Rudder removal-through the cockpit

[sailaway78]

Boy was I wrong. Origionally my belief was the rudder was simply broken loose from the post, and the plan was to cut open one side of the blade, re attach to the post, and glass that puppy back up. YEAH RIGHT The only part of this plan that went according to the plan was cutting open one side. I found that the blade is attached to the post with 3 1/2" stainless rods. From what I can tell, the rods were only held in place by the foam. Could find no indication they were welded, glued or in any way fastened to the post, just pushed through the holes. They were glassed to the blade, but from what I can tell, the glass was not stuck to the rods, nor was it intended to be. Just too loose fitting for any kind of bond to have ever been intended. So the rods moved back, out of the forward hole in the post, which allowed a lot of movement in the blade. And also allowed the blade to drop down an inch or so. In addition I found the post itself bent slightly, and the rear section of the hull, where the post comes through to be pretty badly cracked. This left no alternative but to remove the rudder post and straighten/replace it. Still not too big of a deal, right. WRONG For three days I tried everything I could come up with to get the quadrant loose. Nothing worked, including a 1/2" impact. Used up two cans of PB blaster. Nothing would get it loose. Finally I went to plan D or E or somewhere in there. Cut the cockpit floor out, and pushed the whole works out through the cockpit. So at least I am making headway. And hopefully the hardest part is over. Of course the temp has been in the mid 90's every day, and the humidity near 100%, but what the hey. It's a boat right. Nothing is supposed to be easy, nor cheap. Sorry, I don't take pics nor write like Mainesail, or I would make a nice project report out of this.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Ouch. Better now than later, I'll bet. When's zeehag comin' back to pitch in?

 

[zeehag]

i go help him after he helps me with mine--so we can get this one to mazatlan then go to finish his off then come back to mazatlan then ,,,,,,,, what can i say-until someone gets tired of this ...LOL......and i still have another boat in sin diego lol..so there are 3 places to wander....he was spozed to wait --but he couldnt---so.........
but ye know--the fun part is breaking the boat between repairs......

 

[RAD]

Phil,
remember that rudder sensor that was such a pain in the a.. to get to
Good luck with the repair

 

[Hermit Scott]

Cut the cockpit floor out, that sounds like what my approach would have been. You know about how long it will take to cut out the floor, and glass it back together, but you could be screwing with that seized quadrant for a week straight and be no further along than you were in the beginning.
It looks like a fun repair though.

 

[thereisabelle]

Wait a minute... that first picture... isn't that from the apollo mission? hold on let me get it out of my system, you think someone might have lapped the quadrant onto the shaft? ok sorry aligators... on a serious note, a machine shop will charge as much to straighten the shaft as make a new one. get some good measurements and call around. i would almost bet with all the fandango goin on down there with the spill, it would be cheaper to have it sent ups from a shop out of that area. i'd be glad to call on some of my old bud's here. good luck jimbob

 

[Ross]

Does that rudder have a bottom bearing? That shaft looks like a piece of schedule 40 pipe. You could measure and check the tables to be certain.

 

[zeehag]

i toldja we did a good job of breaking the boat.......

 

[Dan H]

My initial reaction is that the rudder post looks like a pipe section. That being the case, or not, I think I would have cut the rudder post long before I would have cut the deck. I think I would have cut the quadrant before I would have cut the deck but that's water under the bridge now.

 

[Ross]

That disk ain't a quadrant it is a full circle.
When the Coast Guard had to rebuild a very large Caterpiller engine they cut out the side of the hull at the engine room and took the engine out with a forklift. When the engine was returned the reinstalled it and welded the hull plate back in with fish plates to reinforce it.

 

[woodster]

Boy was I wrong. Origionally my belief was the rudder was simply broken loose from the post, and the plan was to cut open one side of the blade, re attach to the post, and glass that puppy back up. YEAH RIGHT The only part of this plan that went according to the plan was cutting open one side. I found that the blade is attached to the post with 3 1/2" stainless rods. From what I can tell, the rods were only held in place by the foam. Could find no indication they were welded, glued or in any way fastened to the post, just pushed through the holes. They were glassed to the blade, but from what I can tell, the glass was not stuck to the rods, nor was it intended to be. Just too loose fitting for any kind of bond to have ever been intended. So the rods moved back, out of the forward hole in the post, which allowed a lot of movement in the blade. And also allowed the blade to drop down an inch or so. In addition I found the post itself bent slightly, and the rear section of the hull, where the post comes through to be pretty badly cracked. This left no alternative but to remove the rudder post and straighten/replace it. Still not too big of a deal, right. WRONG For three days I tried everything I could come up with to get the quadrant loose. Nothing worked, including a 1/2" impact. Used up two cans of PB blaster. Nothing would get it loose. Finally I went to plan D or E or somewhere in there. Cut the cockpit floor out, and pushed the whole works out through the cockpit. So at least I am making headway. And hopefully the hardest part is over. Of course the temp has been in the mid 90's every day, and the humidity near 100%, but what the hey. It's a boat right. Nothing is supposed to be easy, nor cheap. Sorry, I don't take pics nor write like Mainesail, or I would make a nice project report out of this.

i removed an edson disk from a allmand 35 last september ....the bolts would not come out ...so i cut the heads of the bolts and drilled them out ...and then took the 5/16 inch bolts out of the joining sides on the outside of the disk....and when i reinstalled the two halves i tapped the threads to clean them up and bolted them together on the bench using longer bolts so as to through bolt it back together with nylon lock nuts and also bead blasted the parts with glass beads in my zero blast cabinet and then reinstalled it back in the boat...the reason i did all of this ....is because the rudder packing bearing was in need of referbing along with the bushing on the outside under the back strap that bolted the rudder to the skeg was in need of replacing and i also had to make a new one......

regards

woody

 

[sailaway78]

Answering some questions

For those who were curious. And those giving advice and ideas Greatly appreciated. Here are some answers to making this decision. Cutting the shaft off would not have helped. Would have just been less shaft there. The quadrant still had to come out. There is a top and bottom bearing which are both in very good condition. As for making the post straight. Back in my motorcycle days, I straightened a couple of hundred fork tubes, probably more. A fork tube has to be perfectly true to work right, so I know how to do this. The marina has a really big press, and is home to a bunch of oyster boats and shrimpers, so it is also no big deal to them. I did consider cutting the quadrant apart, but because of the location, that would have been just about as difficult as getting it loose from the shaft. The hardest part of all this was the idea of cutting on the boat, and accepting it, then making the first cut. For me that idea was really hard to accept. Overall, after considering all the possibilities, this was the least painful of all. Glassing the floor back is not a really big deal. Also in the process found that the backing plate under the pedestal is in pretty sad shape. I am going to check on a new post, and if it is readily available will go that way. I also don't like the way the rods are sort a unattached to the post and want to strengthen that although it has lasted for close to 30 years as it is. I think that what happened was when aground I managed to hit the bottom one time with the wheel turned, which put a lot of torque on there that it wasn't designed to with stand. Not just up and down pounding. While apart, will inspect every area in there that would normally be difficult if not impossible to get to, and repair/replace anything that is questionable. Again all remarks are appreciated. But I really expected more negatives concerning cutting out the floor.

 

[woodster]

For those who were curious. And those giving advice and ideas Greatly appreciated. Here are some answers to making this decision. Cutting the shaft off would not have helped. Would have just been less shaft there. The quadrant still had to come out. There is a top and bottom bearing which are both in very good condition. As for making the post straight. Back in my motorcycle days, I straightened a couple of hundred fork tubes, probably more. A fork tube has to be perfectly true to work right, so I know how to do this. The marina has a really big press, and is home to a bunch of oyster boats and shrimpers, so it is also no big deal to them. I did consider cutting the quadrant apart, but because of the location, that would have been just about as difficult as getting it loose from the shaft. The hardest part of all this was the idea of cutting on the boat, and accepting it, then making the first cut. For me that idea was really hard to accept. Overall, after considering all the possibilities, this was the least painful of all. Glassing the floor back is not a really big deal. Also in the process found that the backing plate under the pedestal is in pretty sad shape. I am going to check on a new post, and if it is readily available will go that way. I also don't like the way the rods are sort a unattached to the post and want to strengthen that although it has lasted for close to 30 years as it is. I think that what happened was when aground I managed to hit the bottom one time with the wheel turned, which put a lot of torque on there that it wasn't designed to with stand. Not just up and down pounding. While apart, will inspect every area in there that would normally be difficult if not impossible to get to, and repair/replace anything that is questionable. Again all remarks are appreciated. But I really expected more negatives concerning cutting out the floor.

i see from your post you must be and old Harley mechanic....as back in the day that was common pratice in the shop the police department was the best coustomer we had for that need ....as far as you cutting the deck is concerned i find what you did commendable in your delima and i salute you for your choice of action in doing so ....as Dirty Harry said "A mans gotta do what a mans gotta do".......all the best in your repair .....

regards

woody

 

[sailaway78]

OH Lord help me

Judged as a Harley mechanic. Not hardly. I go back to the very early days of moto cross, when the best you could buy was an AT/CT/DT/RT Yamaha or a TM Suzuki. In those days bent forks were as natural as dirt. As far as cutting the floor out, I think that not only did necessity play a part, but also a lot of frustration. Also in the mix is the fact that I ain't as young as I used to be, nor as limber. I'm 6'4" tall and will be 72 tomorrow, so my physical abilities just aren't that good these days. I see that you have an S2. My previous boat was an S2 , 8.5. Really liked that boat, and it was very good, but like many others I got the two foot itis. But I really enjoyed the S2, and sailed the hell out of it all over the gulf.

 

[woodster]

Judged as a Harley mechanic. Not hardly. I go back to the very early days of moto cross, when the best you could buy was an AT/CT/DT/RT Yamaha or a TM Suzuki. In those days bent forks were as natural as dirt. As far as cutting the floor out, I think that not only did necessity play a part, but also a lot of frustration. Also in the mix is the fact that I ain't as young as I used to be, nor as limber. I'm 6'4" tall and will be 72 tomorrow, so my physical abilities just aren't that good these days. I see that you have an S2. My previous boat was an S2 , 8.5. Really liked that boat, and it was very good, but like many others I got the two foot itis. But I really enjoyed the S2, and sailed the hell out of it all over the gulf.

never was a big motocross man myself ...but did love the flat track days in the 60's and early 70's i was looking around in some drawers the other day and found my old AMA mechanics license still in tack lol ....had to have that to pit at Daytona and all AMA sanctions.....as far as your age you have me by 8 years...but i can tell you that getting around down there is telling me that i am going to have to start work on bigger boats if i keep doing it
my mind say yes but my body hates me everytime i do it ....i am just in the learning stages of sailing now and prolly will not get wet till december or jan of this coming year ....still a lot to do before i am happy with the boat....no screw will be ignored (i hope) in my refit......then i will be able to trust the boat to its fullest so when some thing goes to sounding unusual i wont what if it to death and spoil a good day .....

regards

woody

 

[zeehag]

lol....the only boat i have found easy to get into small corners has been formosa---from 41 thru 56..lol......other than that, most bosts suck coconutz to have to work on....that boat of phillips is particularly small for a bigger boat.....is dang near impossible to get under the cockpit sole.....unless ye are an intra utero trained neonatal rhesus monkey--aint any way yer gonna get into that place---been there done that seen it and got the badge..LOL......
good on ye woody for wanting to get to know every little splinter on your boat---have fun while doing that......i think phillip has seen almost all of his at least 5 times by now--lol----is a challenge to fix something in a tiny lil eeeetsy beeetsy hole....
keep me posted, phillip so i can imagine the angles you have to undergo to get into that place to get that done!! wish i could help you but i got this mayhem to repair for a bit.......

 

[Ross]

Being a foot shorter than Phillip and a little younger( don't turn 72 until October) make it easier to crawl into small spaces. But I never do it alone I always have someone on the outside to help untangle me if I get hung up.

 

[Brian M H23]

I like the way you think
I'd rather do ten jobs I know how to do, than be stuck on one for..who knows how long. New parts can always be bought, but it's hard to get the time back you spend luggin up the hill before you shift gears. While you have it apart, try to think of a way to make it better!

 

[Hermit Scott]

I think how your post was assembled is to avoid welding in a place that can potentially take on some water.
Are people priming the rudder post before glassing over it these days?

 

[thereisabelle]

looking at the third picture, is the assembly sitting on the hull? does it go down the hole behind and to the left? it looks high in the saddle in that shot. so tube to shaft?... when the shaft goes back in the rudder blade, flat bar welded to the shaft for gussets would save drilling and tapping. is the plan to pour a filler inside to strengthen the unit? sounds like you've got plenty of resources right at hand. keep us posted. dirty harry; " a man's gotta know his limitations." jimbob