Route & timing advice: Marina del Rey → Greece on a Downeaster 38

Rick Webb · Thursday at 4:16 AM

I wonder if the folks who run the canal would allow passage through it.

As I understand it motoring through the canal is a requirement and there is a required schedule that must be met as you pass through.

dlochner · Thursday at 4:22 AM

The trip you propose would probably take a year or longer and would be very challenging.

The cost of shipping it would probably exceed the value of the boat or come close to it.

The folks at Cruisers Forum have more experience with this kind of passage. Also check out Jimmy Cornell's World Cruising Routes (Amazon link). That is the Bible for world cruisers.

Timing, you can leave SoCal until after the Pacific Hurricane Season in November. And I'm guessing you would arrive in the eastern Caribbean around the beginning of the Atlantic hurricane season.

garymalmgren · Thursday at 4:25 AM

RE; Roughly how long would you expect MDR → Greece to take on a DE38, assuming typical sailing speeds and conservative use of electric motoring?
4 to 6 months

RE: What route would you recommend? (Panama Canal → Caribbean → Azores → Gibraltar → Greece? Other options?)
That route is directly into the prevailing trade winds!!!
The normal (sane) route is east coast US. Ireland or UK. Spain, then into the MED.

RE: Suggested stops for water, food, and rest along the way (marinas or anchorages with reliable freshwater): West Coast Mexico, Central America, Panama, Caribbean, Azores, Gibraltar, etc.
You are not going to sail from the Caribbean to the Azores! As mentioned above.
I will add Kevin Boothby's preparation for an Atlantic crossing and suggest you watch his following youtubes of his voyage.
That will give you an indication of the Atlantic leg.

The upshot his you have a sailboat. Not an auxiliary power vessel.
You have to actually sail to Greece!
I might sound a little harsh, but that is the reality.
gary

Rick Webb · Thursday at 4:48 AM

My other thought is what is entailed in importing the boat into Greece? Is it worth the expense to do so?

My first inclination was to ship it but I think the reality is that selling it a buying a boat in Greece makes the most sense.

I hate to rain on your parade that would be an epic adventure, and I would love to watch you progress to a successful completion.
Keep us updated on your progress.

Foswick · Thursday at 5:17 AM

There's a lot to this that goes beyond the questions you asked. The thing is, from a practical point of view, the trip doesn't make sense at all. The only way it makes sense is if you just want to make the trip, not because you want to move your boat. And, for me, if I wanted the adventure, I would just go west, not east. Overall, it is a better direction and frankly, not that much farther. Of course, I think I would avoid the Red Sea at the moment, but I wouldn't let that stop me. I would just keep an eye on the situation and make my decision at about the Maldives.

As for electric, I am a big fan, but not for this. I would just treat the trip with the assumption that you will never use the motor. Save your battery for when you need it. If you use up a lot of battery simply because winds have died, then you won't have much left when a storm rolls in that night. Battery technology just still isn't there where you can get any range that will make much difference except to maneuver for relatively short periods.

Another consideration with electric is that you are likely to run into challenges in some locations, if you need parts/repairs.

Again, the only thing that really makes practical sense is to sell your boat and buy a new one - by a long shot. But, if the point is to have an adventure, then have an adventure.

jssailem · Thursday at 6:24 AM

It is flattering that you posed the query here on SBO.

With your two year sailing history and school time, there are so many critical questions that have not been asked about your boat, needed skills, sailing/passage making, etc.

You might better choose to query one of the AI options regarding which tour route to take and best places to stop.

dlochner · Thursday at 6:59 AM

The trip can't be done as the boat is currently equipped. It is highly unlikely the Panama Canal will allow this boat to transit with only an electric motor, unless it has a massive battery bank, a large solar array, and a generator.

Beyond that, trying to outfit a boat for an extended ocean passage that is 10,000 miles from you is fraught with pitfalls. If the boat has not already been outfitted with the equipment for ocean sailing, expect to spend $20,000 to $50,000 to properly outfit it, if you do most of the work yourself.

Once underway expect expenses be at least $1,000 a month and more when in the Caribbean and US.

If you really love this boat and you want to sail it in Greece, ship it. It will be expensive but not any more expensive than out fitting it and sailing it to Greece.

jssailem · Thursday at 8:36 AM

JUST FOR GRINS, I asked ChatGPT for help.

Steps for Sailing from California to Greece:

Learn Basic Sailing Skills (3-6 months)
- Enroll in sailing courses (e.g., ASA 101, 103, 104)
- Gain hands-on experience on small sailboats
Advanced Sailing and Navigation (6-12 months)
- Learn coastal and open-ocean navigation
- Master weather interpretation and safety protocols
Obtain Certifications (up to 1 year)
- International Certificate of Competence (ICC) or equivalent
- Radio operation and first aid certifications
Gain Offshore Experience (1-2 years)
- Participate in offshore passages or races
- Learn about night sailing, watch schedules, and emergency drills
Plan the Route (2-3 months)
- California → Panama Canal → Caribbean → Azores → Mediterranean → Greece
- Research visa requirements, port regulations, and weather windows
Prepare the Sailboat (3-6 months)
- Ensure vessel is bluewater-ready with safety gear, navigation equipment, and provisions
- Conduct sea trials
The Voyage (6-12 months depending on stops)
- Adjust timeline based on weather, rest ports, and personal pace

Estimated Timeline: 3-5 years to master skills and complete the journey.

Foswick · Thursday at 3:03 PM

dlochner said:
The trip can't be done as the boat is currently equipped. It is highly unlikely the Panama Canal will allow this boat to transit with only an electric motor, unless it has a massive battery bank, a large solar array, and a generator.

Beyond that, trying to outfit a boat for an extended ocean passage that is 10,000 miles from you is fraught with pitfalls. If the boat has not already been outfitted with the equipment for ocean sailing, expect to spend $20,000 to $50,000 to properly outfit it, if you do most of the work yourself.

Once underway expect expenses be at least $1,000 a month and more when in the Caribbean and US.

Well, while I agree that there is a lot to recommend some alternative, the trip is far from impossible. It depends on motivations and expectations.

The advice you give is very much indicative of a new breed of cruisers and the expectations thereof. This trip can be done with far less money and with less boat. It just depends on resourcefulness, choices, and expectations. My friend is currently on his third consecutive circumnavigation on a Westsail 32 and spends about $5000-$7000 USD/yr and lives very comfortably. He reports that most of that budget is maintenance/repairs. Now, of course, he's been doing this a while, so he is able to make choices a less experienced person would not. And, he has a silver tongue. He once needed engine work done. Got talking to the mechanic and found out his sister's husband was injured and couldn't work the farm while recovering. So, he worked the farm and got a room and board for two weeks while the mechanic fixed his engine.

Or, another friend of the family sailed a 24-foot boat most of the way around the world back in the 60s with very little in the way of what one would consider "required" for ocean sailing, by modern standards.

Transiting the Panama Canal (if you go that way) is not a huge obstacle. You'll just need to arrange a tow, as you won't be able to sustain the required 5 kts for the duration, otherwise. Sounds like you'll also need to hire line handlers along with the ACP advisor that is otherwise required. The transit will cost thousands of dollars, but is absolutely feasible - particularly if you are comfortable dealing with bureaucracy.

My advice, if you go that way, is to stock up on everything well before entering the canal. You won't get another cheap option for a long while.

dLj · Thursday at 7:42 PM

I'm kind of surprised at the somewhat harsh answers above ...

Yes you can do this trip in this boat as described. But there is a lot left out of the description that would need fleshing out to give better advice as to the full capability of the boat - ahem - and the captain....

Your boat is currently near LA so you have a pretty good trip to the Panama canal from there. As others have mentioned, you will need to have complete ability to motor through the canal. So a generator will need to be on-board with the capacity to run non-stop through the canal. The canal is not cheap to go through - you need four line handlers and s pilot for the trip to be on your boat. The cost to go through will be in the range of $3k IIRC. I would suggest you become a paying member of Noonsite - not just for the canal crossing, but for all the needed information of all countries you will have to stop at.

You can most certainly sail from the Caribbean to the Azores and in fact that would be the preferred route. April is too early. Better mid to end of May. However, you will first sail north towards Bermuda. Bermuda is often a stop prior to going to the Azores but you don't have to. You can sail further East of the Azores and skip them but I'd suggest stopping. They are beautiful. From Bermuda you then head up and catch the westerlies to the Azores. It's a beautiful place to visit!

From the Azores then to Gibraltar and into the Med. Gibraltar is no cake walk. It's very busy, and it can be feisty to get through. Take your time and use good weather windows - especially with electric power.

Realistically expect to take no less than a year and that would be pretty quick. Anything less than that and you are really just doing a delivery and since it's your boat - why the heck would you do that? That would really be a trip I'd prefer to take a solid year to year and a half. And that will be pretty much on the quick side

dj

p.s. If you do make this trip - before or at least once in the Azores - join the telegram groups run by Rui - absolutely to best info on the orcas on the region of Spain, Portugal and Gibraltar....

Rick Webb · Thursday at 7:43 PM

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marcham · Saturday at 10:41 PM

Feodoros27 said:
Hi everyone! I’ve got a few planning questions and would really value your experience.

Downeaster 38, owned for two years

Repowered with an electric engine

Can cruise ~4.5 knots; powered primarily by using solar panells

I recently moved to Greece, but my boat is in Marina del Rey (California). I’m considering sailing her to Greece and would love advice on the passage.

Roughly how long would you expect MDR → Greece to take on a DE38, assuming typical sailing speeds and conservative use of electric motoring?

What route would you recommend? (Panama Canal → Caribbean → Azores → Gibraltar → Greece? Other options?)

Best departure season from Southern California, considering hurricane/cyclone seasons, Panama timing, Atlantic trades, and Med conditions? I’ve heard April can be good for an Atlantic crossing—does that match your experience?

Suggested stops for water, food, and rest along the way (marinas or anchorages with reliable freshwater): West Coast Mexico, Central America, Panama, Caribbean, Azores, Gibraltar, etc.

Tips or gotchas for doing this with electric propulsion (power management, regeneration under sail, solar expectations, genset strategy)?

I recall the Panama canal requires a minimum boat speed of 5 knots... so your vessel would not be granted a permit to cross.

dLj · Sunday at 5:37 AM

Read this carefully. The 5 knot minimum is not mandatory, but can be cause for denial.

dj

Noonsite.com - The Ultimate Cruisers Planning Tool

Official Noonsite Guide to transiting the Panama Canal by pleasure yacht. Here we outline the procedures for a handline transit of the Panama Canal. Find out what to expect, the paperwork required and how to transit with or without an agent, the equipment and time you will need and – most...

www.noonsite.com

marcham · Sunday at 7:30 AM

That's noonsite, not the Panama canal procedures /rules..... I just found it, they do require a minimum of 5 kts

https://pancanal.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/4352-ING-RevDec-12-11-2023.-Updated-3-7-24.pdf

dLj · Sunday at 8:07 AM

The required minimum speed is 5 knots, but that does not mean you can't go through if the boat does not achieve 5 knots. You can be towed by another boat as long as the boat can be towed at a minimum of 5 knots. You can also pay for additional time to cross. The OP said his boat is capable of 4.5 knots. Fulling out paperwork you would round that up to 5 knots. Simply because the boat does not achieve the 5 knots does not mean it cannot go through the Panama canal. It just makes it more complicated.

The question was "is this possible" and the answer to that is yes. Difficult sure, but possible.

dj

jssailem · Sunday at 8:43 AM

There is a lot required of a small sailing yacht to transit the Panama Canal. It would be a great adventure.

In addition to what has been posted, I believe they require rented equipment: i.e., Lines, and tires for fenders, as well as meals for the crew onboard to handle the lines while in the locks.

DArcy · Sunday at 9:24 AM

There has been a focus on the Panama Canal which would be challenging for the boat in question. The cost of transiting the canal might be better put to land transport. It would be about 1500 miles to Galveston, shopping around might find a price similar to that of transiting the canal but would save a few thousand miles of sailing plus the time to transit the canal so a few months off the trip. Or, if time is a serious consideration, keep on trucking to North Carolina and shave off another couple thousand miles of sailing. If time is not a consideration then the canal experience might be worth it. But then, if you have all the time in the world, go West.

dLj · Sunday at 10:05 AM

DArcy said:
But then, if you have all the time in the world, go West.

Going west would be a great trip..might actually take about the same amount of time given the timing problems going East. But running a US flagged ship, I wouldn't go through the Red sea - but as the OP hasn't been seen since original post.. not sure I'll spend much more brain space on the question...

dj

marcham · Sunday at 8:00 PM

Things to consider...

What is the realistic value of the boat after incurring a broker's commission? The boat market in NA has taken a plunge in the last 6-12 months... What could you buy in the Med for that amount of money?

Are all systems ready for an ocean crossing (sails, relatively new standing rigging), etc... how much water and fuel can be stored on board? Do you need a watermaker? is the boat well sealed from weather/water ingress? is the boat setup for sailing in inclement weather (40 kts) (jack lines, sail selection, etc...)
What would the boat need to be autonomous for 4-5 weeks and does it have 500 + NM range in the case of lack of winds / lack of solar? If going the mid Atlantic route you're aiming to stay in the Equatorial Counter current while staying North of the Azores High... If going the Northern route, do you have a cabin heater?

Does the OP have any ocean crossing experience or would they likely need to bring a friend or hire a skipper to have their insurance cover them?
Does the OP have the time to refit the boat for this purpose and take it across?
What is the cost of shipping the boat (via boat).... might be cheaper to ship it by land to texas/florida and then by sea to the Med.
Is the value of the vessel justify the shipping cost or the cost associated with this voyage ? (refit, wear and tear, equipment breakdowns along the way....)
Would it be more cost effective to sell the boat and buy another one in the Med?

Suggest the OP purchase a copy of Cornel's World Cruising Routes.... to gain an appreciation of seasons and weather patterns...

Route & timing advice: Marina del Rey → Greece on a Downeaster 38

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SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John

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SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John

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