rudder lost-sailing into a port

[letterman]

I know I am right because we practice it all the time at sea, and once a season actually sail into port using sails only.
Here is the deal- - a sailboat lost steering and had to be towed in in 30 knot winds. The wind was out of the West. Cleveland's harbor entrance faces North. I claim he couod have sailed in using his sails. I was told no, can't be done. Damn, we just did it a week ago to prove a point!
My buddy steers like a drunken sailor. He claims this and that as to why he has to turn the wheel so much. Finally he had to relinquish the helm to pee. I took over, set the rudder to straight, then asked people to tell me what to hit. We picked buildings downtown. Using only the sails with a headwind, I was able to steer to hit most anything. Then we sailed into the harbor entrance using sails only. Of course now I hear that is impossible, and all I read is that it is impossible.
So, can you steer going into the wind, without a rudder, using the sails?

 

[jimq26]

Absolutely!!

That is one of requirements in our CYA Bronze V sailing programme up here. The instuctor removes the rudder (much to your surprise) when you are out taking sailing instructions on Lake Ontario, and tells you where he wants you to sail. You end up covering all points of sail, and quickly realize that it can be done.
Always great to have that knowledge in case of an emergency.
Well done letterman!

 

[sailaway78]

Those who say it's impossible

probably can't/don't sail very well. Including yours truly. But it can be done, and if you are good, done pretty easily.

 

[Maine Sail]

While...

It's much easier to do with the rudder set straight than it is to do with no rudder at all. It can be done though. Fin keelers are tough without a rudder but with patience one can sail the boat home if you have an easy harbor to enter. When you get into tidal currents and such it does get harder. You can also use prop walk to aid in turning the boat..

 

[Jim]

Sail Maine you need to rig a bridle correct?

using a lot of rope.

 

[Ross]

I think that a fin keeler with no rudder would be

so out of balance with the center of lateral resistance far forward as to make holding a course a labor intensive job. How much jib and how much main and how the many changes in wind, boat trim, wave action, and current would affect the boat. You can of course sail to any point with the rudder set amidships but with the rudder missing it becomes a very real problem.

 

[Maine Sail]

Not always..

But every boat behaves differently without a rudder. I remember sailing both an O'day Javelin and a keel Rhodes 19 without rudders when I was a kid learning to sail and both boat behaved very very differently. On bigger boats a towing warps can help you steer and they will work well but it requires that you have a lot of extra line hanging around, some wind, and some spare winches cause when you get seventy feet out there it is very tough to haul doing 5-6 knots. Even moving a dinghy with the motor down from side to side can also help to steer a boat with no rudder. There are many techniques but not all work equally as well on all boats.

As I said every boat will behave differently without a rudder and short of removing the rudder on your boat you have no way to know how she'll sail without it. It's best to try all avenues, if it happens, and know a few before hand and how you may rig them, until you find the right balance. We could steer the Javelin with the paddle, or by stuffing a square boat cushion into the water, but the Rhodes barely even responded to the paddle and the boat cushion became to much to handle for a 11 year old...

 

[jviss]

Give me a break, please!

Letterman, what is the point of this post? Do you want everyon eto say, wow, what a super-accomplished sailor you are! And, what idiots those folks on the boat that lost the rudder, ware, what poor sailors they are! If only they could be as good as Letterman!

There is a huge difference between losing the rudder in a 30 kt. blow and just deciding to lash the rudder amidships and steer with the sails.

But I'd like to hear more. What kind of boat lost the rudder? Was there any current at the time? What point of sail were they on when the rudder dropped off?

On hhat kind of boat did you demonstrate your superior skills? What conditions?

 

[Napa Ed]

ditto

"

 

[John]

the opposite

I don't see why Letterman is getting these snide remarks. Frankly, I found his post interesting and helpful. If you didn't like it, then just don't bother with it.

 

[letterman]

Ok already Answers!!!!!!!!

$1000 bet from the loudmouth know-it-all powerboater at the marina. Normally he is right, but this time I think and know he is wrong. Wouldn't you like to prove it to a lout like this? Come on!!!!!!!!!!
I wasn't trying to brag. I just think that, after reading what the Brit's must go through for a license, and what some sailing schools teach here, and the fact I am the Captain usually with guests on board, that sailing rudderless (it's still on the boat in this case, just not working) is an important skill to learn just as we practice the MOB drill.
All we know is the boat was a 33'er and they lost steering and were about a mile or so from the mouth of the Cuyahoga (where ore boats come and go daily- so it's wide.)
The current in Lake Erie is minimal...running West to East. LE really is just a big river dumping over the falls.
They were on a close reach.
My boats are a 12' Penguin, 20' Mouette, and 37' Irwin. On the Irwin, the winds were 20-22 MPH in 4' seas. But all I wanted to do was press a point as my buddy's steering was driving me and my other know-it-all (he really does too) sailor friend NUTS. The peeing guy steers like a drunken sailor all the time, in spite of our advice and corrections. However, he did pay the $1500 for the dock for the year so we acquiesce his desire to steer.
And lastly, I sailed from Cape Fear to very near Brunswick GA on a 43' Palmer Johnson steering with sails only as I hate tiller steering, and the autopilot decided to nap along with the guy that knew how to use it but never told me how. When the napper awoke, we found our position to be right where I planned, and believe me, it was NOT a big deal because I think every sailor should know how to do it.
Oh yeah, there was the time going to the islands in 8'ers...but that was only 60 miles so doesn't count.
Don't you guys practice emergency drills? How'd you put it...Give me a Break!

 

[jviss]

Then perhaps, John, ...

... you are not as perceptive as we who find it less interesting. You see, there is a good bit of braggadocio in that initial post, at the expense of our hapless colleagues in who lost their rudder. I recommend you re-read the initial post. I don't appreciate those who mock others, or extol their own expertise with rather dubious comparisons or claims.

According to Letterman, we should all be able to sail our boats around without a rudder, under any of the circumstances alluded to, just as he can. Rubbish!

What if you were piloting, let's say, a 30' fin keel boat in a 30 kt. blow, close hauled at 6 kts. boat speed when the rudder suddenly disappeared? Methinks you'd round right up, head to wind: now what? Climb up on the foredeck and back the jib while you, or someone else on board figured out how to trim to steer without a rudder? And how would you practice this?

Those who make light of it, and claim anyone worth his salt can and would do this without assistance are full of it.

 

[Ctskip]

I was out yesterday and lost my steering

only I have a wheel. The pulley ans cable decided it was time to seperate. I still had my rudder. I knew immediately something was wrong because the wheel felt to light. I quickly open the lazzerette and removed all lines and fenders and proceeded to go "below" into the bowels of the vessel and found the problem. In the mean time the wife was topsides, there absolutely nothing she could of done. The rudder was still on the vessel, in who knows what position. I slipped the cable on the pulley and went topsides and straightened the vessel out. It had rounded up into the wind. I fell off wind and proceeded to the marina. Where I had a stiff drink and put her to bed. Tomorrow I will tighten the cables and check to find out why the cable fell off the pulley.

I can only imagine what it would of been like to steer with the sails and having a rudder do what it wants, when it wants to do it. Now that would be pretty neat to accomplish that feat.
Keep it up,
Ctskip

 

[jimq26]

letterman - I think we found somebody who can't steer under sails alone.

(nm)

 

[jviss]

Right, Jim...

...very intelligent note.

 

[Ross]

I was thinking about this thread last night before I

fell asleep. I think that I could hold a course with just triming the sails but damned if I can figure how to tack while close hauled without a rudder.

 

[Timo42]

You could jibe the boat

without using the rudder, lord knows I've done it enough by accident ;D Tim

 

[Maine Sail]

"Practicing"

with the rudder still intact, but lashed, is NOT a substitute for an actual lost rudder or one that is flapping loosely on it's own in what ever direction is feels like.

Take the rudder completely off the boat and then let us know how well you did? I have done this and it's no where near what it's like steering by sails with the rudder lashed.

No rudder vs. a lashed rudder is like the difference between Rosie O'Donnell and Lance Armstrong in a bike race... No comparison.

Why practice bike racing by cooking corn bread? You don't.. Why practice sailing with lost rudder with a rudder? It does very little for you if this ever happens in real life.

 

[Ross]

Can you ride a bike "no-hands"? Then take the

handle bars off and show me. ;D That is the difference between sailing with a lashed rudder and sailing with no rudder.

 

[Alan]

Tacking from close hauled (no rudder)

If your sail plan is balanced and you have no rudder sailing close hauled you can tack the boat by easing the jibe early and moving the traveler to weather to force the bow over to the other tack. Then re-trim sails on the other tack slowly and allow the boat to build speed and come back to course.