Room at the start?
- Thread starter LakeShark
- Start date
It's pretty simple, really. Windward rights would cause chaos. There is no limit to how much a windward boat can force a leeward boat into undesirable action as long as they are on the same tack. A leeward boat would be held captive to anything a windward boat wants them to do. A windward boat could chase a leeward boat clear off the course and make him do circles.
With leeward rights, both boats are equally limited to the extent that they can pinch into the wind. Once they are luffing, neither boat has an advantage. If you don't want to be bothered by a leeward boat, it is simple … just stay far enough to windward so they can't reach you. It's really just common sense why the rules give the rights to the leeward boat. It is the only way to preserve any order.
With leeward rights, both boats are equally limited to the extent that they can pinch into the wind. Once they are luffing, neither boat has an advantage. If you don't want to be bothered by a leeward boat, it is simple … just stay far enough to windward so they can't reach you. It's really just common sense why the rules give the rights to the leeward boat. It is the only way to preserve any order.
They couldn’t actually force circles - once they’re dead downwind and Leeward gybes they’ll be on opposite tacks, so the cycle would end there. But I see your point that the windward boat could hold Leeward DDW indefinitely, whereas with the rule the way it is it’s not sustainable to just luff indefinitely holding Windward up.
Just spotted this in Scuttlebutt last night. On point to the discussion.
www.ussailing.org
Dave Perry’s 100 Best Racing Rules Quizzes - US Sailing
Quiz 3 Question Answer Question: Boat Q, a doublehanded trapeze boat, wins the race. On shore, Q is listed as OCS on the score sheet. Q makes a scoring request to the race committee and is told that, though her hull was not over the starting line, her crew’s head and shoulders were on the […]
www.ussailing.org
Indeed.Just spotted this in Scuttlebutt last night. On point to the discussion.
Dave Perry’s 100 Best Racing Rules Quizzes - US Sailing
Quiz 3 Question Answer Question: Boat Q, a doublehanded trapeze boat, wins the race. On shore, Q is listed as OCS on the score sheet. Q makes a scoring request to the race committee and is told that, though her hull was not over the starting line, her crew’s head and shoulders were on the […]
1) ANYTIME you are reaching pre-start in you are in danger. Once close hauled, you're good. Until then, you actions are under intense rules scrutiny. 10x if you are outside the laylines.
2) SAYING something has no meaning unless you are backing it with immediate action. Until then it is 'room freely given', and a boat is under no obligation to listen to your little speech.
3) Slam-dunking a boat into the RC will win you ZERO friends.
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I posted this awhile back, but its very relevant here. We're approaching the RC boat close-hauled and on the layline. There are boats below us (OK), and boats above us (in trouble). I'm going to close the door on two of them (when I say 'that is NOT going to work'), but the key is that because I am already close hauled, I do not change course and therefor am not required to leave them room to keep clear under RRS 16.1. They both wisely bail out and take a 2nd row start.
Hopefully this does not come across as pedantic, just seeking clarity. When I look at the case cited in the quiz, it fits with everything I have read or seen in terms of rights and responsibilities on the start line but I am stuck on the element of reaching and how it fits. It seems to me that the leeward boat could have picked a slightly higher angle (but lower than close hauled) that did not leave room for the windward boat and as long as she didn't change course she would not breach any rules. Am I missing an element?
I can certainly see how a reaching boat could not fit in that space above a close hauled boat and still keep clear.
Dan
I can certainly see how a reaching boat could not fit in that space above a close hauled boat and still keep clear.
Dan
Very fair point. And you are 100% correct, once 'L' had changed to the closer reach and ipso facto given room earlier, they would have been OK.
Except.
What always happens is someone else closes the door on 'L'.
So what boats want to do (and happened in the example) is that 'L' reaches like crazy to the layline, and then turns up immediately to close hauled, now feeling safe from any leeward boats. But in doing so they jam 'W' and break 16.1
Which quiz are you talking about - #16? I'm not sure what your question is, but I think the point of the example was that you can't just call "no room" to the windward boat. You have to close the space, otherwise it is freely given. In the example, the leeward boat waited too long to close the space. They turned up when the windward boat had no place to go and caused the collision. If you are going to enforce the leeward rights, you actually have to do it (far enough in advance), not just make noise.
I think the other point is that if you are attempting to reach into position, you are asking for trouble. In JD's video, he was close hauled tight against the committee boat. He didn't have to turn up (or at least it was imperceptible in the video). The reaching boats found out they had no room before they got to the committee boat. JD gave them a warning in advance that he wasn't giving them room … that was enough because he already had them closed out.
Contrast that to your opening remarks about a boat that chronically "barges" into position. He's doing it because nobody is closing him out. You can't just complain, you actually have to take the position away from him, otherwise it is space freely given.
I think the other point is that if you are attempting to reach into position, you are asking for trouble. In JD's video, he was close hauled tight against the committee boat. He didn't have to turn up (or at least it was imperceptible in the video). The reaching boats found out they had no room before they got to the committee boat. JD gave them a warning in advance that he wasn't giving them room … that was enough because he already had them closed out.
Contrast that to your opening remarks about a boat that chronically "barges" into position. He's doing it because nobody is closing him out. You can't just complain, you actually have to take the position away from him, otherwise it is space freely given.
Wow I knew that if i asked here i would get a detailed explanation. It makes since that the windward boat had to give right away and with the quiz / examples cited I can now understand the why of it as well. Good discussion and thanks everyone for your detailed response.
oh and incase it helps here is a picture of the start of a different race (where we had plenty of room) were boat 11 and the start of the Gold fleet. you can clearly see the length of the start, committee boat, and from this angle who has rights on who. However being in the thick of it can sometimes be a bit more challenging in the moment.
oh and incase it helps here is a picture of the start of a different race (where we had plenty of room) were boat 11 and the start of the Gold fleet. you can clearly see the length of the start, committee boat, and from this angle who has rights on who. However being in the thick of it can sometimes be a bit more challenging in the moment.
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