rudder lock down on a S?

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walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,546
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
I was afraid someone would ask that..

If the rudder works fine with whatever arrangement you already have, I wouldn’t change anything. I think people have been happy with the stock pull arrangement.

But.. I think what I have works very well but has a potential reliability risk. Pulling from where I have the pulley results in the pull being on the order of 50% more effective for holding the rudder down than the stock location and then I have a 2:1 leverage on top of that.

If you look at the attached diagram, the most effective way to pull the rudder is if the pull vector is lined up with the rotation direction. The way I have it, the pull vector is only about 15 or so degrees off from the direction of the rotation but for the "stock" hole location (the unused hole to the lower right in the picture), the pull vector is not at all lined up with the rotation direction - I measured it to be about 65 degrees off. There is also a moment arm involved and where I have the pulley, it’s a shorter moment arm (5 inches - worse) and the stock location has a longer moment arm (7.5 inches - better). Very nerdy of me to calculate this.. but a figure of merit of the pull effectiveness is Cos (angle)* moment arm.

Ill give the details if someone wants, but this ratio ends up being 1.51 i.e., where I pull from is 50% more effective for pulling the rudder down. As I said, add in the 2:1 leverage on top of this and what I have does a really good job of holding down the rudder.

The risk is that you are drilling a hole sort of close to where these aftermarket rudders had a breakage problem in the past. In the US, a lot of people buy an aftermarket rudder from Idasailer (now the company is called rudder craft) and at one time, these rudders would break just above where I have the new hole drilled. This company came out with a newer version which corrected the breakage problem and this is what I have. This rudder is now going on its fifth season exactly like in the picture with no problem. I cant say I wont have a problem from drilling this hole... but I have grounded this rudder at least a few times, left it down when I pulled the boat up the ramp a few times, had it stuck on the ground at that shallow mooring (including some side force) and I’ve done a lot of sailing with this boat. But when I sail, I have a fairly light touch on the tiller and the rudder is always held tightly down. I havent changed anything on this setup for many years.

 

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Oct 21, 2010
350
Macgregor 26S, "Myuna" Brisbane, Australia
I was afraid someone would ask that..

If the rudder works fine with whatever arrangement you already have, I wouldn’t change anything. I think people have been happy with the stock pull arrangement. .....
Thanks very much for that full explanation Walt - my 16 y.o. son who is a lot better equiped in enginering mathamatics than what I am has assisted me in decoding:cry:. I think you have convinced me to stay with the stock arrangement Walt, although I am still very impressed with your double purchase top and bottom:).
 

walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,546
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
LOL.. funny about the kid.. my "IT" department at home are aged 14 and 17. They set the password on the Wi-Fi router - good thing they don’t know the control they have over me - all I know is how to reset it.

I think this is definitely one of those cases where someone has a solution and you are wondering what the heck is the problem the solution fixes...

But I just wanted to point out one more thing. I can feel even small changes in the rudder angle on the tiller pressure and as I mentioned, am a little anal about this.. but let’s say you are using a jam cleat on the tiller for the hold down. A jam cleat has to back off a little to set the rope. This loosens the downhaul a little bit.

With the pulley arrangement and the 2:1 leverage, that little bit of loosening of the line has its impact cut in half. Add on top of this the better vector arrangement and the benefit is higher than 2:1.

Assuming non stretch line, I think you get on the order of 3 times the angle rotation of the rudder for a change in the downhaul rope length for the stock hole location over the pulley implementation.. I.e., a little slop in the downhaul line results in about 1/3 the rudder angle change for the pulley arrangement.

But.. if you don’t have a problem, you definitely don’t need to fix it.. and the pulley has the extra reliability risk but after all the time I have on this rudder now, I’m not sure how significant it is.
 

Sumner

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Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
.. but let’s say you are using a jam cleat on the tiller for the hold down. A jam cleat has to back off a little to set the rope. This loosens the downhaul a little bit. ...
We have the release cleat....



http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor/rigging-1.html

...and I have to question how much it backs off. I really don't notice any, maybe an 1/8 of an inch if that much. Once there it is rock solid. I would think the bungee in the system would give more than that and then you still are attached to a jam cleat after that in your picture.

One thing I like about the release is that when you do hit something, and we have :cry:, it releases the whole way and the rudder is free to raise however far it has to in order to clear the obstacle. Since you have the bungee pulled very tight to keep the rudder full down how far can the rudder go up if it hits something?

Using the stock hole and line I find that I have to pull hard to get it headed down into the water when it is up parallel to the surface, but once it starts down I don't have any problem pulling it tight against the bracket that it pivots on.

Like you said though if you are happy with what you have then why change.

Sum

Our Endeavour 37

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Our MacGregor S Pages

Mac-Venture Links
 

walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,546
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
Since you have the bungee pulled very tight to keep the rudder full down how far can the rudder go up if it hits something?
Simple answer - far enough. I worried about that a little a long time ago and never got around to changing anything but Ive tortured that bungie and it hasnt been any problem. I still have a jam cleat on the tiller and have thought about changing it to a releasing type - may still do this but its also another case of "Im not sure what the problem is I would be trying to solve". The bungie takes up any back off in the jam cleat (ie, at the rudder, I get no back off at all) and with the 2:1 at the rudder futher reducing any effect of backoff, I think its very close to having the rudder pinned with the nylon dowel.

edit.. interesting looking at the picture - but if a rudder grounding pulled the bungie back far enough, I think it would also pull the rope out of the jam cleat and "release". I could even move the jam cleat more forward to make this happen sooner (but wont worry about it now - high of like 12F today).



 

Sumner

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Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
.... interesting looking at the picture - but if a rudder grounding pulled the bungie back far enough, I think it would also pull the rope out of the jam cleat and "release". I could even move the jam cleat more forward to make this happen sooner (but wont worry about it now - high of like 12F today).



I think you are right that moving the cleat might work as a release also. Try it, and let us know. It might be enough to provide a 'full' release.

We got a couple inches of snow and cold here also, but the sun is out and the solar heat is kicking in :).

Sum

Our Endeavour 37

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Our MacGregor S Pages

Mac-Venture Links
 

walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,546
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
Ok.. now its a "releasing / bungee / jam cleat" setup

Normal down position




Just before release (I hope thats ice and not the varnish vinish:eek:)



Final config (moved jam cleat on top)


You can see where the jam cleat was (need to repair these holes now)



Snow... the boat usually gets shoveled before the driveway

 

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Oct 21, 2010
350
Macgregor 26S, "Myuna" Brisbane, Australia
:)
I don't like going out in the sun after 11.00 in the morning to work on my boat - all I can say Walt is you guys are dead keen to go out in that stuff to work on the boat:).

You have now got me thinking. My preventer bolt is missing at the bottom of the rudder cheeks - bit slack in getting it fixed as I know it is not doing the best for the rudder cheeks. Because of that I have noticed that the rudder has been hitting on the bottom of the rudder post and gouging it a bit. On the other hand I have never had a weather helm problem and have the old original stock rudder blade. I am beggining to wonder if I should replace the bolt or build some arrangement that will both keep the cheeks together (as in stop them spreading) and at the same time allow the rudder to kick a little further forward - almost like a bent bolt if you will but with the strength to hold the cheeks in - just a thought???
 
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