rudder lost-sailing into a port

Status
Not open for further replies.

Ross

.
Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Or you could end up n irons. I don't have a main

traveler. Bietzpadlin is as basic as a boat can be for a fore and after. Two halyards, two jib sheets and one main sheet. What can I say? She turned forty this year and I will turn 70. I can sail to the weather and I can get back home without the Swedish jib. But I don't think I could tack without a rudder\. Maybe I could wearship and sail off on another tack but I can't see turning through the wind.
 
Jan 27, 2007
383
Irwin 37' center cockpit cleveland ohio
some interesting replies

I suppose some info might be helpful if you want to delve into it more. One would be keel type. Mine is 13' long and I doubt that missing the rudder entirely would be a problem in not being able to do anything or akin to riding a bike without a wheel. A fin keel would most likely be a lot different.
On the PJ, I steered the boat to where I was going, balanced the sails, and left the rudder set for going straight. As we veered a little, according to the GPS, I simple adjusted the main to steer the boat. Geez, we all do it every day! Think about it...what makes you point 1 degree? 2 degree's? Do you turn the wheel and hold it? Most of us do. However, turning the wheel provides diminishing returns and eventually you will have to BALANCE the sails again! Unless you are jviss who doesn't have a boat. Reminds me of the Marina Idiot who professes to not like my boat because he can't stand up in the galley without hitting his head. Never mind he can't cook, or that my boat is basically a condo on the water (which means it sails like stink in light airs - which is when we go out in Roberts 30'er). His boat is a 26 footer and even he can't stand anywhere in it! And he mocks my skills to, yet we go out so much when Robert dove to clean the bottom there was very little to clean. The MI has yet to take his sailboat out.
If you read a lot of the sea stories of real people who sailed the oceans and lost their rudders and/or steering, some made do with wrecking, some sailed on with sail steering, buckets or warps or ugly women tossed over one side or the other for turning or yawing to one side, and some improvised making rudders from tables, boards or whatever!
Perhaps some see it as braggado...I see it as I am glad I am not crewing on your boat!
 
Jan 27, 2007
383
Irwin 37' center cockpit cleveland ohio
Ah yes, the debate team plays their cards

http://www.jsalis.org/Lessons/Boathandling_Tuning/Boathandling_Tuning_02_No_Rudder.html

http://www.cruisingworld.com/capable-cruising/voyaging/ship-without-a-rudder-37601.html

http://www.ukdinghyracing.com/gofaster.htm

http://www.quebecsaintmalo.com/en/news.asp?id=175

http://www.geocities.com/nojibnorudder/

http://upcoming.yahoo.com/event/868900

http://www.uswayfarer.org/Tech_Cruis_Articles/Efficient-Sailing.html
 
M

Maine Sail

Yeah interesting that it's..

Just about what I said in my first post. Even with veteran life long ocean racers and a world renowned yacht designer on board, they could not steer the boat without the ruder on JUST sails! Here are some interesting out takes from the link about the keel boat that lost it's rudder.



From the CW Article:
"Owing to her New Zealand heritage, Serengeti carried an unusual drogue called a Sea Claw from Coppins Sea Anchors (www.paraseaanchor. com), a Kiwi company specializing in emergency gear. It was immediately deployed and for most of the time did a reasonable, though not exceptional, job of keeping the stern to the wind and seas. The main had been dropped immediately after the incident, but someone came up with the idea of hoisting the storm jib to give us some speed and also to counteract the cork-screw effect the drogue had on the stern.

This proved to be a stroke of genius. Not only did this boost our boat speed to a solid 3 knots; the tiny sail also kept us more or less directly on course for Nassau. Every time the bow came into the breeze, the sheeted-home jib would back and send the boat into a controlled jibe. Once on the new board, the sail would fill, and the boat would accelerate until the bow again wandered toward the wind, whereupon the whole process would repeat itself. In this manner, pivoting around its nearly 14-foot keel and slaloming down a heading that wandered through about 30 degrees, Serengeti held an average course straight toward Nassau.

When it was all over, I asked Bill Tripp what he'd learned. His answers were insightful. "I'd never needed a drogue before and now realize how important they can be," he said.

"The drogue we had wouldn't stay submerged when we were going fast enough. That was a real problem, a double-edged sword. Because you need the sails to steer, and the sails make you go fast, we had to put on as little sail as possible and not have the boat go more than 4 knots. Our drogue popped out of the water at 3.5 knots. We needed one that worked at 6 knots. When you have a following sea, speed is better than no speed. The less speed you have, the more the waves are throwing the boat around."

All in all, Tripp described the incident as an eye-opening experience. "In the design process, you can't imitate a boat without a rudder. It isn't possible," he said. "I've done all the Newport-Bermuda Race tests where you have to prove you have emergency steering, and you do that by lashing the wheel and then dragging a spinnaker pole back and forth [off the transom]. And you can do that in flat water; it works fine. Out at sea, it doesn't, particularly if you have to go dead downwind. "



As I said sailing with a rudder lashed is not necessarily good practice for sailing without one and you really can't predict how the boat will handle without one. Even Bill Trip, the guy who designed it, couldn't predict this or get the boat home by sails alone and needed a drogue..
 

CalebD

.
Jun 27, 2006
1,479
Tartan 27' 1967 Nyack, NY
I kind of agree with everyone here who are disagreeing with each other

Every boat is different with respect to trying to sail it without a rudder. Lashing a rudder (tiller or wheel) is a poor substitute for practicing the real thing although perhaps not such a stretch with a skeg mounted rudder on a full keel or cutaway full keel boat. Lord knows I am not going to remove the rudder from my Tartan 27' to practice sailing without it.
I have sailed a smaller sailboat without the rudder when I was a teenager at summer camp and the wooden rudder broke. We learned how by trial and error with a counselor's help. I believe that jibing was much easier than coming about. It wasn't that easy even with a fairly well balanced sail plan on a centerboard boat.
People who sail bigger boats should know it is possible to 'try' to sail without the rudder. Most ocean cruisers have a wind vane steering system which gives them a partial backup in an emergency. Many have a plan 'B' ready in case the worst happens. This is why I like to carry oars or paddles on my small boat and the makings of a sweep oar on my 27'.
It is one thing to get a < 1000# boat to come about or jibe in good conditions. It is quite another to get a multi-ton vessel to behave when conditions are perhaps not optimal and you have no rudder at all. Be prepared, yes Letterman. Be careful in thinking that you have the whole problem solved though.
Have a plan 'A', 'B' and even 'C' if you are really worried about it. That would include warps or drougues, using the roller furler to temporarily kill the jib, using my centerboard to help steer and finally head for shore to beach the boat if the situation was life threatening. Do you have a life raft or dinghy?
Of course there is always the VHF radio which was no shame on the people you (Letterman) have been deriding. I would prefer the humiliation of calling for help rather than beaching and possibly killing my own boat, myself and/or my crew. But you are Letterman the sailor man and you already have a plan (A).
Good discussion point though. Those who haven't thought about this should as people lose rudders frequently enough.
I have a .pdf document written by Evans Starzinger (ocean sailor) from the CSBB about emergency rudder procedures and planning if anyone is interested. Go to the link posted below and look for the 'emergency rudders' article under the 'Seamanship' heading. It will download on your computer as a .pdf file. There are a few (pretty intelligent) people who have already thought about this so there is little need for such name calling and attitude on both sides as demonstrated by some here.
Enjoy, but don't stop second guessing what anyone else says!
 

jviss

.
Feb 5, 2004
7,090
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
Huh?

Letterman, since when don't I have a boat?

Your comments about the rudder being centered are wrong headed. Boats such as we sail require some small amount of weather helm in order to make the keel work properly - make lift towards the weather. So lashing the wheel amidships and steering with sails is not very efficient, you would make much leeway. remove the rudder, and many boats won't go to weather at all, without a drogue or some other device.
 

CalebD

.
Jun 27, 2006
1,479
Tartan 27' 1967 Nyack, NY
JVISS, what don't you get about there is no right or wrong side of this issue?

Letterman makes a point (if a bit overstated) but who is accusing you of 'not owning a boat'?
Did you read my post and explore the link I posted or are you just so vehement that you need to attack poor old mailman Letterman?
You have made your point and I think that I made your point for you as well. Did someone piss on your Cheerios this morning or what?
Please, do your own research and not take anyone else's advice about this subject of loosing a rudder without doing it yourself (research that is). Practice is a difficult subject for many of us with boats that weigh more than several tons - minus a rudder.
If Letterman thinks he has it all figured out than who are you to keep after him like HE is some bozo? Who is really the bozo here?
Darwin awards are awaiting the folks that think they know it all. Do you?
Enjoy the end of sommer.
 

jviss

.
Feb 5, 2004
7,090
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
Failure modes

I've looked into failure modes on my boat.

First, some C36 rudders have fallen off, due to crevice corrosion at the place where the stainless tube exits the fiberglass rudder. If I were on my way to Bermuda, I would seriously consider a new rudder first (mine's an '84).

Second, cable failure. I unwittingly induced this once, and the boat was trimmed up well on a close reach, and just kept on going straight while I put the cable back on the radial drive and tightened the cables. I no longer have the risk of a broken fitting on a conduit, having eliminated the conduit and bracket and installing a pedestal-bottom mounted adjustable idler assembly (the conduit installation on early C36's is outside of Edson design rules (per Edson tech. support), and causes stiff steering, rapid cable wear and more points of failure).

Rudder jam - I guess it could happen, but I don't know how, other than something falling on the gear and jamming.

Solutions:

Emergency helm - excellent on the C36, except a fairly short lever - might have to sit in the cockpit and put your feet on it.

Autopilot linear drive - an upcoming addition to mine, and an excellent emergency helm.

For complete loss of rudder, probably VHF! I would try to sail it, but it's impossible, or at least impractical, to practice this.
 

higgs

.
Aug 24, 2005
3,736
Nassau 34 Olcott, NY
Sailing into harbor

I would hesitate to steer my boat via sails while sailing into a harbor. A slight wind shift, in close quarters, could easily lead to disaster. I have seen this actually happen when a friend of mine lost his boat on the harbor entrance rocks in exactly this situation. It isn't worth it. If I could not hook up some type of emergency steering, I would get a tow into the harbor after sailing up to the entrance.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.