I have been checking the archives for articles on weather helm. It seems most of you do not reef until about 12 to 15 knots if not more. I find I am fighting the rudder after about 8 knots. I bought my 1995 Hunter 26 last year and I am sailing with the original main & Jib. My question is to those of you with a water balast boat, when do you reef?
Rounding Up
- Thread starter Ken Greavett
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Rounding up Water Ballast Boat
I've learned that that key is to balance your headsail/main ratio. Yes, you start to get overpowered around the 10-12 mph range but by reducing headsail and careful management of the mainsheet, you can sail in much higher winds without reefing the main if you think the condition is temporary. However, if I think the winds are going to stay in the 15mph + range, I'll bite the bullet and reef the main. The boat sails very well with a reefed main and a reduced headsail. I've also learned that the boat sails very well with just the jib or just the main on almost any point of sail. Winds get too high for comfort?, just pop out the jib, drop the main and sit back and relax.
I've learned that that key is to balance your headsail/main ratio. Yes, you start to get overpowered around the 10-12 mph range but by reducing headsail and careful management of the mainsheet, you can sail in much higher winds without reefing the main if you think the condition is temporary. However, if I think the winds are going to stay in the 15mph + range, I'll bite the bullet and reef the main. The boat sails very well with a reefed main and a reduced headsail. I've also learned that the boat sails very well with just the jib or just the main on almost any point of sail. Winds get too high for comfort?, just pop out the jib, drop the main and sit back and relax.
Ken
The jib is the powerhouse of that boat. Reef it first. Reef the main to balance the boat. A little weather helm is okay by the way. You just don't want the rudder over so far that it acts like a brake. If you're rounding up in gusts, you might want to set the mainsheet traveller to leeward & reduce the angle of attack. I figure you have some sort of sail balance issue. 8 knots should be a sweet spot for that boat.
The jib is the powerhouse of that boat. Reef it first. Reef the main to balance the boat. A little weather helm is okay by the way. You just don't want the rudder over so far that it acts like a brake. If you're rounding up in gusts, you might want to set the mainsheet traveller to leeward & reduce the angle of attack. I figure you have some sort of sail balance issue. 8 knots should be a sweet spot for that boat.
Sail balance
George mentioned sail balance in terms of actually reducing sail. You can relieve tiller pressure by changing the balance with trim contols too. Perhaps you know more about sail trim than I do. I often contribute replies thinking it might benefit other readers as much or more than the original poster. IE no offence if you have all this under control already... You want to reduce the power of the main and/or increase the power of the jib to balance the forces causing weather helm. Think of each sail being pushed on and trying to rotate the boat about the centerboard. Rather than fighting it with the tiller, ballance the forces by adjusting trim (to a point, before more drastic measures are called for). Increasing jib power may seem to go against what you want to do when you are already heeling and feeling a bit overpowered. A few weeks ago I was in that position when a sailing buddy hardened the jibs sheet on me before I realized what he was doing. I was surprised how I felt more comfortable when the tiller force eased even though the heel was the same or maybe even a tiny bit more. Disclaimer - I'm no expert yet but I'm learning more about sail trim. Here it is off the top of my head... You reduce the power of the main by lowering the traveler if you have one and/or easing the mainsheet to reduce the angle of attack. You can increase twist by easing the boom vang and/or mainsheet to depower the upper portion of the main and "spill the wind out the top". There is more: harden the halyard and/or cunningham and/or outhaul to reduce draft depth and move the draft position forward, all power-reducing measures. Likewise, you can increase the power of the jib by sheeting it in. I don't think you have a track for the jib blocks (neither do I), so that control is out. Otherwise, you could move the fairlead forward to reduce twist and increase power. All of this assumes that it is applicable to your point of sail at the time, and that you have a bit of comfort room left before you should be taking the next step and reducing sail area as George discussed. ...RickM...
George mentioned sail balance in terms of actually reducing sail. You can relieve tiller pressure by changing the balance with trim contols too. Perhaps you know more about sail trim than I do. I often contribute replies thinking it might benefit other readers as much or more than the original poster. IE no offence if you have all this under control already... You want to reduce the power of the main and/or increase the power of the jib to balance the forces causing weather helm. Think of each sail being pushed on and trying to rotate the boat about the centerboard. Rather than fighting it with the tiller, ballance the forces by adjusting trim (to a point, before more drastic measures are called for). Increasing jib power may seem to go against what you want to do when you are already heeling and feeling a bit overpowered. A few weeks ago I was in that position when a sailing buddy hardened the jibs sheet on me before I realized what he was doing. I was surprised how I felt more comfortable when the tiller force eased even though the heel was the same or maybe even a tiny bit more. Disclaimer - I'm no expert yet but I'm learning more about sail trim. Here it is off the top of my head... You reduce the power of the main by lowering the traveler if you have one and/or easing the mainsheet to reduce the angle of attack. You can increase twist by easing the boom vang and/or mainsheet to depower the upper portion of the main and "spill the wind out the top". There is more: harden the halyard and/or cunningham and/or outhaul to reduce draft depth and move the draft position forward, all power-reducing measures. Likewise, you can increase the power of the jib by sheeting it in. I don't think you have a track for the jib blocks (neither do I), so that control is out. Otherwise, you could move the fairlead forward to reduce twist and increase power. All of this assumes that it is applicable to your point of sail at the time, and that you have a bit of comfort room left before you should be taking the next step and reducing sail area as George discussed. ...RickM...
Rudder pressure
We sometimes had excessive rudder pressure when the rudder started kicking up slighty and higher speeds. The rope/wingnut needs to be pretty tight. Markdb
We sometimes had excessive rudder pressure when the rudder started kicking up slighty and higher speeds. The rope/wingnut needs to be pretty tight. Markdb
Could be your rudder position
I had a similar problem with my 23.5 and 26, and what it turned out to be was the rudder position. WHen you lower the rudder, it is easy to pull it past center and it will be two far forward, which can cause lee helm, which will keep the boat from tracking properly. If the rudder shifts aft of center, it will cause weather helm. The original design was to allow the rudder to kick up if it hit soemthing, and as a former Mississippi River sailor, that could be benficial. However, the speed of the boat will gradually pull the blade back. The easiest way to tell if the rudder is adjusted correctly is to look at the black cheek blocks. The trailing edge of the rudder should be parallel to the cheek plocks so that the same amount of white fiberglass is showing from top to bottom. Than use a 3/4" wrench to snug the pivot bolt and the wing nut, but don't overtighten and crush the blade. I have found (on my boat)that if the pivot bolt is too loose, it doesn't matter how tight the wing nut, the rudder will still slip. The other thing to check is your rig tuning. If the forestay is too loose, the boat will have weather helm.
I had a similar problem with my 23.5 and 26, and what it turned out to be was the rudder position. WHen you lower the rudder, it is easy to pull it past center and it will be two far forward, which can cause lee helm, which will keep the boat from tracking properly. If the rudder shifts aft of center, it will cause weather helm. The original design was to allow the rudder to kick up if it hit soemthing, and as a former Mississippi River sailor, that could be benficial. However, the speed of the boat will gradually pull the blade back. The easiest way to tell if the rudder is adjusted correctly is to look at the black cheek blocks. The trailing edge of the rudder should be parallel to the cheek plocks so that the same amount of white fiberglass is showing from top to bottom. Than use a 3/4" wrench to snug the pivot bolt and the wing nut, but don't overtighten and crush the blade. I have found (on my boat)that if the pivot bolt is too loose, it doesn't matter how tight the wing nut, the rudder will still slip. The other thing to check is your rig tuning. If the forestay is too loose, the boat will have weather helm.
Weather Helm
If you are really fighting the rudder a 8 knots, then your problem is weather helm. There are a number of really good threads on this subject in the archives. Root causes of excessive weather helm include: - the sail plan is too far aft - as Juice says, shortening the forestay (refer to your rig tuning procedure) will move the rig forward. - the angle of attack of the sail is too shallow - move the traveler downwind. (If you don't have a treveler, tighten the vang, and ease the mainsheet.) - sail shape is too full. Tighten the clew outhaul. On our boat, the main had lost its shape, so this meant a new main. But the reduction of weather helm (and increase in boat speed) was tremendous. Good luck - there is a fix for this problem! David Lady Lillie
If you are really fighting the rudder a 8 knots, then your problem is weather helm. There are a number of really good threads on this subject in the archives. Root causes of excessive weather helm include: - the sail plan is too far aft - as Juice says, shortening the forestay (refer to your rig tuning procedure) will move the rig forward. - the angle of attack of the sail is too shallow - move the traveler downwind. (If you don't have a treveler, tighten the vang, and ease the mainsheet.) - sail shape is too full. Tighten the clew outhaul. On our boat, the main had lost its shape, so this meant a new main. But the reduction of weather helm (and increase in boat speed) was tremendous. Good luck - there is a fix for this problem! David Lady Lillie
H26 Rudder
Thanks to Juice for reminding us about the rudder. I pin mine in the same position each time I go out but I'd forgotten that a lot of trial and error went into getting just the right setting at first. Here's a 1994 article from Rob Mazza the designer of the hunter trailerable rudder. There is a picture with the article, but Juice does a good job explaining what it shows. "RUDDER BALANCE AND WEATHER HELM ON HUNTER TRAILERABLES Do you think your boat has too much weather helm? Too much lee helm? The problem and the solution may have nothing to do with the balance of the boat and may be related directly to the balance of your rudder. The two subjects of rudder balance and weather (or lee) helm are closely linked even though they are, surprisingly enough, totally unrelated. Rudder balance refers to the amount of rudder area extending forward of the turning axis of the rudder and affects how much load you will feel on the tiller. For instance, very little balance will create a very "heavy" or highly loaded helm, while too much balance will create a "lightly" loaded helm. If you try and Steer a Hunter trailerable with the rudder raised to horizontal you have felt an extreme case of heavy helm! If balance is increased too much, that is the blade raked too far forward, the helm can even become "over balanced" so that if you let go of the tiller the rudder will continue to turn or "capsize" in the direction it was initially turned. This can be a little disconcerting, to say the least, and demands constant attention to steering. Weather helm, on the other hand has to do with a different type of balance - the longitudinal balance between the center of effort of the sail plan and the center of pressure of the hull, centerboard and rudder. If the sail area is too far aft, the boat will tend to round up or head into the wind. This is weather helm and should always be present to some degree. If the sail area is too far forward the boat will bear off or turn downwind. This is "lee helm" and should be avoided at all cost. Too much weather helm is manifested by a heavy load on the helm as you fight to keep the boat from shooting into the wind. Lee helm is evident when you let go of the tiller and the boat falls off and continues to head down away from the wind instead of up into the wind. Weather helm means you are always pulling on the tiller; Lee helm means you are always pushing on the tiller. This assumes that you are sitting where you are supposed to be sitting when going upwind - on the weather side of the boat. The link between these too unrelated subjects is the load on the helm. Even the most experienced sailors can confuse an under balanced rudder with excessive weather helm or an overbalanced rudder with lee helm. So, before you start panicking and moving your mast to solve a problem that may not exist, check your rudder blade position. The Hunter 19,23.5 and 26 all have pivoting rudder blades to allow the rudders to be raised for trailering. That means that the owner can literally dial in the amount of helm balance he or she wants to suit the conditions of the day. The rudders were designed with the flat on the back of the top of the blade parallel with the back of the rudder cage. This gives a good all 'round balance. Raking the rudder aft will reduce balance and increase load on the tiller, which may be desirable in very light air. Raking the blade forward will increase balance and reduce helm load, which may be desirable in heavy air. However, beware of excessive forward rake and an overbalanced condition, which will need constant attention and will create a lee helm feel to the boat. The rudder blade is adjusted by loosening the rudder clamp "wing nut" on the side of the cage and adjusting the blade angle with the continuous lift and pull down lines and reclamping the wing nut. Remember to never tie the pull down line to the cleat on the bottom of the tiller when the rudder is lowered. This will prevent the rudder from "kicking up" if you run aground or hit a log. If the rudder is not allowed to kick up, damage to the transom at the lower gudgeon will result upon grounding. The cleat should only be used to tie the rudder blade in the up position for launching and trailering. So remember, the load on the helm can be more of a function of the correct adjustment of the rudder blade than the location of the sail plan. Play with rudder rake and see the effect."
Thanks to Juice for reminding us about the rudder. I pin mine in the same position each time I go out but I'd forgotten that a lot of trial and error went into getting just the right setting at first. Here's a 1994 article from Rob Mazza the designer of the hunter trailerable rudder. There is a picture with the article, but Juice does a good job explaining what it shows. "RUDDER BALANCE AND WEATHER HELM ON HUNTER TRAILERABLES Do you think your boat has too much weather helm? Too much lee helm? The problem and the solution may have nothing to do with the balance of the boat and may be related directly to the balance of your rudder. The two subjects of rudder balance and weather (or lee) helm are closely linked even though they are, surprisingly enough, totally unrelated. Rudder balance refers to the amount of rudder area extending forward of the turning axis of the rudder and affects how much load you will feel on the tiller. For instance, very little balance will create a very "heavy" or highly loaded helm, while too much balance will create a "lightly" loaded helm. If you try and Steer a Hunter trailerable with the rudder raised to horizontal you have felt an extreme case of heavy helm! If balance is increased too much, that is the blade raked too far forward, the helm can even become "over balanced" so that if you let go of the tiller the rudder will continue to turn or "capsize" in the direction it was initially turned. This can be a little disconcerting, to say the least, and demands constant attention to steering. Weather helm, on the other hand has to do with a different type of balance - the longitudinal balance between the center of effort of the sail plan and the center of pressure of the hull, centerboard and rudder. If the sail area is too far aft, the boat will tend to round up or head into the wind. This is weather helm and should always be present to some degree. If the sail area is too far forward the boat will bear off or turn downwind. This is "lee helm" and should be avoided at all cost. Too much weather helm is manifested by a heavy load on the helm as you fight to keep the boat from shooting into the wind. Lee helm is evident when you let go of the tiller and the boat falls off and continues to head down away from the wind instead of up into the wind. Weather helm means you are always pulling on the tiller; Lee helm means you are always pushing on the tiller. This assumes that you are sitting where you are supposed to be sitting when going upwind - on the weather side of the boat. The link between these too unrelated subjects is the load on the helm. Even the most experienced sailors can confuse an under balanced rudder with excessive weather helm or an overbalanced rudder with lee helm. So, before you start panicking and moving your mast to solve a problem that may not exist, check your rudder blade position. The Hunter 19,23.5 and 26 all have pivoting rudder blades to allow the rudders to be raised for trailering. That means that the owner can literally dial in the amount of helm balance he or she wants to suit the conditions of the day. The rudders were designed with the flat on the back of the top of the blade parallel with the back of the rudder cage. This gives a good all 'round balance. Raking the rudder aft will reduce balance and increase load on the tiller, which may be desirable in very light air. Raking the blade forward will increase balance and reduce helm load, which may be desirable in heavy air. However, beware of excessive forward rake and an overbalanced condition, which will need constant attention and will create a lee helm feel to the boat. The rudder blade is adjusted by loosening the rudder clamp "wing nut" on the side of the cage and adjusting the blade angle with the continuous lift and pull down lines and reclamping the wing nut. Remember to never tie the pull down line to the cleat on the bottom of the tiller when the rudder is lowered. This will prevent the rudder from "kicking up" if you run aground or hit a log. If the rudder is not allowed to kick up, damage to the transom at the lower gudgeon will result upon grounding. The cleat should only be used to tie the rudder blade in the up position for launching and trailering. So remember, the load on the helm can be more of a function of the correct adjustment of the rudder blade than the location of the sail plan. Play with rudder rake and see the effect."
It's the Rudder
I have experienced the exact same problem. It is the rudder. Under heavy wind conditions the rudder tends to float up, or move back. It is very important to make sure your rudder is going straight down and tightened very tight before you start sailing. Otherwise, reef around 12 mph to 15 mph to control excessive weather helm.
I have experienced the exact same problem. It is the rudder. Under heavy wind conditions the rudder tends to float up, or move back. It is very important to make sure your rudder is going straight down and tightened very tight before you start sailing. Otherwise, reef around 12 mph to 15 mph to control excessive weather helm.
Thnaks for the imput
I would like to thank everyone for their comments it is greatly appreciated. For the record, this past weekend the wind was again in the 8 to 11 knot range gusting a bit higher at times as per my ST50 wind meter. I put the full main up and spent the afternoon playing with the jib. What worked best was a full main and only about 20% jib. Once I figured that out the rounding up was all but gone and the stress on the rudder was way down.
I would like to thank everyone for their comments it is greatly appreciated. For the record, this past weekend the wind was again in the 8 to 11 knot range gusting a bit higher at times as per my ST50 wind meter. I put the full main up and spent the afternoon playing with the jib. What worked best was a full main and only about 20% jib. Once I figured that out the rounding up was all but gone and the stress on the rudder was way down.
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