Rules of the road

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Scot

Sorry, not true - State regs vs federal

Sorry, Peggy, but it just ain't so. To avoid putting my foot in my mouth, let me give examples from my area of expertise (I'm a registered geologist with 10+ years experience in environmental and geotechnical consulting). Federal law on groundwater contaminants is minimal. The Fed EPA does promulgate regulations on the matter, but Californa State Water Resources Board sets out provisions which are much (MUCH!) more detailed and stringent. California (and New Jersey and Florida) have spearheaded the development of these sorts of laws, without regard for the absence of supporting Federal law. California has extensive regulations regarding seismic standards. Federal law does not provide for this. In fact, my license is not required by the Federal government. It is required by a more stringent state government. State law cannot contradict Federal law. It can be less stringent (in which case the Fed law controls) or more stringent (in which case the state law controls). Scot P.S. Congrats on the 90% favorable judgement!
 
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress

Re State vs. Fed, Scot

I think you'll find buried somewhere in all Federal laws a clause that says a state may do (whatever)...provided it submits application to (the appropriate federal agency) and the application meets the guidelines spelled out. "No discharge" on navigable waterways and the CA pollution laws you mentioned are good examples of this. The state wants to do it...puts the right answers in all the blanks on the application...the EPA rubber stamps the application "approved" and it's done--all within the guidelines spelled out within the applicable federal law...so it doesn't actually supercede federal law, just makes use of permissions granted by it. The feds have now managed to come up with a way to make states enforce more stringent federal laws than their own too--they just tell the state they're withholding federal funding. The new .08 blood alcohol limit for DUI is a good example of this one. Unless states with higher .10 limits drop theirs to .08, the feds will withhold federal highway funding. Very effective blackmail...
 
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Tom

Hey! I got it correct ! What do I win?

Perhaps a gold plated throne for my "head" (Pun intended...good one huh?!? ;^) ....I said 90% Sailboat ---- even though it pains me to make that judgement(being a sailboater myself).... because the reality is that 90% of the indiscretions and "boorish" on the water behavior is caused by motorboaters in my experience. Knowing full well that the only experience necessary to operate a motorboat is how to write a check........
 
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress

Don't insult the Head Mistress, Tom...

Your toilet may be the next one to clog! :))) All it takes to BUY a sailboat OR a powerboat is the ability to write a check. It takes a bit more than that to operate either one skillfully and responsibly. If you want a true test of sailing skill, put a randomly selected dozen owners of 30' + sailboats in the Hunter 16 in a 15-20k wind. I suspect the capsize rate would be about the same as if you put a randomly selected dozen stinkpotters in 'em. Proportionately, I'd guess that an equal percentage of ragbaggers and stinkpotters are idiots.However, since there are far more stinkpots than sailboats, that puts the raw number of idiot stinkpotters higher. 99% of the transgressions are due to ignorance, not malice. And most of the transgressors are trailerboat owners. Fewer than 10% of the total boating population has ever taken a boating safety course, and most of those are owners of boats that are kept in the water. Even those who haven't taken a course manage to learn a little "by osmosis" from their dockmates--if only from hearing the "you won't believe what some idiot did out there today" stories." Trailerboat owners--unless they're racers--have almost no interaction with other boat owners. Their boats are on trailers at home...they load up the kids, the water toys and the cooler...launch the boat and spend the day getting in everyone else's way...haul it out and take it home again. They don't have a clue that letting their kids ride on the bow--legs dangling--while they bounce across wake at 30 mph is more dangerous than letting the kid play in the middle of the freeway...they're at a complete to loss to understand why everyone on the boats in the anchorage is hurling profanity at 'em as they "tour it," smiling and waving, at just the right speed to create tsunami wakes--they decide it has to be "big boat snobbery." The same holds true for PWCers. There are a few in 40 footers who are just as clueless, but usually not for much longer than it takes one of his dockmates to experience it and tell him the "facts of life." They cause just as many problems for us as they do for you. And in my experience, they don't keep the boat for very long...the never-ending repair bills caused by their stupidity just get to be too much. They declare whatever make/model they bought to be a "piece of junk," sell it at a VERY distressed price ('cuz the boat IS distressed) and find something else to spend their on. But what about the sailboat that insists upon remaining under sail going up a congested channel, tacking back and forth without ANY consideration for the havoc he's creating for the vessels that have to give way to him...not only the stinkpots, but the sailboats who've dropped sail and are motoring? Or the sailboat who insists upon crossing in front you when all it would take to cross behind is falling off a couple of degrees? Or the guy who created one of the best teaching examples I've ever seen? For every idiot stinkpot story you can tell, I can match it with an idiot sailor story. You encounter a zillion powerboats every time you're out...you don't even notice 90% of 'em, because they don't upset you...you notice only the few that do. I encounter a half a zillion sailboats AND powerboats every time I'm out...I only remember the one or two that give me reason to. But isn't the same thing true on the roads? A "sail vs. power" attitude makes no more sense than a "sports car vs truck" attitude. There most certainly are idiots in the world...but there are many more responsible, considerate people--in both sailboats AND powerboats.
 
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SailboatOwners.com Editorial

Final results

Final results for the Quick Quiz ending 1/2/2001: Do you know the Rules of the Road? 68% Pretty well 20% More or less 09% Every nuance 02% No
 
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Stanley J. Rogacevicz

Most Sailors Didn't Start on a 30' Boat

Peggie, I agree with most of your tirade on Power vs Sail jerks, but your statement that I pasted in below has got to be the least correct and most absurd statement of any I have ever seen on any list or site before !!!!! Most sailboaters start with small daysailors and work up. I for example started on a 14' canoe with a sail kit - about as stable as a log. Then 17', 25', 26' 28' and now 32'. Of course as you say anyone with a fat wallet can own a large sailboat - But it is Far More Likely that a non-boater will buy a power boat because it's simple and fast - just like a car. Stan "Christy Leigh" c320 #656 "If you want a true test of sailing skill, put a randomly selected dozen owners of 30' + sailboats in the Hunter 16 in a 15-20k wind. I suspect the capsize rate would be about the same as if you put a randomly selected dozen stinkpotters in 'em."
 
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LaDonna Bubak - CatalinaOwners

I don't see it that way, Stanley

Just about every sailor I know started their sailing career in boats no smaller than 25'. Most started in the 30' range. Maybe it's a regional thing but I know very few folks who even know how to sail very small boats - even dinghies! Perhaps that's your perception cuz that's what you did but I think Peggie's right in her perception that most folks start out with larger boats. LaDonna
 

Rick D

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Jun 14, 2008
7,184
Hunter Legend 40.5 Shoreline Marina Long Beach CA
Peggie's Got A Point...

..after seeing how much damage to end-tied boats has been caused by out of control sailboats, it does make you wonder about the jugement of someone who tacks a 30' or larger sailboat up a narrow busy channel simply because they think it's cool. Kinda like speedskating on a crowded bike path. IMHO, RD
 
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress

It's not a regional thing, LaDonna...

Today's first time boat buyer wants a floating condo, not a boat. There certainly are plenty of sailors who started out as kids dinghy racing...but there are an increasing number of people who start out with 30' + sailboats because a) they cost less to buy than comparable size powerboats, and b) they don't have the (perceived) fuel and maintenance costs of comparable sized powerboats. Some may have sailed as kids, but it's been 30 years. And I don't anyone will argue that it takes far more skill to sail a little boat than a big one, and only some very basic skills to sail in light air. In fact, at least half the sailboat members of my YC consider anything over about 15k "too rough to go out." Half the rest of 'em start reefing at 20k. So when do you want to take me up on my bet, Stanley? :)
 
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Marcus

Power vs. Sail

No, I am not going to continue to beat the Power vs. Sail horse. I just figured the heading would get some attention :) I learned to sail on a 19', and have always preferred small sailboats, and boats in general. I am always amazed at power boats that blaze along either lakes or bays I am on in my kayak, often times with my children, with no regard for the danger they impose, or seemingly anything other than speed. It isn't all of them and it isn't always 'testosterone laden men'. Regardless of 'The Rules' I have found that courtesy is what is lacking, not book knowledge. Maybe we can start there.
 
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Mitchel Stroh

Quick Quiz

How about a quick quiz on what size sailboat you learned to sail on - less than 15', less than 25', less than 35', over 35'.
 
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John J

Where did you start

My experience has been that most GOOD sailors started out in small racing boats.,usualluy class racing. Thenext group started sailing on someone elses boat in the 20+ range, learned enough to know they enjoy it, and bought what they could afford. Then there is the group that falls into the more money than brains categroy. They start at 30 ft. and then ask if someone can teach them how to sail, this group scares the hell out of me. When we lived in Kansas there was a brand new Beneteau 30 at the end of our dock. After a few weeks we noticed the topsides were pretty chewed up, and wondered what happened. One night at home the phone rang and a gentleman asked if I gave sailing lessons. He indicated he had just bought a new Beneteau 30. It didn't take long to put 2+2 together. This guy bought a 30 footer and couldn't get it in and out of the slip.
 
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Stanley J. Rogacevicz

Power Boaters Sailing ?

Peggie, I would take you up on your bet in a heartbeat. LaDonna chimmed in to agree with you, but she thinks Catalina 30's are tender.....so much for that opinion. Maybe because as she says, in her area everyone starts out large and doesn't know what real Tender is. As you say in your own reply to me - that sailing a small sailboat is harder than a large. Well..... if it's that hard, then the power boater with no comprehension of the dynamics of sailing would be lost in comparison to even a rookie large boat sailor. Yes, I am biased because I spent years sailing Tender boats before my c28 and c320, but idea that the average large powerboater and large sailboater have the same sailing ability is still Absurd. Stan "Christy Leigh" c320 #656
 
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Been There

What would you do with that knowledge?

OK, let's say we get some graduate students from the University of South Florida to design and perform an objective, unbiased survey to determine the average competence of the sailboater vs. the motorboater. What, pray tell, would you do with the information thus revealed? Where would it be useful? Is it going to eliminate stereotyping? Will it tell you what to do when you encounter some boat on the water? In other words, who gives a damn? All this business about the "average this" vs. the "average that" seems to me like a veiled form of braggadocio. "Well, I'm not going to boast personally, but I'm an X, and we're stronger, smarter, and our cocks are 8 inches, in average!" I'd rather hear a personal brag. Tell me that YOU circumnavigated Antarctica in an Optimist, making the requisite upgrades by hand before shoving off, setting a new small boats speed record, surviving a cyclone, and saving another boat's crew on the way. That's at least mildly entertaining. All this business about stinkpotters and ragbaggers is for the birds.
 
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LaDonna Bubak - CatalinaOwners

Wow, Stanley, you are truly brilliant

What a great argument for your point: I don't agree with what she said about something else so that makes any other thing she says moot. I could say the same for you. Because all you've sailed are little tender boats, you think a C30 is NOT tender! That's very foolish. Perhaps you should open your mind a little & you just might learn a thing or two - but then again, you probably wouldn't. LaDonna
 
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress

You put your finger on it, Marcus...

When you said "with no regard for the danger they're creating." They have no regard for it because they're clueless, not inconsiderate. I solve potty problems on a number of sites, incuding several that are mostly populated by powerboaters. If I've seen it once, I've seen it a dozen times: "I know I'm supposed to slow down in some situations, but when I do, my wake gets even bigger...so it seems to me that I'm better off staying on plane." The idea of coming all the way down to idle speed in anchorages and other "no wake" areas has never even occured to 'em! And if you think sailboats are the only ones who suffer from their ignorance, think again...they toss other powerboats around just as badly, often putting small open runabouts in real danger. I've had 'em "tour" the YC anchorage making enough wake to knock a lamp off a table in my saloon...they just smile and wave...clueless. Big boats that also have ski boats tied up next to 'em start the skier right in the anchorage...they use the anchored boats as a slalom course... And a lot of what they do endangers themselves and their kids more than it endangers other boats. I called the water cops from my cell phone on a gas dock to stop a 24' cruiser leaving the marina with one adult and about 25 kids that looked to be 10-11 years old on board...they were EVERYwhere--sitting on the gunwhales, the transom, the foredeck...arms and legs dangling over the side. A little speed, bumps from another boat's wake, and a kid is over the side and in the prop. I dunno what the answer is...but it's not a "power vs. sail" issue...it's a "responsible educated boater vs. the clueless" issue that affects all of us.
 
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Tom

Wow, Look what I Hath Wrought !

Wowee !! I didn't really think it would have elicited this kind of response. I was the one who first initially made the statement and I guess I didn't explain myself as I should have. But first I want to say that I like Powerboats. I really do. In fact I can see a day when my old bones won't want to be pulling any more halyards and I'll get one. Also for the record, I got the sailing bug from a few trips on someone elses 26' sailboat about 20 years ago, but the 1st time I got to helm my own boat was a Laser and after a few years of that I bought an older 27' Watkins and I just moved up to a 36' sailboat. I think everybody is all over the place in this discussion (and its kind of amusing) But whether someone learned in a 9' sailing dink or a new 32' sailboat doesn't mean alot in how one handles a boat --- really 10 years ago I could handle a little boat in all sorts of situations.......but that gave me no experience in handling 14,000 pounds of fiberglass & lead in close quarters with the wind howling ---- In other words, what type boat (Sail/motor/dink) you learned in doesn't mean much ------ Its WHAT you WANT to learn that matters..... And in a way it goes back to what Peg said ""it's a "responsible educated boater vs. the clueless" issue. Yes there are clueless sailboaters who don't want to learn and there are clueless motorboaters who don't want to learn. And it goes to being lazy and wanting immediate gratification. But that is my point and at least up here in the NY area, most but not all, of the clueless ones tend to be motorboaters that just had the money and decided to buy a boat. Just go to the NY Boat Show (It starts saturday -- 98% powerboats show) and walk around and you'll know what I mean....if you've been there....'nuf said. Hey, there is nothing wrong with having all sorts of money and just buying what you want, someday I hope to be there :0) But the facts are for a new boating person, that it takes less effort to jump on a motorboat and just go, than it would for a sailboat. And the higher percentage of the ones that cause the most problems tend to be A) Newer Impatient Boat buyers (why buy a sailboat... I might have to learn something? And they go soooo slow) B) The ones that have more money to burn (typically impatient people) So I don't point this at motorboaters per se, but rather at the newer "impatient" boat owners that don't want to take the time to learn.....(which is half the beauty of being on the water) So I will vehemently stand by my original observation when I made my statement.......for a look a one such "bright" powerboater go to the photo Forum and look up "Oops --- Motorboater not looking at charts --" I took the picture
 
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress

Unless there's an objection from the floor...

I now declare this thread to be officially adjourned, sine die! WHACK! (sound effect: gavel)
 
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Rick Webb

Everyone Check This One Out

This is a good place for everyone to spend some time. You may even learn somthing if you are not careful. Maybe Phil could even post the link on the main page? http://www.navrules.com/
 
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Stanley J. Rogacevicz

The Tenderness issue

LaDonna, If you READ the posts concerning large boat sailors on small boats you will see that that Tenderness is the whole issue when Peggie says that sailors and power boaters would capsize a small boat equally, which is why your previous post about a Tender c30 is totaly relevant to the discussion. If you READ my first post you will see that instead of what your last post says about me only sailing on little boats I have gone from boats that were so Tender that moving your leg would change the angle of heel to my current boat that you can dance on either rail under sail without any affect. If you want to get mad and insult me - fine - but please don't misquote me. Stan "Christy Leigh" c320 #656
 
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