Roller Furling: A "Necessity"?

[Fred Ficarra]

Ron, about RF vs. RR

That's a pretty strong statement you made. I must disagree. I suspect any examples forthcoming from you about poor sail shape/performance while under reduced RF sail area can be traced to a sail not properly modified/built for RF. (what'd he say?? *o) Sure, reefed shape is not as good as a dedicated smaller headsail but in todays real world, few boats have the crew needed for such athletic/dangerous activity. And who drops a 150 genoa to the deck in a blow when there is no way to hold it in place, to pull up a smaller sail, also with no way to hold it in place. That's one maneuver I would never do. I don't recall seeing it done on purpose in America's Cup racing either. And large sail inventories are rare too. They take up room that most cruisers want for other uses, like sleeping. And, hell I could go on for hours,,, did I mention the expense of extra sails?

 

[p323ms]

Fred I really like having two headsails

My sails were made for roller furling. One is about 110 the other about 150. We pretty much use the 150 all summer and the 110 all winter. Though we are thinking about using the 110 all of the time. It is soooooo much easier to tack with the 110. In light wind conditions we often have to walk the 150 over the dinghy. No davits so we store the hard dinghy on deck.Tom

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Tom I do too.

We used to carry our 110 as a backup. Used it a couple of times too. But it went away when a 'green' crew member didn't secure it on deck properly. It was in a bag. I don't recall why it was moved to the deck. That was many years ago. We never replaced it. We had a spare 150 for our cruising to Trinidad. Had to use it once because of a tear.  What are you driving? Any pictures?

 

[p323ms]

Fred We have a Pearson 323

It is our first "big Boat" we moved up.We hope to cruise but are having engine troubles right now. The propeller shaft coupler failed and we may have to replace the shaft also. I plan to go to Panama city this weekend to hopefully fix the problem. It is a 1980 model in pretty good shape. If all the stars are lined up and the weather is good we hope to go from PC to Key west this spring. We might go to Venice and then straight to the dry tortugas. It all depends. The guy across the dock from us took his Morgan 33 down there last spring. Another dockmate took his hunter 34 to Key west a few weeks earlier. Greg in his morgan had two days of rough weather when they were caught between two storms. He was lucky a few weeks after he got back he blew a hole in his engine and had to replace it. Another couple sailed their 40' boat from Texas without an engine. They had friends tow them to open water and other friends meet them at Panama city to tow them to their slip. Sorry I am ramblingTom

 

[Scott]

Matt, don't make it account for too much.

The RF device costs from $1,400 to better than $2,000 for a 27 foot boat, right? If the boat comes with a couple of nice headsails, then you either convert them or buy a new sail or sails depending upon your view of reefing a RF genoa. So you need to add that expense into the mix. If you like that boat the best, negotiate with the seller for the deficiency and then make the deal. You can try hanking the sails and then make the conversion if it makes more sense to you.Wow! I'm surprised at how many say that RF is the best thing since sliced bread! I have to admit that I never have had to deal with a pitching deck. I actually enjoy the trip to the foredeck to hank the sails so I guess I'm a fan for the old style. My wife wants to convert to the RF because she takes other peoples advice more readily than I do.

 

[BarryL]

reefing vs furling

Hello,From the Furlex web site:Furlex jib furling and reefing systemI think that sums it up.My boat came with a UK 150 genoa with two reef points on the sail. It works great.As others have written, I would not own a boat without a furling headsail. Barry

 

[Stu Jackson]

There are some RFs and some RRs

ProFurl advertises theirs as roller furling, and actually says you can use a winch to work the drum.Many other manufacturers say NEVER use a winch.There are now so many different manufacturers of "head sail storage devices" ;D these days, that it pays to do some homework for cost and proposed use.Many are called roller furlers, others are called roller reefers, for good reason (even before getting into sail shape when "partially rolled up).Stu

 

[Rich]

Critical safety device when singlehanding

Matt, if you are a novice and plan to be singlehanding your boat a furled jib is an important safety device to get you through your inexperience. My first boat had a hank-on jib and the first episodes of going forward to haul it up while alone on the boat were hazardous and difficult. The cost of one of the boats with a furler will be worth it for your skill level, believe me.

 

[Warren]

Furling...or not

I wrote an article for Sailnet on this subject some time ago. See link below.When I was a sailing "purist" some time ago, I really liked having hank-on sails. I had a lot of them and used all of them as needed. They allowed my to sail in just about any conditions. Since that time, I've bought a bigger boat that came with a single sail on a Hood furler. The short story is that I love having the furler. While it doesn't allow me the choices I had with hank-on sails, the convenience and safety (fast sail reduction, deploying and furling from the cockpit, not having to go forward on a pitching foredeck while solo sailing, etc.)aspects clearly make furling my choice now.

 

[p323ms]

Warren the event you describe

in your article is simular to what happened to my wife and I. The wind was gusty and coming from different directions. When we tried to roll up the genny a large flap developed that was shaking the whole boat. When we tried to unroll the sail to rollit up correctly it wouldn't unroll. My wife wasn't strong enough to wrestle the sail and since we were in a narrow channel surrounded by shallow water every time we tried to head up into the wind the depth alarm would go off. The partially wrapped sail would not come down. The only solution that worked was to untie the sheets and unwrap the sail by hand which is much easier to say than to do. Once I unwrapped the sail enough to clear the flap we rolled up the sail and continued the rest of the day with a reefed mainsail. We are now very careful when rolling up the sail but in gusty varible direction conditions it takes a lot of attention. I have think that it would be almost impossible during the night when the sail would be hard to see. If this had happen sailing solo I would have ended up on the beach.

 

[Tom Monroe]

From a 150 to something small ... fast

I singlehand a lot, and to change my hank-on headsails, I just set the boat up on a broad reach where she balances nicely, go up on the bow, and change the thing. I've been doing it long enough it doesn't particularly worry me, and I know how to do it effiently and safely. I don't NEED roller furling.But OK, I'll be 56 next month. If someone can explain to me how I go from a 150 drifting along to an 80 or 90 when a midwestern squall line comes through, quickly, and without having to go up front, I'd see a major advantage and buy it next month. Maybe I don't understand roller furling or roller reefing well enough, but my perception is that it doesn't work that way.The guys I see on Carlyle Lake that have them usually use 150's on the furler, and when a front comes through they just roll the thing up and turn on the engine. I'd rather sail out of a storm than motor out of it.Comments?Tom MonroeCarlyle Lake

 

[Big Windy]

RF/RR

Here are the definitions as noted in Marisafe (http://www.marisafe.com/resources/boatdictionary.asp?vmcid=41&vmpid=16)Roller Furling:A method of furling a sail by winding/wrapping it on a stay.Roller Reefing:A system of reducing sail by rolling it around the boom or stay using a roller furler.

 

[Kevin B]

Tom, here's a comment

Most of the posts make the point that RF's biggest benefit is not having to go forward on a pitching foredeck when wind and waves are high, and water is washing over the bow. Your post didn't mention what kind of waves you encounter on your lake; maybe it is not as big a factor as it would be on the coasts or Great Lakes.

 

[Rich]

I said NOVICE

Okay, Tom, I'll offer you a comment--I suggested that roller furling is a big safety aid for a singlehanding NOVICE, which you clearly are not. As a still-novice getting more experience as I go I can tell you that concepts like "just set the boat on a broad reach" are not simple operations when you're new to the game. Every operation requires some thought in those first couple of seasons and a furling jib removes a number of troubling problems from the equation. I would also suggest a NOVICE use the working jib for a while rather than the Genoas and not fuss about trying to ever change off the head sail while under way, furler or not. Experienced sailors have difficulty remembering what it was like not to have any skills, but you need to have some sympathy for how us beginners need to keep things under control while we sort out the process.

 

[G. Bean, s/v Freya]

Purists or Luddites?

If we were not to have anything on the boat that could possibly break, then we’d all be using buckets instead of our marine sanitation devices. I’ve had roller furling on two boats and never came close to having a jam. Roller furlers are pretty simplistic devices and if you keep some tension on the sheets while furling, you shouldn’t get a headsail wrap. Maintenance to ensure proper operation is also pretty easy. Just flush out the salt from the nylon bearings after use. Not having to make my wife help flake sails every weekend is worth it at twice the price of an RF unit. Something we did to make furling easier is we replaced the furling cleat with a Harken single block with cam cleat attached to the push pit using a stanchion mount adapter. The block decreases the force needed to furl plus it is easy to cleat off, allowing for much better control. It is true that jibs can only be roller reefed about twenty percent of LP (they loose the ability to maintain luff tension), before they loose their shape. But in a pinch, I have reefed them much deeper. After all, there are times when sail shape isn’t all that important. Sometimes you just want to make it home. Because of the shape problem, we still use several different sized jibs and swap out when conditions merit (performance matters to me.) Changing headsails on a roller furler at sea is the same as on a foil. The only difference is you cannot do a peel away. But then again, you can only do bald headed changes with hanked on jibs. Sailing San Francisco Bay affords plenty of opportunity to roller reef or furl in windy conditions and I’ll take roller furling over going to the forepeak every time. I do have a question. If it’s blowing in the twenties, the boat’s doing a broad reach, and you’re single handing, how do you wrestle a jib down to the deck? Wouldn’t it be flying out to the leeward like a flag? As I recall, it was blowing in the mid to upper twenties when the following picture was taken. We were getting overpowered on last few tacks to the finish line. So we pulled in a bit of jenny in the middle of a tack to get the boat back on her feet. Not pretty but we wanted to keep the leach closed and boat speed up. You can see that even with less than five percent furled, how you loose shape in the luff.

 

[Eric]

I have both options available to me

I have a small trailerable boat. The boat came to me with a furler, which I used for a couple of seasons. BTW, I still consider myself a relative newby, only sailed for 4 seasons. I do single hand or sail with inexperienced crew about 70 percent of the time.My first 2 seasons I slipped my boat, and the furler was great at the end of the day when it was time to pack up. I never really liked what happened to the sail when I sailed with it reefed.Since I have a compliment of good hank on sails, I decided I would try that route. The last two seasons I've been trailering instead, and I find the setting up the rig marginally easier. I read on a forum like this about rigging a downhaul for the jib, which I rigged. I also rigged the mainsail's jiffy reefing. To make a long story short, I feel that sailing with hank on jibs has made me a MUCH better sailor! I pay close attention to the weather forecasts before setting off, so as to pick the correct jib size. I taught myself how to heave to, so I could reef the main, in case I need to depower. I learned how to better control my main, using the traveller, boom vang, outhaul, and cunningham. In my mind, once the jib is set, I drive the boat by the main, where before with the furler, I'd play with the reefing line, and get a crap shape. Why, because the furler was there and I didn't know what else to do! I find myself paying way more attention to the main now, and controlling my power that way. My jib maintains a great shape, no matter which one I use! If I still have to depower, my downhaul works great, and I use it! I also believe in reef often and reef early! I love a good ride, with the rail down and getting sprayed, but setting the right jib, and reefing the main (if needed) will result in better speed and a more comfortable ride!I should also point out that this past spring I had the good fortune to crew on a Bene 40.7 at the Toronto NOOD. The boat had a roller furler, but we never used it! The skipper selected a jib/genoa for the conditions, and raised and lowered it like a regular hank on sail! Once we got a little overpowered, he spilled from the main, and we changed headsails on a spinnaker run, ready for the next mark!

 

[Joe]

Nicely stated Eric....

Roller furling is a convenience, for sure, but I've come to appreciate the advantages of a suit of headsails to accommodate varying conditions. If I'm unsure about the upcoming wind conditions I'll hank on the 110, that way if the wind moderates I can change to the 150. If the wind pipes up I can concentrate on the main, knowing the 110 is good to 25 or so. Because the entire luff stays attached to the forestay, the hank on will not slide off the boat accidently and I can drop it to the deck between the laced lifelines, using the downhaul if necessary. But...there are times when roller furling really shines, like the end of the day when you don't have fold two or three headsails and cram them into the vee berth.By the way, Rich, even a NOVICE sailor should know the points of sail. Every sailing instructional I've ever seen has the points of sail explained in the first chapter. If a novice hasn't taken the time to read at least the first few chapters of a basic sailing tutorial....well then...he's no novice....he's an idiot!!!! Instead of worrying about whether he needs roller furling or not he needs to think about learning some rock bottom basics. I hope that doesn't offend the newbie or hurt anyone's feelings but sometimes a little tough love is in order.

 

[Tom Monroe]

Rich and Fred

I don't think I expressed my point very well. Like Warren, I have used hank on's with great success. That's a good article, Warren. But also like Warren, I really don't want to sit on the foredeck anymore up to my waist in water. I can do it quickly, safely, and well. I just don't want to anymore. Last time I did it, I remarked to my wife that night about how I was getting too old for this *&%$%^. Carlyle Lake may be a lake, but we still can get waves big enough to put serious water on the foredeck.So I am beginning to think that RF is close to a NECESSITY for older persons, and probably close to that for novices. But I still want to be able to RELIABLY and QUICKLY match my sail area to conditions.Fred, your post seems to indicate that today's well-made headsails and associated equipment can reliably let you reduce a 150 to 100 or below. True statement? Can you point me to the equipment and the sailmaker?Tom MonroeCarlyle Lake

 

[Mike C.]

Difference is Fun(ny)...

I have a 22' Catalina that I sailed on lakes (before we bought the H33.5). My girlfriend had never been on a sailboat so the date was set on her first sail. That Sunday the wind was about 20-30 mph. I thought what the heck pull up the 110 (and No Reef main) and let her rip. (The Catalina has a furler but on a trailer-boat it's easier to step the mast without it!) We readied the boat from the ramp, hoisted the sails and motored out close to the point going out of the cove into the 20 to 30 that was a very tight close reach to get out of the cove after passing the point the full blow hit the boat and instantly breeched! (Infact did a coupld of 360's and right before getting grounded I got her headed up wind.) YEEEWOOOOOEEEEE.... Crap Ah-Mighty... Sheeeeeet!! One of the things I do is Laugh when my but is in a Jam, so I was laughing like heck as we were heeled at 30+ degrees and blown around. After we sailed up the lake a few miles in the gusting blow I decided to hit a cove and take a break. Dropped the hook and started talking about what just happened. She said, "I thought that everything was OK since you were laughing". Yea, I was laughing so I wouldn't crap my pants! I was Very Thankful that it didn't scare the living heck out of her or my sailing days could be short and few. (She is part owner in the 33.5 now.) She doesn't like the rollers at the jetties but heck she ain't scared of breaching!Now. If the roller furler had been on the Catalina I would have rolled the entire sail Up on the double breech day but having to fight to keep from being grounded there was No Time To Drop the 110 Jib... Hang on and hope for the Best!Mike

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Tom, Harken and Seattle's Sobstad loft.

But I haven't seen them at the boat show for a year or two. Anybody know if they are still in town?