see what happens. If you are gaining oil on the dipstick, the lift pump is probably leaking into the engine. I don't know about the high pressure pump, but mechanical lift pump is first thing to look at.
 
Dec 15, 2012
1
Hunter 30 Maurice River
Run away diesel

When a diesel runs away if it is running out of its base cracking the fuel injectors will not stop it. The fuel source is it's base oil. This engine stopped when the mechanic cracked the injector lines. That tells you it is a governor, injector pump issue. If it was drawing base oil into the intake again it would not respond to the loosening of the injector lines.
Most experienced Diesel mechanics would have tried to starve the engine for air. Your mechanics approach suggest he might have some thoughts on the injection pump or governor.
 
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Jun 14, 2011
277
Hunter 22 Fin Keel Lake Martin
When a diesel runs away if it is running out of its base cracking the fuel injectors will not stop it. The fuel source is it's base oil. This engine stopped when the mechanic cracked the injector lines. That tells you it is a governor, injector pump issue. If it was drawing base oil into the intake again it would not respond to the loosening of the injector lines.
Most experienced Diesel mechanics would have tried to starve the engine for air. Your mechanics approach suggest he might have some thoughts on the injection pump or governor.

I completely disagree. By cracking the injectors loose this lowered the compression in the cylinders to below ignition pressure.
 
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Dec 13, 2010
123
Hake 32RK Red Bank
runaway diesel

I think it is possible that they are related. When the oil was changed, was the crankcase overfilled? This oil becomes a source of fuel and attempts to shutdown the engine or slow the rpm will fail. Some large diesels actually run to distruction and the only practical way to shut them off is to block the air intake to prevent oxygen from entering the combustion chamber---a very difficult and dangerous act. Do not overfill the oil crankcase as a runaway possibly destructive event could occur!
 
Jun 2, 2007
403
Beneteau First 375 Slidell, LA
Everybody seems to insist on cutting off the air to shut down a runaway diesel, but I agree with kloudie - if the motor has a compression release lever you can get to, that would have to be safer and quicker.
 
Jul 18, 2009
274
marine clipper 21 ft santa ana Southern Lakes,Yukon
I completely disagree. By cracking the injectors loose this lowered the compression in the cylinders to below ignition pressure.

what ???..not if you just loosened the fuel compression fitting on the top of the injector...willikers the engine compression loss through the spray tip and if past the check valve would be non existant if not entirely impossible...his mechanic didn't remove the injector as the unit was running away...so should be no compression loss.

my guess is injector malfunction...
 

zeehag

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Mar 26, 2009
3,198
1976 formosa 41 yankee clipper santa barbara. ca.(not there)
i love watching as folks argue about what will and wont work after i splained to them that that process actually DID work, as that is exactly what the mechanic did that killed the noise and runaway.

please dont argue the does vs doesnt work thang -- i splained alladat when i made the posting...

compression was broken when all 4 injectors were cracked for release of same and cessation of continuous feed of oil from crankcase into injectors instead of diesel fuel. that is what a runaway actually is--consumption by engine of lube oil which has replaced the fuel oil in feeding engine.


what we are not sure of is the correlation between the black fuel in return hose and the runaway, as we are not certain how it became black.
 
Apr 3, 2008
15
Lancer 28 spencer
Unless you remove the injectors you have not affected the compression. cracking the fuel lines defeats the injector operation as there is a lot of stuff to prevent 500 psi of cylinder pressure from running down your injector lines into your pump. not all but most injectors are built to "POP" at a certain pressure 1800 to 3000 PSI this requires a solid column of fuel and is why air in the fuel system is a bad thing. Diesels can OCCASIONALLY run away on their own lube oil but it is not common even with a leaking turbo. Fuel has to be precicely put in correct timing and in the correct amount. if the governor fails to correctly govern the flow of fuel for some reason the engine will keep on accepting the input ( more fuel more RPM's) and will not stop taking fuel until the internals can't hold up and let go. usually a connecting rod will poke out the side. it sounds like you got to it before that happened. If you haven't experienced any ill effects on the incident you might want to buy a lottery ticket as it might be your moment. Have you posted the make of your engine?
 
Apr 3, 2008
15
Lancer 28 spencer
I am not sure as to what you mean about black oil in the return however I assume (maybe) fuel return line. That would puzzle any mechanic especially if the feed line and tank are clean. A old injector can have allowed compression to blow back into the fuel system perhaps ( and at runaway speed who knows what PSI of compression you generated). the black sounds like carbon and usually it must come from combustion. I'd be interested to know where it came from when you find the source.
some food for thought. Runaways are hard to stop and over many years I've heard many remidies and I have bad seen the results of the bad ones.
A: the compression rellease is designed for a CRANKING enging not a RUNNING one and I would advise this method as a last resort. In a runaway things are fast and close and the compression release under speed is like breaking a timing belt. you could easily bend the valves (or worse)
B: shutting off the air in a runaway WILL most likeli cause your engine to start sucking its air supply from the crankcase past the piston rings and when it deos it will also start sucking up its engine oil. YES The engine will stop but because it has fetched up a rod or main bearing.
C: I have heard that a CO2 fire extinguisher discharged in the intake will work. I've never tried or seen it done. if someone has I'd be interested to know the outcome.
D: diesels need two things to run AIR and FUEL . to stop ther engine you need to stop the supply of one of these. I am already against the AIR thing and never tried the inert gas ( CO2 or Argone )thing so I choose stopping the FUEL
E: Never Never throw water into the intake, it does nasty thing to the internals.
 

zeehag

.
Mar 26, 2009
3,198
1976 formosa 41 yankee clipper santa barbara. ca.(not there)
the black came before the runaway.

if one is not supposed to be able to cease the noise with cracking all 4 injectors as we successfully did to break compression, then how did it work for us---did we do voodoo--hellno....did we do anything un reasonable? no. we merely killed compression by cracking all 4 injectors.
it works. trust me-

diesels are air pumps. fueled by dinasaurs or wtf ..... shut off air--it dies.
shut off fuel--unless is runaway, which means it is consuming its own lube oil, at which time it will not work to use kill switch, as fuel is not what is being burned.
so--kill air
kill compression. killing compression prevents further burning of its own inner fluids.
we killed compression.
 
May 27, 2012
1,152
Oday 222 Beaver Lake, Arkansas
the mechanic "cracked" the injection lines, which stopped the flow of fuel into those injectors. You CANNOT crack the injectors loose until the injection lines are removed. Well, you could, but you would then twist the injection lines all to heck, destroying them.

As such, compression was NOT effected, only fuel flow. You have to LOOSEN or remove the injectors themselves from the cylinder head to release compression. Loosening the fuel lines has nothing to do with releasing compression, only stopping fuel flow through the injector. No magic or voodoo involved. If your mechanic is telling you otherwise, find someone else, he is clueless.

Did it run away on its own oil, and would cutting fuel supply then stop it? Possible. If it was not getting enough oil on its own and needed the additional fuel, cutting the fuel would then slow it down, which would effect to slow the oil vapors, or blow by of liquid oil, and it would die.

Diesels are actually quite simple, and a Perkins 4-108 is among one of the simplest engines. A simple compression test will indicate the engines viability, yet it seems almost impossible to get men who call themselves mechanics to perform that test. Far too often, hamfisted and/or criminal/larcenous and or incompetents will condemn an engine that minor or basic repairs could restore to prime condition.

I had a 4-108 in a skid loader. Bought it with a rod knock she banged so loud you could hear her a block away. Was blowing oil like a locomotive, but never ran away. I tore it down, had the crank ground and serviced, bought one rod (big end turned blue), reused the old rings, threw in a full gasket set and seals, and threw it back together. While I was at it I took the pump apart and put in a new shaft seal and just gave it a visual for wear. I dont think I had more than $500 parts into it including doing the crank, and it ran like a brand new engine.

Most failures are caused by neglect. In the case of my 4-108, an oil sender popped and she blew out all her oil. Boats by their nature are often sadly neglected, or the work people pay for is much too often a rip off. Find someone competent, or better yet buy a book on the engine and do it yourself. Its really not a rocket engine.

If compression is good, if the injector tips are dry and all equal in appearance, look elsewhere. Smell the oil and feel it between your fingers. Is it thick and oily, or thin and watery, and does it smell very strong of diesel. Is the oil level overfilled? These would indicate a fuel leak into the engine from either the lift pump diaphragm or the injection pump driveshaft seal. If the level gets high enough and the crank starts whipping it, oil and fuel vapors can get into the breather and feed the engine enough to runaway. Rarely will engine wear cause a diesel to runaway and I consider it doubtful. If the rings and cylinders were so worn as to permit such excessive blowby the engine would be an oil burning smoking beast and hard to start. Look elsewhere before condemning the engine.

And we can stop with the "prince of darkness". That Lucas pump is every bit as good as a Stanadyne. Neither are as good as an oil lubed pump, but the lucas CAV on that perkins regularly exceeds 5000 hours without any trouble. However, that may be where your problem lies. If the governor lets go the pump will go into full fuel flow and you will see a lot of black smoke. But again, all troubleshooting should begin with injector removal and a compression test.
 

zeehag

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Mar 26, 2009
3,198
1976 formosa 41 yankee clipper santa barbara. ca.(not there)
anchor clanker..thanyou for your worldly knowledge. have you yourself actually experienced runaway diesel.
i did.
we cracked injectors . noise stopped. no over heat. no detonate. we were fortunate.
runaway diesel is feeding engine lube oil not fuel oil. not vapors. perhaps after more than 5 min of runaway there is this, however we stopped the runaway by opening/cracking all 4 injectors..caused loss of compression and no more runaway.

we found one fuel line with a crack in it, feeds lift pump. prolly not cause.

we began tear down yesterday--found only one other anomaly so far--a metal shaving in valve second from aftmost. shaving is clean. we still looking for causes and problems.

we have yet to find reason for black fuel in return line


ps...cutting fuel supply will NOT kill a runaway diesel. i know. btdt. cracking injectors will.


we have availa ble to us a very well recommended injector pump service person. rebuilds and services for dirt cheap--if ye gotta have an injector pump fail--here is the place for that.

however--we re n0ot convinced that is the problem in and of itself...there are more than one problem here...


valve springs are in good shape.

we are buying compression tester and will tear more into this in a few days....
 
May 27, 2012
1,152
Oday 222 Beaver Lake, Arkansas
runaway diesel is feeding engine lube oil not fuel oil. not vapors.

we have yet to find reason for black fuel in return line
Runaways associated by engine oil are most common to the 2 stroke Detroit. Most runaways in 4 strokes are caused by a broken governor in the injection pump allowing it to go into full fuel flow. Most, not all.

Fuel flows from the tank, to the injection lift pump (if equipped), then to the injection pump, and back to the tank. If the black color is not something coming from the tank it must then be engine oil from a blown lift pump or leaking pump driveshaft seal. If enough engine oil was passed to the tank to turn the fuel black, then the oil was equally contaminated with fuel and likely overfilled the sump and is possibly the cause of your runaway issue.

I worked on aircraft engines for a while, too, and you dont just go pulling engines apart without doing proper troubleshooting analysis beforehand and documenting the results on paper. While a metal shaving inside the engine certainly bears investigation, I repeat that the engine should not have been opened up before and until proper diagnosis suggested the need. That your mechanic is tearing your engine apart before knowing the cause of the runaway or contaminated fuel or having run a compression test bears much caution. That is not the proper way to go about it but no going back now.
 

zeehag

.
Mar 26, 2009
3,198
1976 formosa 41 yankee clipper santa barbara. ca.(not there)
engine oil is oil. we checked that first.
valve springs are fine.

we buying a compression tester for our own use--so far have come upon need for one 3 times in less than 6 months, therefore, is a purchase-able item..lol
next phase is compression check.

we have a pump repair and rebuild guy here so we good for that--excellent rep and quality work, tiny pricing--love it here in tropical mexico....

we will be tearing more into this job in a few days....

it took the mechanic/boatwright a month and half to recover after the adrenaline exercise in my bilge...and pescaderos are still talking about this ..lol was exciting for them--this was an unusual and very exciting morning for those in my area....

as for tearing down engine--we have reallly good reason for this--my mechanic has sailed with me f or around 1000 miles of this 2500 i have put on htis boat and its engine--multiply the 2500 miles by 3.5 kts per hour to get my low number of hours before this to be overhaul...this has not been an easy time for my perkins.

btw--my mechanic came highly recommended tom from a 1998 encounter with one of the boats he built--awesome work. he is neither greedy nor into unnecessary work--i am most fortunate to have found this soul.
 
May 27, 2012
1,152
Oday 222 Beaver Lake, Arkansas
ps...cutting fuel supply will NOT kill a runaway diesel. i know. btdt. cracking injectors will.

That is not true, sorry

You cannot loosen injectors until the injection lines are removed. The injections lines are what you or your mechanic "cracked", not the injectors themselves. Please read that again. You cannot loosen the injectors until you remove the injection lines. The lines feed the fuel. The injectors have to be removed before you could ever hope to release compression. Better would be to clamp the fuel lines with alligator vice grips

If you had an actual runaway, and if it was in fact caused by engine oil, the only reason it stopped was because it was not getting enough oil to sustain itself once the injectors stopped fueling the engine, which happened when the lines were loosened. Had it been, loosening the lines would have little or no effect.

For the sake of conversation, most all diesel mechanics, and in fact many books and manuals refer to cracking the injection lines as cracking the injectors. But it never means loosening the injectors themselves, only the lines.

No diesel mechanic who knew diesels very well and had knowledge of runaways would want to be anywhere near a runaway diesel trying to pull the injectors out if it didnt slow down or stop after cracking the lines. Runway diesels have exploded and hurt and killed people when the engines explode. Its not something you want to stand next near for very long. In fact, loosening lines is not recommended either as it puts your body right over an engine that could explode.

Actually, if a diesel was only idling, and you tried to remove an injector, the engine could blow it out with enough force to take your head off. You would have to unscrew it almost all the way out before your could ever hope to cut the compression, and if its running at high speed on its own oil, trying to unscrew an injector would be simply dangerous. Ive never even read of such a thing before and have been wrenching on them almost 40 years.

Awful low hours. 2500/3.5 = 714 hours? the 4-108 I "freshened" after oil starvation had almost 8K hours. I put another 2K on it and I bet its still running happily along. And a skid loaded is a much more evil environment than a boat, generally.
 
May 27, 2012
1,152
Oday 222 Beaver Lake, Arkansas
Have I seen a runaway?

I was nearby twice in my life when it happened.

The first was a locomotive with a 149 series Detroit. It went whoop-bang, and then huge amounts of white and black smoke and steam came out mixed momentarily with flames. I was about 100 feet away. They uncoupled the engines and headed for the yard. I was about 12 years old and took off chasing it on my bike. They let me come up and see it, what a mess. One whole section of head was gone, you could see three cylinders bare as a babies bottom. Huge dents pushing the side panels out from the head chunks hitting, and gallons and gallons of black oil everywhere, and part of the block was blown out.

The second one was a Cummins or Cat in the truck area at Vo-Tech when I was taking auto mechanics. I dont really know what caused it, but it started screaming. They tried cracking some lines but it kept gaining speed and the instructors made everyone get away from it. Then it came apart. It blew out a section of block about foot and a half square. The crank was broke in half behind the second cylinder and the front section was turned sideways. IIRC the cylinder head was broken too. They cleaned it up and painted it all real pretty and put it on display. It was a huge engine.

They call it a runaway because thats what you should do when it happens. Run away. Of course, out on a boat you cant run, and if it blows, there is a 25% possibilty it could hole your boat. A CO2 fire extinguisher will stop one faster than any other thing you could hope for.

The old 240 Mercedes had emergency stop doors on the intake, mostly to stop them after they took off running backwards. I only know of one that ran away. A guy a knew saw one do it. Then it blew up. I dont remember now what it was anymore, maybe a valve, but something came out of it and went right up through the hood. Made a pretty good hole in it. It would have killed a man if they had been in the wrong place when it let go.
 

zeehag

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Mar 26, 2009
3,198
1976 formosa 41 yankee clipper santa barbara. ca.(not there)
ok, so if it is impossible to stop a runaway diesel by cracking all injectors, please, splain-me, loosey, exactly how mine did stop by our cracking all injectors..remember, i do have a marine diesel mechanic with me.

you can splainme all this about the impossibility of stopping my runaway that we stopped by cracking injectors until all of us are blue in the face--BUT, the FACTS is, we DID stop this runaway by cracking all injectors. lol-i was here with it as it ranaway..i only took a few hours to unlax after that adrenaline dump, but my mechanic took a month...lol--he was immediately next to the engine when it was running away---he is the one who cracked the injectors to stop the runaway of my 4-108.....he knows the dangers of runaway. he is a good mechanic.

our other major fact is engine ddnt overheat nor detonate and was runaway was stopped, by cracking injectors, within 5 min of onset. rpms were rising until 4th injector was cracked..which caused extreme loss of compression which killed runaway as it was increasing--yes mechanic was scared colorless...and i was still pulling on all stop, which did not function, as fuel was not the cause of this engines infernal combustion, but engine lube oil was the fueling substance of this runaway.

so, unless you have something positive, please do not again try to tell me i cannot stop my runaway that i stopped by cracking all injectors. cracking all injectors is EXACTLY what we DID to make it quit. worked just fine and dandy.

why could no one stop the runaway when you were watching--did they not know to kill compression or /and cut the air???
diesel engines are merely air pumps. cut ability to make a combustion--ie--kill compression of air and feeding of whatever fuel it is eating when running away, WILL kill the running away.
air plus fuel with a compressing factor yields combustion.
break the cycle and circuit, no more runaway. is not difficult.
runaway diesel is called that because the engine is literally running away and doesnt stop until there is no more fuel .
how does fuel deliver to cylinders to compress to causing further combustion. end of combustion means no further enginosis, which is manifested by blessed silence. the fuel is brought to the compression chamber by duh the injectors, which spray this fuel in measured doses to the heart of the machine. therefore--crack injectors = lose compression = no running anymore,...no fuel , no air=silence. is easy


one cannot in life do something that does not make sense. we can only do that which is sensible..is like cpr in humans. when do you start...omg what to do what to do --if we all acted like that, granny woulda died long ago. same thing with a diesel or any other kind of engine.
a=air
b=breathing
c=circulation.
all same same same--engines and humans.
i troubleshot human beings for over 30 years. engines are better because when they talk back, one must listen...is dangerous not to listen to engine.

i refuse to lose my home which is my boat by not listening and touching my engine..is inside boat--detonation can cause total loss of my boat, which is unacceptable.
i am in mexico in tropics with a minor engine problem. my engine is accessible from all angles including underside. there is no reason on earth not to attempt to stop a runaway marine engine, as you will probably lose the boat if you do not.
is a bit different from a locomotive which is way too large to stop, or a jey engine , which is impractical to stop by ones self. there is no excuse for destruction of ones boat. this is important stuff for cruisers with diesel engines to understand.
 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
6,748
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
Lastly, the proper and safest way to turn off a runaway diesel, like others have indicated, is to block off the air intake thus starving the engine. Remove the air filter case and press a large and heavy rag against the intake, do not use your hand.
This is a terrible idea! The engine is likely to just ingest the rag, and maybe suck your hand in in the process. People have been seriously hurt trying to do this.


The best, safest way to stop a runaway diesel is the compression release lever!!!

Failing that, a CO2 fire extinguisher discharged into the intake will starve the engine and stop it, too.
 
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