Rudder Help Please!!!!!

[madmaggiemae]

I just bought a Grampian Classic 31 a few months ago..discovered a leak inside the boat around the bronze rudder tube...I ground down the old resin/glass around it and reglassed it. Apparently, some epoxy made its way down to a place its not supposed to be, because now my rudder is VERY stuck in place!! I could see epoxy around the lower "bearing"..unfortunately after it had cured. Kind of feel like an idiot right now, but I need to ask for help.
I've done EVERYTHING possible to try to force it loose (without breaking the rudder), I have taken off the shoe and the rudder won't drop, have even begun resorting to destructive means (see picture where a cut off a piece behind rudder to gain more access)...it's really stuck. What I need to know is what is going on in there...what the rudder tube/bearing/post assembly might look like under there before I can know how to proceed (ie whether to cut a hole in my boat from the inside or the outside.) It's an old boat..1965..if that helps. Can't post a picture but it's a Modified full keel..Tiller...Rudder is hung under the boat with cutaway for prop.
On the underside, the rudderpost is inside of a bronze "bearing" (maybe not a real bearing) or bronze tube that has the same diameter as the tube on the inside...but I KNOW that this piece is supposed to turn WITH the rudder and that the tube on the inside of the boat ISN"T supposed to turn (the rudder post turns inside of it). When I ground down to the tube from the inside before, I didn't see the top of any bearing or junction. Where is the junction and what does it look like??? (I could use a pair of xray goggles right now.) I have tried so much with so much force that i know there is more than just the thin bond around the tube holding this in place. Are there set screws? Could this junction be resting inside the hull?
I am afraid if I grind back down from the inside, I will have to go so far that the tube won't be held by the hull anymore and I will never be able to align the rudder right again. I am hoping to find info from other GC31 owners who have had their rudder off and can tell me what it looks like in there, what kind of bearing or whatever this might be, and how it's held onto the rudderpost. I can't find any information on this boat anywhere.
Thanks for any help.

 

[Ed A]

long shot, maybe you could get some heat on the shaft to crack loose where it is attached to the shaft. or Cool it for that mater, just a bit of expansion or contraction may break it loose.

Check with epoxy manufacturers like west epoxy. they mayhave ideas.

rule one is never let epoxy go where you dont want it to be forever.
I hope you dont have to cut itall out.

 

[Bill Roosa]

Most rudder stocks are just a tube and shaft type arrangement with some means to keep the rudder from moving both up (when in the water) and down (when out). I’m thinking that the bronze "bearing" at the bottom keeps in from falling down. There should be a shoulder at the top of the rudder proper that keeps it from sliding up. There may also be a gland at the top of the rudder stock if the top is at or below water level.
With all that said it sounds like you have glued the tube to the shaft and don't have a way of getting to the glued part. Not much you can do with the rudder shaft still in the tube. An epoxy dissolver might work if the tube is not fiberglass. The only other thing I can think of is dropping the rudder and Rub Goldberging a way to sand down the epoxy that stays stuck in the tube. With a little luck it will stick to the shaft and that would just require sand paper to remove.

 

[goblin]

Can't help with the rudder problem but here's a contact: http://www.grampianowners.com/GC31/gc31.html

 

[Maine Sail]

I don't really have any good suggestions without knowing what it actually looks like. If you "filled" it with epoxy then this may be a big problem but if it is just a little you may be able to shear it from the rudder stock and then drop the rudder and clean out the tube.. With one person on the rudder blade and one at the wheel both trying to move the rudder in the same direction it might shear.. Make sure the wheel brake is not on too...

 

[tedsbeds]

fix rudder

If the rudder shaft is round I would let a whole lot of WD40 or liquid wrench drip down the shaft to where the epoxy ran. I would then cllamp a long prybar or 2x4 to the rudder and try working it back and forth. Good luck

 

[FourPoints]

If you look down from the top, can you see all the way down through the tube to the bottom?

If so maybe you can find a camping wire saw (http://www.survival-gear.com/wire-camping-saw.htm) and feed the saw wire through the gap and work it back and forth (might require a 2nd person on the other end) and cut through the epoxy.

i

 

[madmaggiemae]

Thanks for all the ideas. I think heat is definitely the next step, ..just waiting for a gale to pass. I will try a longer bar on my wrench too. I can't see down from the top because the rudder won't drop, and i can't get the washer off the top of the post.
I am trying to avoid having to grind out all of the fiberglassing i just redid on the tube only to find that i could've accessed it from the bottom (this is IF the above doesn't work)..so it would still be nice to find out what i'm working with, but.....that is not proving to be very easy.
Thanks again so much for your help

 

[RON20406]

Madmaggiemay, If it were my boat, I would not try to free the rudder by turning it since if it is overtorqued, you may do some internal damage to your rudder frame and/or delaminate the frame from the rudder. A better and safer approach is to detach your rudder from the quadrant so that it is freestanding, and use "drastic engineering." That is get a heavy hand mallet and pound from the top to break the epoxy bond. If you didn't really saturate the tube, it should break free. Even if there is quite a bit of epoxy, it is of a very thin mil and should release. Good luck and good sailing, Ron

 

[woodster]

Madmaggiemay, If it were my boat, I would not try to free the rudder by turning it since if it is overtorqued, you may do some internal damage to your rudder frame and/or delaminate the frame from the rudder. A better and safer approach is to detach your rudder from the quadrant so that it is freestanding, and use "drastic engineering." That is get a heavy hand mallet and pound from the top to break the epoxy bond. If you didn't really saturate the tube, it should break free. Even if there is quite a bit of epoxy, it is of a very thin mil and should release. Good luck and good sailing, Ron

if you have a solid ss shaft for a rudder post get an oak block of wood to put between the post and the big hammer so as not to mushroom the end of the shaft ....if you use heat have a buddy along with you as a fire watch with a fire extengusher in hand ...also sniff out the flammable fumes as well ....not being a no it all here just dont want to read about some accident in doing this work .....

regards

woody

 

[RON20406]

rudder stuck

if you have a solid ss shaft for a rudder post get an oak block of wood to put between the post and the big hammer so as not to mushroom the end of the shaft ....if you use heat have a buddy along with you as a fire watch with a fire extengusher in hand ...also sniff out the flammable fumes as well ....not being a no it all here just dont want to read about some accident in doing this work .....

regards

woody

Woodster is correct about using a block of wood if the rudder doesn't break free. I'll bet, though, a couple good taps and the bond will break. I would avoid, however, using heat near fiberglass in an enclosed area. Too many disasterous potentials. Stick to the shock therapy. And, look at all the fun you'll have. Good luck and good sailing, Ron

 

[sandpiper10471]

I doubt if adding heat will work. Too much thermal mass to get the shaft to a temperature which would break down the epoxy. However, because the repair was at the lower bearing,
I am assuming where the rudder post exits the hull, it may be possible to get just enough heat in there. The epoxy won't just let go, though. It will lose some of its structure and just get gooey. It is important to get that washer off the top of the post so it won't need to be done in the future. Then, as suggested, you may be able to shock the bond free.