I have four questions for Don. But first, a little background on myself. I'm 53 yrs old and decided about this time last year to learn to sail after many years of powerboating (no challenge). I purchased a 79 O'day 23 in February; sails include a 150 genoa, a working jib, a smaller jib (about 75%) and of course the main (no furler or boom vang), just the standard rigging. I took lessons in March from a qualified instructor. He informed me that I needed to practice as often as possible and then return for a few more lessons in sail trim afer mastering the basics in boat handling. Well, I'm ready for some sail trim help after a few white knuckle experiences. Here's the problem I'm experiencing, in 12-15 knot winds the working jib seems to overpower the main. When I try to hold a close reach, I get a 15-20* heel which is uncomfortable for my crew (my wife). The boat feels like it wants to fall off the wind. Here's my questions; 1-How much heel should be expected in those conditions? 2-Am I using the proper jib? 3-Should I invest in more lessons at this time or just keep practicing? 4-Are these conditions too much for a sailor of six months? I try adjusting the sails but I don't think I've come close to getting the proper performance from the boat or sails. An example, this weekend we were sailing in 15-17 knot winds with gusts to 25. I reefed the main before going out, put on the smaller jib and the boat handled much better. During a couple of the stronger gusts, the boat spun into the wind and scared the bejesus out of my wife. When I tried the full main with the working jib, the boat would fall off sharply. I felt like I didn't know what I was doing, but when I watched other boats I saw all types of sail configurations from jib only, main only, genoas, and even a spinaker. No one seemd to be doing any better than I myself. I enjoyed the weekend but feel as though I can do much better, HELP! Mark
Rookie needs help!
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Sail Trim
Do a search on sail trim here on this forum -- once you have read all that, you should have much more information. But actually, it seems you are getting the hang of. Practice, as you have said is the answer. 10 - 12 knots of wind is perfect for learning. There was a recent post on twist, very good one -- teaches how to power up or power down a sail. Best of luck and congratulations on your new hobbie. Paul
Do a search on sail trim here on this forum -- once you have read all that, you should have much more information. But actually, it seems you are getting the hang of. Practice, as you have said is the answer. 10 - 12 knots of wind is perfect for learning. There was a recent post on twist, very good one -- teaches how to power up or power down a sail. Best of luck and congratulations on your new hobbie. Paul
I think that it is time for . . .
I think that it is time for those extra lessons! Your turn into the wind sounds like a broach - a loss of control caused by heeling the boat too far in too much wind. Some boats do it easier than others. Causes are underwater shape of the hull and the lever arm (viewed from above the boat) of the mast leaning out over the water and away from the resistance of the boat's hull. I do not understand why the jib is causing you to fall off of the wind - we call this lee helm. Do you have the jib sheeted in too tight? Does your boat have a traveller? If not then no vang is a real difficulty ( and an issue in any event), the sail just turns into a bag when the mainsheet is eased w/o a vang. So - when hit by a gust - do you sheet out the mainsheet, or ease the traveller? Here we reach my knowledge limit - as I have a vang and traveller - I am not really sure what happens if you just ease the mainsheet w/o these tools. They control sail twist and to some degree fullness (power), but w/o them I think the boom will rise too far and the sail just turn into a bag. This may keep you overpowered even if you ease the sail - but I am not sure as I always use some vang to control shape so I can ease the main sail to control heel with either mainsheet of traveller. Many will say the traveller is the best way to ease the main sail - but I have an awkward traveller and some of our lake winds have such a big difference in the gusts to the lulls that I like to add a measure of twist as I ease - hence the easing on the mainsheeet controlled by a vang. Either way will work if done peoperly. Another thought - does your boat have a centerboard and are you sure that it is it down properly? Also - sit aft in heavy winds on a small boat - this helps keep the stern down and the rudder deeper in the water to forestall a broach a bit longer. This will be interesting when the experts chime in - we will both learn some stuff - there are a few tricky issues here. Best o' Luck,
I think that it is time for those extra lessons! Your turn into the wind sounds like a broach - a loss of control caused by heeling the boat too far in too much wind. Some boats do it easier than others. Causes are underwater shape of the hull and the lever arm (viewed from above the boat) of the mast leaning out over the water and away from the resistance of the boat's hull. I do not understand why the jib is causing you to fall off of the wind - we call this lee helm. Do you have the jib sheeted in too tight? Does your boat have a traveller? If not then no vang is a real difficulty ( and an issue in any event), the sail just turns into a bag when the mainsheet is eased w/o a vang. So - when hit by a gust - do you sheet out the mainsheet, or ease the traveller? Here we reach my knowledge limit - as I have a vang and traveller - I am not really sure what happens if you just ease the mainsheet w/o these tools. They control sail twist and to some degree fullness (power), but w/o them I think the boom will rise too far and the sail just turn into a bag. This may keep you overpowered even if you ease the sail - but I am not sure as I always use some vang to control shape so I can ease the main sail to control heel with either mainsheet of traveller. Many will say the traveller is the best way to ease the main sail - but I have an awkward traveller and some of our lake winds have such a big difference in the gusts to the lulls that I like to add a measure of twist as I ease - hence the easing on the mainsheeet controlled by a vang. Either way will work if done peoperly. Another thought - does your boat have a centerboard and are you sure that it is it down properly? Also - sit aft in heavy winds on a small boat - this helps keep the stern down and the rudder deeper in the water to forestall a broach a bit longer. This will be interesting when the experts chime in - we will both learn some stuff - there are a few tricky issues here. Best o' Luck,
a few comments...
There's too much power in the main. Set the twist(Don discusses this in the archives), then use the traveller to adjust the amount of heel you're comfortable with. I like 10-15 deg. In gusty conditions I recommend holding the mainsheet, uncleated, so you can adjust for the power surges with the sail rather than using the rudder to compensate. At your level, anything over 15 kts I would reef the main. Use the working jib for anything over 10 kts, save the genoa for lighter air until you get more confident with your mainsail. Also, over 12kts you need to start flattening the main, and inducing more twist in the jib. This is where controls like cunningham, outhaul, halyard tension, vang, and lead position come into play. Go to your local chandlery or Amazon.com and pick up a copy of Tom Whidden's "Art and Science of Sails" or order Don's book from here. There are many excellent books and videos on the subject of sail trimming (I think I have all of 'em). If you don't have the "Annapolis Book of Seamanship" in your library, don't hesitate, buy it now.... you and your wife will learn so much. Both of you will soar with conficence.
There's too much power in the main. Set the twist(Don discusses this in the archives), then use the traveller to adjust the amount of heel you're comfortable with. I like 10-15 deg. In gusty conditions I recommend holding the mainsheet, uncleated, so you can adjust for the power surges with the sail rather than using the rudder to compensate. At your level, anything over 15 kts I would reef the main. Use the working jib for anything over 10 kts, save the genoa for lighter air until you get more confident with your mainsail. Also, over 12kts you need to start flattening the main, and inducing more twist in the jib. This is where controls like cunningham, outhaul, halyard tension, vang, and lead position come into play. Go to your local chandlery or Amazon.com and pick up a copy of Tom Whidden's "Art and Science of Sails" or order Don's book from here. There are many excellent books and videos on the subject of sail trimming (I think I have all of 'em). If you don't have the "Annapolis Book of Seamanship" in your library, don't hesitate, buy it now.... you and your wife will learn so much. Both of you will soar with conficence.
How to gain more experience quickly
One way to quickly gain experience is to crew on a race boat. You don't need to know what you are doing on most boats, they will teach you. Find a yacht club and put your name on the crew list. I found that I have learned much more by sailing with others than by sailing alone.
One way to quickly gain experience is to crew on a race boat. You don't need to know what you are doing on most boats, they will teach you. Find a yacht club and put your name on the crew list. I found that I have learned much more by sailing with others than by sailing alone.
My two bits
I can't imagine a sailboat without a boom vang! I can't imagine sailing (as I did in my first season) without ever adjusting the boom vang or outhaul to depower the main when over-powered. I can't imagine sailing without getting Don's book and reading it many, many times. I do OK without a traveller but I know it would be a great addition. Although I haven't tried it on my boat, you should be able to produce lee helm by over trimming the jib and under trimming the main or various combinations of the two. This is perhaps more likely on a masthead rig than on my fractional rig. I don't know which you have. I think everyone should know how their boat handles with jib alone and main alone. For example, If I'm doing 5.5 knots on a reefed main only, I don't bother with the jib (unless maybe if I'm alone and want to experiment and learn). Some boats can do either; others only one or the other, sometimes maybe only safely for certain points of sail. You need to learn and practice heaving-to, getting out of irons, and reefing while under way. Oh, and reading telltails! ...RickM...
I can't imagine a sailboat without a boom vang! I can't imagine sailing (as I did in my first season) without ever adjusting the boom vang or outhaul to depower the main when over-powered. I can't imagine sailing without getting Don's book and reading it many, many times. I do OK without a traveller but I know it would be a great addition. Although I haven't tried it on my boat, you should be able to produce lee helm by over trimming the jib and under trimming the main or various combinations of the two. This is perhaps more likely on a masthead rig than on my fractional rig. I don't know which you have. I think everyone should know how their boat handles with jib alone and main alone. For example, If I'm doing 5.5 knots on a reefed main only, I don't bother with the jib (unless maybe if I'm alone and want to experiment and learn). Some boats can do either; others only one or the other, sometimes maybe only safely for certain points of sail. You need to learn and practice heaving-to, getting out of irons, and reefing while under way. Oh, and reading telltails! ...RickM...
my $.02
Hello Mark, Good for you for getting out there and doing it. I have been sailing for three years now, so I DO remember what it's like when the wind picks up, the boat starts to heel, the crew starts to panic, and the captain isn't sure what to do. When the wind is 15 kts and you are headed upwind, the boat will heel 15+ degrees. Unless you really twist the sails and luff them, the boat will heel and there really isn't anything you can do about it. If you don't want to heel that much you will have to reduce sail by reefing the main and switching to a smaller headsail. Don't worry about the lack of a boom vang. My understanding that sail control is only used when you are sailing off the wind. Heeling usually isn't an issue then. Sailing in 10-15 kt winds is great, but that's also the transition period between trying to use all of the energy from wind (like when the wind is less than 10 and you use a deeper draft, no twist, etc.) and when you start trying to spill the wind energy (by reducing the draft, twisting the sails to spill upper wind, etc.). Up to 10 kts, the wind energy mostly goes to making the boat move through the water (assuming the sails are trimmed properly). Above 10 kts, the energy starts making the boat heel instead of moving faster. If your sails are old, the boat will heel more because you can't control the draft very well. My suggestions are to sail with reduced sail area and gradually get used to more heeling. When we first started sailing, heeling at 15 degrees would panic my wife and kids. Now I don't get any complaints until we're leaning at 30 degrees. Good luck, Barry
Hello Mark, Good for you for getting out there and doing it. I have been sailing for three years now, so I DO remember what it's like when the wind picks up, the boat starts to heel, the crew starts to panic, and the captain isn't sure what to do. When the wind is 15 kts and you are headed upwind, the boat will heel 15+ degrees. Unless you really twist the sails and luff them, the boat will heel and there really isn't anything you can do about it. If you don't want to heel that much you will have to reduce sail by reefing the main and switching to a smaller headsail. Don't worry about the lack of a boom vang. My understanding that sail control is only used when you are sailing off the wind. Heeling usually isn't an issue then. Sailing in 10-15 kt winds is great, but that's also the transition period between trying to use all of the energy from wind (like when the wind is less than 10 and you use a deeper draft, no twist, etc.) and when you start trying to spill the wind energy (by reducing the draft, twisting the sails to spill upper wind, etc.). Up to 10 kts, the wind energy mostly goes to making the boat move through the water (assuming the sails are trimmed properly). Above 10 kts, the energy starts making the boat heel instead of moving faster. If your sails are old, the boat will heel more because you can't control the draft very well. My suggestions are to sail with reduced sail area and gradually get used to more heeling. When we first started sailing, heeling at 15 degrees would panic my wife and kids. Now I don't get any complaints until we're leaning at 30 degrees. Good luck, Barry
added info
I forgot to include a few details, it's a masthead rig. I do have a centerboard and I adjust it according to my point of sail, 3/4 down for close hauled to 1/4 down for a beam reach. Thanks to all for the input, this is a great site. I've read everything I can get my hands on related to sail trim including the archives on this site. I've learned quite a bit by just reading the info. It is somewhat difficult to picture in my minds eye how the sails should look while reading the descriptions. I think it may just be a matter of building a little more confidence and simply experimenting a little each time I sail. I do have a tendency to leave the sails alone and not make the small adjustments for wind changes. The great thing (one at least) about sailing is that no two days are alike, always a little something different. I think I'm generally doing okay with the learning curve thus far. Now docking in 25 knot gusts *o may be another item for discussion. We got her back safely in the slip without any damage and most importantly no damage to anyone else's boat. My wife tells me I'm too much of a perfectionist, maybe so, but I do like to feel as though I am getting close to the optimum performance from the boat and the wind conditions. WHAT A GREAT SPORT!! I just wish I hadn't wasted so many years in a powerboat.
I forgot to include a few details, it's a masthead rig. I do have a centerboard and I adjust it according to my point of sail, 3/4 down for close hauled to 1/4 down for a beam reach. Thanks to all for the input, this is a great site. I've read everything I can get my hands on related to sail trim including the archives on this site. I've learned quite a bit by just reading the info. It is somewhat difficult to picture in my minds eye how the sails should look while reading the descriptions. I think it may just be a matter of building a little more confidence and simply experimenting a little each time I sail. I do have a tendency to leave the sails alone and not make the small adjustments for wind changes. The great thing (one at least) about sailing is that no two days are alike, always a little something different. I think I'm generally doing okay with the learning curve thus far. Now docking in 25 knot gusts *o may be another item for discussion. We got her back safely in the slip without any damage and most importantly no damage to anyone else's boat. My wife tells me I'm too much of a perfectionist, maybe so, but I do like to feel as though I am getting close to the optimum performance from the boat and the wind conditions. WHAT A GREAT SPORT!! I just wish I hadn't wasted so many years in a powerboat.
Centerboard
Try the centerboard all the way down for close hauled. With the board up part way you move the center of resistance aft - which can or will cause the lee helm that you have spoken of. The reason to lift the board off the wind is for extra performance (racing), you don't really need to mess with it for a recreational sail.
Try the centerboard all the way down for close hauled. With the board up part way you move the center of resistance aft - which can or will cause the lee helm that you have spoken of. The reason to lift the board off the wind is for extra performance (racing), you don't really need to mess with it for a recreational sail.
Rookie
Mark: I wish I had more time to spend here but we are in the process of moving. In fact, the packers are here today and the moving van comes tomorrow so I have to get right to the point. Here's my take on your situation. You are at a point with your instructions that you probably know your way around the boat. The approach your now taking is what I call shot gun and it really does not work because you end up jumping all over the place. What then happens is you adjust one control and it effects other aspect of the sail so the corrections become endless and you end up working against yourself. Sail trim is pretty easy to understand when it is presented in a logical and plain English manner. I've done that with my book The Sail Trim Users Guide and my Sail Trim Chart. You start off with draft depth, draft position, twist and angle of attack. When you understand those 4 things your half way home. Next I take you through EVERY sail trim control for the main and jib. In many other books on sail trim, the information is all over the place. You might find the outhaul on pages 25, 62, 123 and 345. In my book, everything you ever wanted to know about the outhaul is in one section and it is the same for all the other controls. There are sections on procedures and telltales and on and on. I guarantee you that if you purchase my stuff and spend the time necessay time to digest the material you will know more about sail trim than 75% of the sailor worldwide. If you do not feel you got value for your money I'll refund and you can keep the stuff. As a point of information, I was where you are at a number of years ago when I decided to get back into sailing. I took lessons, raced, talked to dock neighbors and ended up so confused I did not know what I was doing. I decided to figure out sail trim myself and literally spent hundreds and hundreds of hours researching and testing every concept until I finally got it right. A mate could do the same thing I did if they wanted to invest the time but why waste your time when I've already done it for you. Is your time worth $33.50 - I'll bet it is.
Mark: I wish I had more time to spend here but we are in the process of moving. In fact, the packers are here today and the moving van comes tomorrow so I have to get right to the point. Here's my take on your situation. You are at a point with your instructions that you probably know your way around the boat. The approach your now taking is what I call shot gun and it really does not work because you end up jumping all over the place. What then happens is you adjust one control and it effects other aspect of the sail so the corrections become endless and you end up working against yourself. Sail trim is pretty easy to understand when it is presented in a logical and plain English manner. I've done that with my book The Sail Trim Users Guide and my Sail Trim Chart. You start off with draft depth, draft position, twist and angle of attack. When you understand those 4 things your half way home. Next I take you through EVERY sail trim control for the main and jib. In many other books on sail trim, the information is all over the place. You might find the outhaul on pages 25, 62, 123 and 345. In my book, everything you ever wanted to know about the outhaul is in one section and it is the same for all the other controls. There are sections on procedures and telltales and on and on. I guarantee you that if you purchase my stuff and spend the time necessay time to digest the material you will know more about sail trim than 75% of the sailor worldwide. If you do not feel you got value for your money I'll refund and you can keep the stuff. As a point of information, I was where you are at a number of years ago when I decided to get back into sailing. I took lessons, raced, talked to dock neighbors and ended up so confused I did not know what I was doing. I decided to figure out sail trim myself and literally spent hundreds and hundreds of hours researching and testing every concept until I finally got it right. A mate could do the same thing I did if they wanted to invest the time but why waste your time when I've already done it for you. Is your time worth $33.50 - I'll bet it is.
leave the board down
I like old cat's advice. Concentrate on working and trimming the sails and forget about the centerboard for awhile. On a windy day you need all the stability you can get, no matter what your point of sail, and the board won't slow you down much then. The WHOLE POINT of sailing is to balance the boat to the conditions. Don't worry about performance. Don't overtrim the main and jib. When the boat is balanced it will be easy to handle and the speed will increase. Heeling the boat over and tugging hard on the tiller to keep her from rounding up is not what performance is all about. When the wind increases, ease the sheets and drop the traveller, keep the boat flat. A centerboard boat is normally designed to be sailed flat anyway.
I like old cat's advice. Concentrate on working and trimming the sails and forget about the centerboard for awhile. On a windy day you need all the stability you can get, no matter what your point of sail, and the board won't slow you down much then. The WHOLE POINT of sailing is to balance the boat to the conditions. Don't worry about performance. Don't overtrim the main and jib. When the boat is balanced it will be easy to handle and the speed will increase. Heeling the boat over and tugging hard on the tiller to keep her from rounding up is not what performance is all about. When the wind increases, ease the sheets and drop the traveller, keep the boat flat. A centerboard boat is normally designed to be sailed flat anyway.
Simple way to learn
Mulligan, Like Golf, sailing is easy to learn but take a life time to master. I used to drive a stink-pot(power boat) but converted to rag-top (M26S sailboat) a few years ago. I didn't know what I was doing until I read Roger Macgregor's article, see link, and started to relate what goes on. Two years ago, I got into a yacht club and started to crew on Wednesday night racing. Now I frequent single-handed distance racing events. Racing is a very quick way to learn. For example heading into wind actually reduce keeling etc. Have fun..
Mulligan, Like Golf, sailing is easy to learn but take a life time to master. I used to drive a stink-pot(power boat) but converted to rag-top (M26S sailboat) a few years ago. I didn't know what I was doing until I read Roger Macgregor's article, see link, and started to relate what goes on. Two years ago, I got into a yacht club and started to crew on Wednesday night racing. Now I frequent single-handed distance racing events. Racing is a very quick way to learn. For example heading into wind actually reduce keeling etc. Have fun..
Centerboard
Mark: The more that I think about this, the more that I think that the BIG problem is the centerboard. 3/4 way down is not OK on most such boats for upwind sailing (close haul or close reach). Moving the center of resistance aft WILL cause lee helm - and as water is 800x denser than air - you won't be able to correct with sail trim changes until the CB is right. I would recommend considering the CB to be an advanced adjustment - for now put it down all the way and leave it there. The small loss in speed off the wind won't matter while you are learning - and may never matter on a recreational sail. I'd say play with it only after you are confident of at least intermediate level sail trim, headsail choice and reefing. I leave the boards down all the time when I sail my catamaran - less work and hassle - a racer would pull them up on a down wind leg. The 'larger' boats that I sail are J22s. These boats belong to a sailing school - I rent season's usage. The boats have mostly workable but mediocre rigging. Outhauls may be jammed, halyards are cleated off to cam cleats. Too much tension and you can't easily release the halyard at the cam cleat to reef or drop sail. So I sail with a limited range of sail adjustments all the time - still, I make do and stay under control even in a bunch of whitecaps, thanks to experience and good teachers. My point here is that really fine control of sail shape is not needed to control the boat - decent settings for halyard tension, cunningham and outhaul will do. Mostly you need to not have too much sail up for conditions (reef and/or smaller headsail when it blows), and learn how to play mainsheet, traveller and vang to control heel of the boat. As you don't have a vang - ease the traveller in a gust. Then ease the mainsheet if you need to do more to stop heeling. If it is hard to control, reef. One last comment: I second all of Joe's advice except the last sentence - I am not sure that he caught the difference between a centerboard dinghy like a Laser and a shoal keel/centerboard combo like an O'Day or Precision. These boats don't plane like a Laser, so can tolerate more heel and still be fast. Still, somewhere over 15 or 20 degrees of heel, performance will suffer. You will need to find experts on your particular boat to know where excess heel hurts speed. Or, experiment using a log or GPS's speed function yourself. Cheers, and Best o' Luck, OldCat
Mark: The more that I think about this, the more that I think that the BIG problem is the centerboard. 3/4 way down is not OK on most such boats for upwind sailing (close haul or close reach). Moving the center of resistance aft WILL cause lee helm - and as water is 800x denser than air - you won't be able to correct with sail trim changes until the CB is right. I would recommend considering the CB to be an advanced adjustment - for now put it down all the way and leave it there. The small loss in speed off the wind won't matter while you are learning - and may never matter on a recreational sail. I'd say play with it only after you are confident of at least intermediate level sail trim, headsail choice and reefing. I leave the boards down all the time when I sail my catamaran - less work and hassle - a racer would pull them up on a down wind leg. The 'larger' boats that I sail are J22s. These boats belong to a sailing school - I rent season's usage. The boats have mostly workable but mediocre rigging. Outhauls may be jammed, halyards are cleated off to cam cleats. Too much tension and you can't easily release the halyard at the cam cleat to reef or drop sail. So I sail with a limited range of sail adjustments all the time - still, I make do and stay under control even in a bunch of whitecaps, thanks to experience and good teachers. My point here is that really fine control of sail shape is not needed to control the boat - decent settings for halyard tension, cunningham and outhaul will do. Mostly you need to not have too much sail up for conditions (reef and/or smaller headsail when it blows), and learn how to play mainsheet, traveller and vang to control heel of the boat. As you don't have a vang - ease the traveller in a gust. Then ease the mainsheet if you need to do more to stop heeling. If it is hard to control, reef. One last comment: I second all of Joe's advice except the last sentence - I am not sure that he caught the difference between a centerboard dinghy like a Laser and a shoal keel/centerboard combo like an O'Day or Precision. These boats don't plane like a Laser, so can tolerate more heel and still be fast. Still, somewhere over 15 or 20 degrees of heel, performance will suffer. You will need to find experts on your particular boat to know where excess heel hurts speed. Or, experiment using a log or GPS's speed function yourself. Cheers, and Best o' Luck, OldCat
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