I just learned that the rudder on our '87 Hunter 31 need to be replaced. The boat was pulled a couple of weeks ago for routine bottom maintenance. After having the hull sandblasted to get rid of several old coats of bottom paint I discovered about a half inch worth of corrosion on the rudder post where it enters the body of the rudder. The rudder body is bulging on both sides along the rudder post and in the vicinity of the internal flanges and has lost is symetrical shape. Its also delaminating on the front and back and leaking rusty water out the holes I drilled in the bottom. A moisture meter confirmed that lots of water remains inside. Bottom line: Has anyone out there in Hunter 31 land had a similar problem and if so is the replacement a do-it-yourself project for a reasonably competent old guy who has more time than money? Dave Winiker
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Back in Nov of 99'
...when we bought Yesterday's Dream, (1985 31'h) the survey found about 3 square feet of delamination on the port side and about 1 square foot on the Starboard side of the rudder. I understand that this can be a common problem when boats get into their teens and exposed to unavoidable freezing temps while on the hard (same time frame for your boat). $800 to cut out old wet core, inspect frame and rebuild at local a glass shop. Fortunately, the frame and post were fine so I did'nt need a complete rebuild. I invested about $100 to open the rudder and inspect. Once we knew the frame was OK we laid down the remainig money to rebuild. If the integrety of the frame/post is question after the inspection you should probably go the new rudder route. I've heard that its $1500 to get a new rudder with new frame and post. (I understand that you can't really prevent rudders from getting wet inside, The interface between the post and the glass will always leak) BTW to remove and reinstall the rudder is a DIY for 2 people while its hauled. Make sure the boat is located in a yard location where you can dig out a 4' deep X 2' wide X 6' long trench under the rudder to give you room for to drop it out.
...when we bought Yesterday's Dream, (1985 31'h) the survey found about 3 square feet of delamination on the port side and about 1 square foot on the Starboard side of the rudder. I understand that this can be a common problem when boats get into their teens and exposed to unavoidable freezing temps while on the hard (same time frame for your boat). $800 to cut out old wet core, inspect frame and rebuild at local a glass shop. Fortunately, the frame and post were fine so I did'nt need a complete rebuild. I invested about $100 to open the rudder and inspect. Once we knew the frame was OK we laid down the remainig money to rebuild. If the integrety of the frame/post is question after the inspection you should probably go the new rudder route. I've heard that its $1500 to get a new rudder with new frame and post. (I understand that you can't really prevent rudders from getting wet inside, The interface between the post and the glass will always leak) BTW to remove and reinstall the rudder is a DIY for 2 people while its hauled. Make sure the boat is located in a yard location where you can dig out a 4' deep X 2' wide X 6' long trench under the rudder to give you room for to drop it out.
Foss Foam
Dave: Sounds like you need a new rudder. Foss Foam can provide you with one. They are in Fl. and can be found at http://www.newrudders.com/ This is NOT that unusual but it will lighten your pocket book by about $1000. I do not think that the job of replacing them is that big of a deal. The yard can just lift the boat so they can R/R the rudders and drop her back in her cradle or the water.
Dave: Sounds like you need a new rudder. Foss Foam can provide you with one. They are in Fl. and can be found at http://www.newrudders.com/ This is NOT that unusual but it will lighten your pocket book by about $1000. I do not think that the job of replacing them is that big of a deal. The yard can just lift the boat so they can R/R the rudders and drop her back in her cradle or the water.
REASONABLY COMPETENT??@#$#$%
Dave: Lets see, 8 boat bucks for a rebuild or 10 for a brand new rudder. Sounds pretty no brainer to me!!! Let me know when you are going to drop the thing. I'll be around and will be glad to help. That way we'll have TWO "reasonably competent older farts" to do the job!! Tim L. PS: Will deliver your prop in morning.
Dave: Lets see, 8 boat bucks for a rebuild or 10 for a brand new rudder. Sounds pretty no brainer to me!!! Let me know when you are going to drop the thing. I'll be around and will be glad to help. That way we'll have TWO "reasonably competent older farts" to do the job!! Tim L. PS: Will deliver your prop in morning.
How reasonably competent?
Due to the $$$ I personally would not hesitate. And I am NOT reasonably competent. But there is lots of help around. Practical Sailor did a pictorial on this several months(or years?) back. They cut one open and rebuilt it and show all the detail. If/when I do mine I will strengthen the post welding whatever size stainless tube will fit inside the old post. Just found it, July 1998! You can order back issues, see Link.
Due to the $$$ I personally would not hesitate. And I am NOT reasonably competent. But there is lots of help around. Practical Sailor did a pictorial on this several months(or years?) back. They cut one open and rebuilt it and show all the detail. If/when I do mine I will strengthen the post welding whatever size stainless tube will fit inside the old post. Just found it, July 1998! You can order back issues, see Link.
Quadrant
Probably the worst part of the rudder project will be working on the quadrant. The quadrant is made of aluminum and has stainless fastners and most likely it has never had an antisieze compound put on the fastners. Just guessing, but when you go to unbolt the two halves the bolts will be really corroded. The rudder stop has two bolts with one bolt into each quadrant and these will no doubt be frozen, hence they will shear off. To save time in the yard it would be recommended to try and take care of all the fastners first and make shure everything can be dismanteled. When the rudder is ready to be dropped plan to have some way to assist it in comming out of the boat. Say, a few pieces of plywood and a small hand sledge? May have to use the emergency tiller to wiggle the rudder back and forth too. After all these years the rudder post will be pretty well encrusted with stuff that will make removal difficult. Advance planning is helpful to avoid delays in the yard. Maybe talk to the yard people or other people who have experience in this. When reinstalling the rudder it would be good to use something like Lanocote (http://www.forespar.com/catalog/misc/lanocote.htm) on all the stainless fastners. This would also be a good time to lube the cables to the helm and the sheaves.
Probably the worst part of the rudder project will be working on the quadrant. The quadrant is made of aluminum and has stainless fastners and most likely it has never had an antisieze compound put on the fastners. Just guessing, but when you go to unbolt the two halves the bolts will be really corroded. The rudder stop has two bolts with one bolt into each quadrant and these will no doubt be frozen, hence they will shear off. To save time in the yard it would be recommended to try and take care of all the fastners first and make shure everything can be dismanteled. When the rudder is ready to be dropped plan to have some way to assist it in comming out of the boat. Say, a few pieces of plywood and a small hand sledge? May have to use the emergency tiller to wiggle the rudder back and forth too. After all these years the rudder post will be pretty well encrusted with stuff that will make removal difficult. Advance planning is helpful to avoid delays in the yard. Maybe talk to the yard people or other people who have experience in this. When reinstalling the rudder it would be good to use something like Lanocote (http://www.forespar.com/catalog/misc/lanocote.htm) on all the stainless fastners. This would also be a good time to lube the cables to the helm and the sheaves.
Just did it....things you need to know
Just did ours. Before ordering your new rudder from Foss foam, you will need to know total length of shaft from tip top to where it goes into rudder (90 degrees from fore or aft, at side). You will also want to measure how far down the holes for the pully are (to center) and how big the diam. of hole is (ours is 5/8"). Draw a scematic for them. They drilled our holes side to side instead of fore and aft and that caused us some headache. They like to build with shaft long and send it to you for cutting and drilling. If you have the means to do it go that route. It will save you about $150.00 but is a pain for machine shops when the rudder is already built. We also replaced lower bearing. Don't do that just to do it. Major pain in the ass. Only do it if it is sloppy. The bearing is delron and you can't buy from hunter. You have to have machined at machine shop. Our replacement through the whole alignment off and we had to move upper bearing back half an inch which meant 6 more holes in the cockpit floor. Not to big a problem but they are heavy so you will need the boat up quite high, two people to stuff her home and something ready to prop under it while you go topside to bolt back up to pully. Good luck. Doug
Just did ours. Before ordering your new rudder from Foss foam, you will need to know total length of shaft from tip top to where it goes into rudder (90 degrees from fore or aft, at side). You will also want to measure how far down the holes for the pully are (to center) and how big the diam. of hole is (ours is 5/8"). Draw a scematic for them. They drilled our holes side to side instead of fore and aft and that caused us some headache. They like to build with shaft long and send it to you for cutting and drilling. If you have the means to do it go that route. It will save you about $150.00 but is a pain for machine shops when the rudder is already built. We also replaced lower bearing. Don't do that just to do it. Major pain in the ass. Only do it if it is sloppy. The bearing is delron and you can't buy from hunter. You have to have machined at machine shop. Our replacement through the whole alignment off and we had to move upper bearing back half an inch which meant 6 more holes in the cockpit floor. Not to big a problem but they are heavy so you will need the boat up quite high, two people to stuff her home and something ready to prop under it while you go topside to bolt back up to pully. Good luck. Doug
Other Rudder Concern
I've got a similiar rudder on my h34 and several nightmares associated with the original, the Foss rebuild and the third (and hopefully final) Foss replacement. 1) Hunter craftsmen drilled the quadrant and rudder assemble together at some odd angle. Foss had the original rudder and the new one but wouldn't drill the hole for me to match the quadrant. Ended up drilling it myself using the "Hunter Marine Black and Decker hand drill method" (no fun) 2) The original design is not very robust. If you spring for a new rudder I would ask that the stainless frame and post design be improved. I was shocked to see what was actually inside the fiberglass. 3) Foss can get you a bushing to put between the rudder and the hull. My vessel never had one. I spent a few grand so they threw it in for free. 4) Shipping a rudder is expensive and UPS wouldn't touch it due to it's size. 5) Fed Ex damaged my new (third) rudder in transit to me. 6) I had the original rudder rebuilt by Foss using the original stainless frame (used in fresh water). A weld in the frame broke two years later. Nothing another thousand wouldn't take care of. Not many other options since Foss has the mold Lotsa luck, Barry
I've got a similiar rudder on my h34 and several nightmares associated with the original, the Foss rebuild and the third (and hopefully final) Foss replacement. 1) Hunter craftsmen drilled the quadrant and rudder assemble together at some odd angle. Foss had the original rudder and the new one but wouldn't drill the hole for me to match the quadrant. Ended up drilling it myself using the "Hunter Marine Black and Decker hand drill method" (no fun) 2) The original design is not very robust. If you spring for a new rudder I would ask that the stainless frame and post design be improved. I was shocked to see what was actually inside the fiberglass. 3) Foss can get you a bushing to put between the rudder and the hull. My vessel never had one. I spent a few grand so they threw it in for free. 4) Shipping a rudder is expensive and UPS wouldn't touch it due to it's size. 5) Fed Ex damaged my new (third) rudder in transit to me. 6) I had the original rudder rebuilt by Foss using the original stainless frame (used in fresh water). A weld in the frame broke two years later. Nothing another thousand wouldn't take care of. Not many other options since Foss has the mold Lotsa luck, Barry
Gentlemen, Many thanks for your responses. After reading a couple of them I've almost decided to plug the holes I drilled in the bottom of the rudder, put a couple of strips of fiberglass around the perimeter and put her back in the water. Dave
Sounds like you want to be towed!
Dave: I think that you may be flirting with disaster. With the symtoms that you are describing you may be a candidate for LACK-O-STEER. If the corrosion is that bad where you can see it your rudder is probably ready to fall apart. When this happens there will be no way to steer the boat. If you happen to be near a break water or any other dangerous condition it could be disasterous. At a minimum, I would have someone open the rudder up and do an inspection of the area. If it really is OKAY, then maybe you can just patch it up and let 'er go. You would not be the first one to completely loose your rudder!
Dave: I think that you may be flirting with disaster. With the symtoms that you are describing you may be a candidate for LACK-O-STEER. If the corrosion is that bad where you can see it your rudder is probably ready to fall apart. When this happens there will be no way to steer the boat. If you happen to be near a break water or any other dangerous condition it could be disasterous. At a minimum, I would have someone open the rudder up and do an inspection of the area. If it really is OKAY, then maybe you can just patch it up and let 'er go. You would not be the first one to completely loose your rudder!
Dave
I went though 2 rudders on my 1987 31' and when they both broke it was not a pretty site. The orginally rudder was a very poor design and I think the replacement was worse yet. The Third one was made much stronger. Don't get foolish here!!! When that rudder breaks off and it will, You have no way to steer the boat.If you don't replace it. Keep your anchor and radio close at hand! I suggest that you talk to Al Walker at Foss Foam.
I went though 2 rudders on my 1987 31' and when they both broke it was not a pretty site. The orginally rudder was a very poor design and I think the replacement was worse yet. The Third one was made much stronger. Don't get foolish here!!! When that rudder breaks off and it will, You have no way to steer the boat.If you don't replace it. Keep your anchor and radio close at hand! I suggest that you talk to Al Walker at Foss Foam.
Rod, and you were in fresh water!
Rod: You are in fresh water too! Dave is in salt water so they have much worse problems. Was your boat from salt water?
Rod: You are in fresh water too! Dave is in salt water so they have much worse problems. Was your boat from salt water?
Rudder Replacement - Final Answer
Again, thanks to everyone for steering me in the right direction. I AM going to install a new rudder and that's my final answer. What the hell its only money and to quote Tim Leighton, "It's only a couple of boat bucks". (1 boat buck = $1,000.) Dave
Again, thanks to everyone for steering me in the right direction. I AM going to install a new rudder and that's my final answer. What the hell its only money and to quote Tim Leighton, "It's only a couple of boat bucks". (1 boat buck = $1,000.) Dave
Dave - see the Photo forum
I just posted pictures of what is inside your rudder It Aint Pretty! Barry
I just posted pictures of what is inside your rudder It Aint Pretty! Barry
Get Digital Pictures?
Dave, It's good to hear that you're going to order a new rudder as it'll provide a lot of peace of mind. After hearing all the stories here about repeat problems it doesn't give a person that feeling of total confidence. The frame is probably the weak link here. One idea is to ask Foss "overbuild" the frame a bit - it would probably be worth a few extra bucks. Another idea is for quality assurance, ask if Foss would take a digital picture of the frame and e-mail it to you before they glass everything over. Rudders are a very important element and they are one of those items that have been known to break.
Dave, It's good to hear that you're going to order a new rudder as it'll provide a lot of peace of mind. After hearing all the stories here about repeat problems it doesn't give a person that feeling of total confidence. The frame is probably the weak link here. One idea is to ask Foss "overbuild" the frame a bit - it would probably be worth a few extra bucks. Another idea is for quality assurance, ask if Foss would take a digital picture of the frame and e-mail it to you before they glass everything over. Rudders are a very important element and they are one of those items that have been known to break.
Check it over
I had the same corrosion at the stainless steel shaft/rudder blade junction on my '80 H27. Unfortunately, I saw it only after jumping overboard to retreive my rudder after is snapped off and floated down wind! Stainless steel only remains so with exposure to oxygen; put in wet, stagnang, air depleated regions like under a layer of cracked fiberglass it will rust like any other steel (I knew that PhD in Metallurgy would come in handy...). Anyway, whatever you see now will look even worse on the fracture surface, which will eventually see unless you replace the shaft.
I had the same corrosion at the stainless steel shaft/rudder blade junction on my '80 H27. Unfortunately, I saw it only after jumping overboard to retreive my rudder after is snapped off and floated down wind! Stainless steel only remains so with exposure to oxygen; put in wet, stagnang, air depleated regions like under a layer of cracked fiberglass it will rust like any other steel (I knew that PhD in Metallurgy would come in handy...). Anyway, whatever you see now will look even worse on the fracture surface, which will eventually see unless you replace the shaft.
Steve and everone else
My 31 was always in fresh water and purchase new, so I knew what it had been through.
My 31 was always in fresh water and purchase new, so I knew what it had been through.
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