I AM NEW TO SAILING BUT 30 YEARS IN BOATING BUT ONLY TAKEN THIS BOAT OUT A FEW TIMES SO FAR IN 2 SEASONS. i HAVE LITTLE CONFIDENCE IN THE MOTOR WHICH HAS BEEN BOGGING DOWN WHEN i TRY TO THROTTLE UP. mAYBE OIL TOO RICH IN THE GAS??? bUT, THE HEAD OF THE RUDDER HAS THE WOODEN TILLER AFFIXED BY A HEAVY GAGE ALUMINUM "H" TYPE OF A BRACKET WITH ABOUT A 3/8'S BOLT AND A WING NUT THAT SECURES IT TO THE HOLE IN THE HEAD. tHE HOLE HAS WORN OUT AND IS A GOOD BIT LARGER CREATING A VERY SLOPPY FASTENING FOR THE TILLER PLUS THE PART OF THE BRACKET THAT MOVES AROUND THE RUDDER HEAD AS U RAISE OR LOWER THE TILLER-UP OR DOWN, IS ALSO SLOPPY WITH ABOUT 1/8 " GAP ON EITHER SIDE-MEANING THE SPACE BETWEEN THE SIDE OF THE RUDDER HEAD AND THE INSIDE OF THE "H" BRACKET. wHAT MIGHT BE THE BEST IDEAS TO CORRECT BOTH PROBLEMS INEXPENSIVELY. i DON'T THINK WASHERS WILL PROVIDE ENOUGH SURFACE FOR THE "H" BRACKET'S SLACK BUT MAYBE SOME KIND OF PLATING ON BOTH SIDES OR PERHAPS BUILD UP THE BRACKET ITSELF? fOR THE HOLE SOME SAID FILL IT AND RE-DRILL BUT WHAT IS THE HARDEST MATERIAL i COULD USE? oTHERS SUGGESTED SOME KIND OF A BEARING OR A BUSHING? aNY HELP IS APPRECIATED!!!! FEEL FREE TO EMAIL ME AT ICCSINC1@VERIZON.NET[/email] AND THANKS!! RICK
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Rick,
Can you post some pictures of this? The rudder head has two pintles that fit into two gudgeons on the stern. Are these worn? The rudder head being aluminum, has a hole for the bolt where your tiller connects. Is the hole worn oblong? Rudy has a lot of the O'Day parts if you need them. http://www.drmarine.com/ Perhaps the hole in the rudder head can be filled in by a marine welder and a new hole drilled, or a metal bushing can be added to it somehow. The 2 stroke gasoline sail drive engines have always had issues. Some guys like them when they run right. Other guys have removed them, plugged the hole and installed a bracket for an outboard. I've never been fond of the idea of having a gasoline tank in the bilge of a sailboat. One of our club members has an O'Day 27 with and OMC Johnson sail drive and he installed a bracket on the transom for a Johnson long shaft 9.9 2 stroke outboard engine.
Joe
Can you post some pictures of this? The rudder head has two pintles that fit into two gudgeons on the stern. Are these worn? The rudder head being aluminum, has a hole for the bolt where your tiller connects. Is the hole worn oblong? Rudy has a lot of the O'Day parts if you need them. http://www.drmarine.com/ Perhaps the hole in the rudder head can be filled in by a marine welder and a new hole drilled, or a metal bushing can be added to it somehow. The 2 stroke gasoline sail drive engines have always had issues. Some guys like them when they run right. Other guys have removed them, plugged the hole and installed a bracket for an outboard. I've never been fond of the idea of having a gasoline tank in the bilge of a sailboat. One of our club members has an O'Day 27 with and OMC Johnson sail drive and he installed a bracket on the transom for a Johnson long shaft 9.9 2 stroke outboard engine.
Joe
Joe, the O'Day 25 has a fiberglass outboard rudder. To fill it I'd use thickened Epoxy resin (I use WEST System, but System 3 or MAAS is good too). Also, the VIRE 7 is a straight inboard, not a saildrive. A good engine in it's day......still good if in good condition and tune.
Rick, As I say above, thickened epoxy poured into the hole in the rudder (tape over the back side) will be strong enough if you use a high-density filler, WEST has a graphite filler that will also serve to create a good bearing surface for the pivot bolt and tiller straps (that aluminum "H" piece that connects tiller to rudder. I would suspect (hard to tell without seeing your rudder) that the slop has caused wear on the rudder surface and that is adding to the looseness. You may be able to build-up the rudder thickness with the filler. perhaps laminate a layer of glass tape to each side before redrilling the bolt hole.
Rick, As I say above, thickened epoxy poured into the hole in the rudder (tape over the back side) will be strong enough if you use a high-density filler, WEST has a graphite filler that will also serve to create a good bearing surface for the pivot bolt and tiller straps (that aluminum "H" piece that connects tiller to rudder. I would suspect (hard to tell without seeing your rudder) that the slop has caused wear on the rudder surface and that is adding to the looseness. You may be able to build-up the rudder thickness with the filler. perhaps laminate a layer of glass tape to each side before redrilling the bolt hole.
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thanks for the tips! The rudder is FG and is worn as u said from the strap bracket. A bush might be a good isea so I'll see what Napa might have and other places otherwise I will check out the epoxy fillers and try to build up the head. How about building up the strap on the insides with some kind of nylon sheeting? I don't know where or what is out there for that but nylon wears well. ?? The motor seems ok but it has died on me when I try to accelerate and have to quickly return to just above idle to stay moving. I think I put too much oil in the gas last year but it was not smokey-I don't know. I wish I knew someone in the Middle River area of Baltimore who is familiar with this motor and could check it out for me without giving up my 1st born. Vire 7 has a web site but it may have been abandoned as it has not been updated since 9/08. It has helped me on this engine but I just don't trust it and it is very hard to reach with a messed up back now. Maybe I ought to run it all around, close to my marina in case of a breakdown, to iron out its problems and test its capabilities???
The O'Day fiberglass rudder blades have had some serious issues for years. I went through two of them on my boat and finally had a solid blade built by Rudy years ago and have had no problems since. With that said, looking at the picture of your rudder I can see that it is completely made of fiberglass with no aluminum rudder head. I don't see why you can't do some fiberglass reconstruction work on it. Pick up Don Casey's book, "Sailboat Hull & Deck Repair" at your local library and get familiar with the ins and outs of working with fiberglass. Use a good epoxy for the repair. I see an outboard on this boat. Is this what you have? I was under the impression that you had a sail drive inboard.
My O'Day 222 came with a tip up rudder blade and I modified the rudder by lowering the pintles a little and adding an O'Day 25 tiller to the rudder head. I even have O'Day 25 chain plates on my boat. I don't know what to tell you about your sail drive engine. Years ago we had a family who joined our club after they bought a full keel O'Day 25 with a sail drive inboard. The guy loved it, but he was having problems with his engine over heating. I heard that they removed the engine and installed a bracket for an outboard after they left our club to go down the river to a slip in a marina. I really believe that a diesel inboard or an outboard is the way to go on a boat like yours. My friend who owns the O'Day 27, also owns an O'Day 25 keel/centerboard. He just put the 25 in the water about a week ago. He bought the 27 OD at a good price and figured on fixing it up. However, his wife doesn't like it and the boat had too many issues including the sail drive which starts OK but is sucking water into the carburetor for some reason. He's had it up for sale since last year and is asking $2500. Here's a few pics of my rudder. I have a pendant line that holds the blade down, and a pendant line that can hold the blade in the up position. The latter is one that I added myself.
Joe
My O'Day 222 came with a tip up rudder blade and I modified the rudder by lowering the pintles a little and adding an O'Day 25 tiller to the rudder head. I even have O'Day 25 chain plates on my boat. I don't know what to tell you about your sail drive engine. Years ago we had a family who joined our club after they bought a full keel O'Day 25 with a sail drive inboard. The guy loved it, but he was having problems with his engine over heating. I heard that they removed the engine and installed a bracket for an outboard after they left our club to go down the river to a slip in a marina. I really believe that a diesel inboard or an outboard is the way to go on a boat like yours. My friend who owns the O'Day 27, also owns an O'Day 25 keel/centerboard. He just put the 25 in the water about a week ago. He bought the 27 OD at a good price and figured on fixing it up. However, his wife doesn't like it and the boat had too many issues including the sail drive which starts OK but is sucking water into the carburetor for some reason. He's had it up for sale since last year and is asking $2500. Here's a few pics of my rudder. I have a pendant line that holds the blade down, and a pendant line that can hold the blade in the up position. The latter is one that I added myself.
Joe
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I think that I got a little confused by the pictures that you just showed and what he was trying to explain to me. I didn't know that they put a straight inboard 2 stroke gas engine in the 25's. I'd still be kind of leery having an inboard gasoline engine in a sailboat. Years ago a powerboat that was docked along side of my boat on the Taunton River in Somerset, blew up. Luckily, I got my boat out of there just in time after the explosion. I had just bought two new Thurston sails for it. The force of the explosion blew the guy right out of the cockpit and into the water. The shrapnel from it hit me in back of my neck. Both myself and the powerboat owner were lucky that day. If fact, the boat was made of aluminum and was able to be saved after the fire got put out.
Joe
Joe
vire7
Rick,
I also have a Oday 25 with a Vire 7. The engine when its tuned and in good shape is very reliable. This web site has all then info you need on the engine. http://gofree.indigo.ie/~vire7/ which may be the site you where referring to? Use the spark plug that site recommends that really helped mine. Also I noticed you said something about adding to much oil last year. I would try sucking all that old gas out of the tank and adding fresh gas. Also if you have the original gas tank I would really check that out really well. When I first got my boat I removed the tank and found the tank full of pin holes and rust. Not what you want with a inboard tank. I replaced mine with a new moeller polyethylene tank. A little over a hundred bucks but well worth it. You are going to hear alot of warnings about having a inboard gas tank as Trinkka was pointing out and for good reason. Don't take that warning lightly. I replaced my tank, my fuel lines and went to a larger blower. Better safe than sorry. How well does the vire push your boat? I have a Martec folding prop on mine and I am really considering going back to the original two blade. I have never had the original prop on since I have had the boat. Just curious what kind of cruising speed you are getting?
Rick,
I also have a Oday 25 with a Vire 7. The engine when its tuned and in good shape is very reliable. This web site has all then info you need on the engine. http://gofree.indigo.ie/~vire7/ which may be the site you where referring to? Use the spark plug that site recommends that really helped mine. Also I noticed you said something about adding to much oil last year. I would try sucking all that old gas out of the tank and adding fresh gas. Also if you have the original gas tank I would really check that out really well. When I first got my boat I removed the tank and found the tank full of pin holes and rust. Not what you want with a inboard tank. I replaced mine with a new moeller polyethylene tank. A little over a hundred bucks but well worth it. You are going to hear alot of warnings about having a inboard gas tank as Trinkka was pointing out and for good reason. Don't take that warning lightly. I replaced my tank, my fuel lines and went to a larger blower. Better safe than sorry. How well does the vire push your boat? I have a Martec folding prop on mine and I am really considering going back to the original two blade. I have never had the original prop on since I have had the boat. Just curious what kind of cruising speed you are getting?
Rick, for what it's worth, I had a similar problem with the rudder on my O'Day 23. When I bought the boat a few years ago, there was play between the rudder head and the H-bracket that connected the rudder and the tiller. (The hole for the bolt that holds the bracket onto the rudder was fine.) I ended up inserting a few heavy-duty stainless steel washers on the inside of the H-bracket (between the inside of the bracket and the rudder head). That solved my problem.
Bob
Bob
Like Keith said, if you can replace the metal tank with a Polyethylene tank, you'd be wise to do this. Years ago, I left a metal 6 gal OMC tank in my fuel compartment of my boat. It started leaking into the cockpit and through a period of a couple of months during the winter lay up, it ate a hole into my cockpit self bailing hose and raw gas got into my bilge. It took months to rid my boat of the smell of gasoline. It also took a while to find a 6 gal poly fuel tank that would fit in that compartment but I finally did. I no longer use metal tanks, and I'll never leave a gas tank on my boat again in the off season. This year I had bought some new gas for my outboard and come to find out, it had water in it. My truck and my outboard was coughing and sputtering. This Ethanol crap that they put in gas attracts water. So Keith is right about the gas, too. I'd remove it and get some new gas. What I did was add Sta-bill to tank and my outboard seem to be running ok now. Some of the guys in my club have had to replace the pintles and gudgeon on their O'Days. Mine seem to be pretty heavy duty for a boat that size, thank God. Good luck with that.
Joe
Joe
Keithoday25,
I too have the Vire and with the original 2-blade I can get to about 6kts based on my GPS.
Greg
I too have the Vire and with the original 2-blade I can get to about 6kts based on my GPS.
Greg
reply-not sure how to reply in proper order here. I acquired the 25 OD when I BOUGHT A SLIP-OWNER SAID "KEEP THE BOAT" AND AS FAR AS A SUMMER HOME ON THE WATER, IT HAS BEEN GREAT. I have been learning about sail boats tho my mechanical knowledge while not expert is fairly vast but tips are always helpful so I thank u all!! First thing I did was replace the old leaking metal gas tank, secured the mounting frame behind the engine and installed a 11-12 gal. Moeller with ground-vent, etc. Very tight fit plus u have to allow for expansion, etc. I only have about 2 gals. in there and did put Sta-bile in there at haul out in November. I don't think it was water but I'll check on draining the old gas. That at the very least will allow me to re-calculate the propper oil to gas ratio from scratch. When I first ran the engine it moved swiftly so I am guessing 4-6 knots. If it was too slow to make any real headway, I would have felt bored and displeased, being a power boater for 30 years, but I did not get that feeling. Just wish I had someone with Vire experience to check her out for my comfort! I should have removed it the first year and rebuilt and test all systems but that was more work than I've had time for. Re the rudder, it is the sameone in Trinkka's pics w/o that kick up bracket. All FG, transom mounts are fine though bolts need to be replaced on the upper rudder pintle bracket and I will probably fill the tiller hole with epoxy and re-drill and try the heavy ss washers. I had thinner ones which wore thru partially and etched a depression where they rubbed the head. Sounds like the whole head does need to be re-glassed and have some chaffing protection. Ain't goin' no where this weekend! thank u all! Rick
Thanks Carver! That's about what I was expecting. I am getting no where near that speed. About 4 knots on a good day. I have been reading about the exhaust pipe getting clogged up with carbon and I am going to go tomorrow morning to investigate that. I may take the original prop with me and possibly try and change it in the water if cleaning out the exhaust doesn't work. Not sure if that is even possible in the water but I may and try and give it a shot.
jtsboat- That's the same tank I used. A very tight fit for sure. If I did it over I would have went with a much smaller tank. I think the vire uses about one liter an hour. That's a long ways with 12 gallons. I think the original tank was 11 gallon's? Oh well better two much than not enough I guess. You may want to also check out the exhaust like I am going to do. I have been reading that the exhaust gets gummed up and clogged with carbon and robs the engine's power. I am hopping that is what the problem is anyway. Best of luck..
jtsboat- That's the same tank I used. A very tight fit for sure. If I did it over I would have went with a much smaller tank. I think the vire uses about one liter an hour. That's a long ways with 12 gallons. I think the original tank was 11 gallon's? Oh well better two much than not enough I guess. You may want to also check out the exhaust like I am going to do. I have been reading that the exhaust gets gummed up and clogged with carbon and robs the engine's power. I am hopping that is what the problem is anyway. Best of luck..
Just a follow up for those with Vire 7's. I took off the exhaust and found it almost completely clogged up. I would have been lucky to have been able to stick a pencil through it. I don't even see how it ran to be honest. If you haven't cleaned out your exhaust I would check it out it made a huge difference.
Vire 7 questions
Peter Shea
West Chester, PA
I've just purchased a 77 25 tall rig with the same engine...even came with original manuals and documentation that it was rebuilt in 98. I've searched the boards for info and have found a lot but I'm curious about your opinion on oil mixture. The original manual suggests 32:1 for breaking on a new engine then shift to 50:1 There is a note in the log from a previous owner mentioning 4oz/gal....unfortunately the most recent owner has passed away and the seller(a relative) has no idea what was used last. What have you found to be the best mix for your engine? Thanks for your advice.
Peter Shea
West Chester, PA
50-1 Gas-Oil mix would be 2 2/3 oz per gallon, or 1 Pint per 6 gallons.
4 oz per gallon would be 32-1 gas-oil mix.
Not sure where I got it, but here is a good table for determining proper oil amounts for common ratios, or for figuring per gallon.
4 oz per gallon would be 32-1 gas-oil mix.
Not sure where I got it, but here is a good table for determining proper oil amounts for common ratios, or for figuring per gallon.
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What I did...
I brought the pin with the wing nut to the hardware store, poked around in the plumbing deptment and scooped up a couple copper bushings that fit around the pin and drilled out the rudder to the diameter of the bushings. Measured the space between the sides of the H cut one of the bushings down a bit and epoxy directly in the rudder.
Works perfect.
I brought the pin with the wing nut to the hardware store, poked around in the plumbing deptment and scooped up a couple copper bushings that fit around the pin and drilled out the rudder to the diameter of the bushings. Measured the space between the sides of the H cut one of the bushings down a bit and epoxy directly in the rudder.
Works perfect.
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