Does anyone know if the inferior steel problem with the Rocna anchor has been remedied? I notice that WM is featuring them again.
Rocna, yes or no?
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rocna anchors
Don't have an answer to your question but I'm glad you ask it I was just about to ask the same question. I tried to contact Rocna but there contact information didn't give one that option....Found that interesting.
I'll be following you thread closely, thanks for posting it.
Ken
Don't have an answer to your question but I'm glad you ask it I was just about to ask the same question. I tried to contact Rocna but there contact information didn't give one that option....Found that interesting.
I'll be following you thread closely, thanks for posting it.
Ken
We need for MaineSail to weigh in.. here was a post from late last year..
http://forums.hunter.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=859765&highlight=Rocna
http://forums.hunter.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=859765&highlight=Rocna
I bought one when all this hoopla was going down last year and was dismayed and worried that I had made a big mistake and nearly took it back. I even queried Mainesail about it and his is choked that Rochna mad misleading statements about their anchors and about shots taken at their competitors. In the end, I decided to keep it and give a season after talking to the local rep here in Vancouver. He offered to test the anchor with a hardness test to prove that it was up to par but I wanted to go sailing....I've now dropped this hook a dozen times or so and it definitely bites fast and holds solid. I have not put it to the test in a hard blow as most of our anchorages in the PNW are fairly sheltered but am looking forward to seeing what it will do. It is still far better than the other anchors I've tried including CQR, and Danforth. Cheers
Here's what I know;
CMP (Canada Metals Pacific) now manufacturers the Rocna. They are a well respected & well run company.
The Bamburry brothers are now GONE from Rocna and CMP and this is good.
CMP is manufacturing them in their own Chinese factory. They are not built by a Chinese contracted factory as Hold Fast did but rather a factory that is 100% owned, managed and operated by CMP.
CMP has addressed the metallurgy problem but without calling them you'd be hard pressed to know if you got a CMP made product or a Hold Fast product.
The anchor is a tremendous design.
On the other hand the Manson Supreme is also an excellent design, can be bought for less money and is manufactured from Bisalloy 80 which is exactly water Peter Smith insisted the Rocna be made of. These anchors are also manufactured in Manson's factory in New Zealand... Unless I had 150% proof I was buying a CMP made Rocna I'd be buying a Manson Supreme
CMP (Canada Metals Pacific) now manufacturers the Rocna. They are a well respected & well run company.
The Bamburry brothers are now GONE from Rocna and CMP and this is good.
CMP is manufacturing them in their own Chinese factory. They are not built by a Chinese contracted factory as Hold Fast did but rather a factory that is 100% owned, managed and operated by CMP.
CMP has addressed the metallurgy problem but without calling them you'd be hard pressed to know if you got a CMP made product or a Hold Fast product.
The anchor is a tremendous design.
On the other hand the Manson Supreme is also an excellent design, can be bought for less money and is manufactured from Bisalloy 80 which is exactly water Peter Smith insisted the Rocna be made of. These anchors are also manufactured in Manson's factory in New Zealand... Unless I had 150% proof I was buying a CMP made Rocna I'd be buying a Manson Supreme
I don't think it was much of an inferior steel problem its still heavy and sinks. I think the problem was the anchors were being made in China and not Canada and the public was not informed. I think they still said "Made in Canada" when they should have said "Product of Canada".
See, huge problem. Same anchor. It still sinks and holds your boat.
It may have just been an over site of the manufacturer. Hmm
I am in the market for one and would gladly purchase on from China.
Remember its an anchor not fine cook wear.
See, huge problem. Same anchor. It still sinks and holds your boat.
It may have just been an over site of the manufacturer. Hmm
I am in the market for one and would gladly purchase on from China.
Remember its an anchor not fine cook wear.
That was never the problem and the Chinese made anchors said, made in China...
The problem was inferior steel, lies by the manufacturer about certifications & specifications. The specification was CHANGED by the Hold Fast management not the Chinese manufacturer. The grade of steel was literally cut in half from what Peter Smith, the designer, had insisted upon. Yep same weight, still sinks but it should not come up looking like a pretzel...
Thanks, Maine.. I have been thinking about buying one of the two to replace my Bruce as the main anchor.. I remembered the part about the lower strength and I remember seeing the note that the Canadian guys had regained control.. but wasn't sure whether they'd cleared all the Hold Fast stuff from inventories..
Wow! I thought the controversy was just that it was made in China apposed to Canada. (I didn't think they put made in China on it.) I didn't know that they changed the steel recipe to include silly putty.
Maybe I should look at my anchor like my cook wear.
Maybe I should look at my anchor like my cook wear.
metal quality
Quality is a term. Metallurgy is a physical science. Sometimes the two are intertwined. Understand that if your life depends on the quality of metal do not trust Chinese metal.
Malleable iron weighs about the same as carbon steel, stainless steel but is not trustworthy in applications involving strength.
Tools made in China must be termed throw away. Anchors made in China must be termed as questionable. And it apparently does not depend on who owners factory or plant. Chinese engineers just do not grasp quality.
Why was Japanese stuff good? Because they understood quality in design and manufacture. In Japan it goes to Edwards Demming who taught Japanese engineers the nature of quality.
Quality is not free, it is intrinsic in design and manufacture. It costs up front.
Ed K
"Learning is not compulsory… neither is survival.” W. Edwards Demming
Quality is a term. Metallurgy is a physical science. Sometimes the two are intertwined. Understand that if your life depends on the quality of metal do not trust Chinese metal.
Malleable iron weighs about the same as carbon steel, stainless steel but is not trustworthy in applications involving strength.
Tools made in China must be termed throw away. Anchors made in China must be termed as questionable. And it apparently does not depend on who owners factory or plant. Chinese engineers just do not grasp quality.
Why was Japanese stuff good? Because they understood quality in design and manufacture. In Japan it goes to Edwards Demming who taught Japanese engineers the nature of quality.
Quality is not free, it is intrinsic in design and manufacture. It costs up front.
Ed K
"Learning is not compulsory… neither is survival.” W. Edwards Demming
Heartfelt thanks to Maine Sail, for the solid information.... I hope we can find out just what happened to all those inferior anchors and they been taken off the market..
Nothing worse than waking at 4:00 AM to face a blow. Be even worse owning an anchor that will never work again because it looks like a pretzel....
Thanks again Maine Sail..
Ken
Nothing worse than waking at 4:00 AM to face a blow. Be even worse owning an anchor that will never work again because it looks like a pretzel....
Thanks again Maine Sail..
Ken
Hogwash.
If you read the details of the "history" of the Rocna anchors, you'll find out that this is simply not true.
I have an "early" version, before they started skimping on the shaft's metal. It's still straight.
Once "someone" f*ed with the metal, they started to have problems. The real BIG issue was the "coverup." Ain't it always that way?
There's little assurance that every Rocna anchor being sold NOW is the "fixed" model.
I'm glad I bought mine when they first came out, and then they were equal to or less than a Manson Supreme in $.
If I had to make a choice now, I wouldn't hesitate to choose a Manson, and forget about a Rocna (unless I could have them PROVE it was the new variety AND it was less expensive).
Pretty simple choice, folks.
Gee Shoaldrafter, I guess I better forget about that 72ft Marlow I wanted outfitted with the Furuno nav gear, Victron electrics, and Apple computers.
The claim (and I don't know if it was true) is that the Hold Fast folks specified the lower grade of steel to the Chinese factory. In my experience (substantial), the Chinese are quite capable of building to any quality. If you tell them you care more about price than quality - they'll oblige. Many US companies who want to see huge savings from "outsourcing" do just that.
Since West Marine offered a refund for the old Rocna's (a real stand-up move by West), I'd be astonished if CMP would risk their West distribution relationship by shipping the same defective stock. If you want the Rocna, I'd ask West to check if it came from CMP's factory.
The other thing I learned from the Rocna story is that a small bend (1-2 degrees) in a shank can make many modern anchors not dig in. It will lean over and carve off to one side. That's why the Bisalloy 80 shank was so important. Even that can bend - so I now occasionally check the shank straightness on my Manson Supreme.
Carl
The claim (and I don't know if it was true) is that the Hold Fast folks specified the lower grade of steel to the Chinese factory. In my experience (substantial), the Chinese are quite capable of building to any quality. If you tell them you care more about price than quality - they'll oblige. Many US companies who want to see huge savings from "outsourcing" do just that.
Since West Marine offered a refund for the old Rocna's (a real stand-up move by West), I'd be astonished if CMP would risk their West distribution relationship by shipping the same defective stock. If you want the Rocna, I'd ask West to check if it came from CMP's factory.
The other thing I learned from the Rocna story is that a small bend (1-2 degrees) in a shank can make many modern anchors not dig in. It will lean over and carve off to one side. That's why the Bisalloy 80 shank was so important. Even that can bend - so I now occasionally check the shank straightness on my Manson Supreme.
Carl
Does anyone have experience with the Ultra Anchor? Looks a bit like the new Manson Boss. It is only available in stainless so a bit pricey. Played with a model at the Strictly Sail show this weekend and it was pretty impressive but certainly not real experience.
SS anchors
Don't buy a ss anchor, or a ss shackle or rode for anchoring.
Why? 'Cuz they are not as strong.
That's why you see them on so many mobos. They simply don't know any better.
Don't buy a ss anchor, or a ss shackle or rode for anchoring.
Why? 'Cuz they are not as strong.
That's why you see them on so many mobos. They simply don't know any better.
I certainly hope you don't fly commercial airlines such as Boeing or drive cars then....
Let's not forget who made the change in metal. It was made by Hold Fast management eg: Steve Bambury not the Chinese. The Chinese did exactly what they were told to do.
Umm you better not be planning surgery any time soon those Chinese made surgical tools are gonna kill you....
Where do you come up with this stuff? Try looking around you and you'll quickly see that you are surrounded by quality Chinese made goods. Both Honda & Toyota, including Acura, Lexus & Scion are perhaps the most reliable brands in the world for automobiles. Both of these brands are LOADED with Chinese made components and still the most reliable cars on the road.. Honda builds Accords in China and Toyota builds Camry's there, among other models and components. Denso, the Japanese manufacturer of some of the most reliable automotive electronic components (Nippondenso), is doing a large chunk of their manufacturing in China. The medical device and surgical industries are manufacturing large amounts of devices & tools in China. Even the pharmaceutical sector now does a ton of manufacturing in China. My high quality Fluke meters are made in China. They are still just as high quality as ever, extremely reliable and as accurate as can be. But of course, the Chinese don't know quality...
THE CHINESE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LOWER GRADE OF STEEL IN THE ROCNA ANCHOR. ROCNA MANAGEMENT SPECIFIED THE CHANGE & THE CHINESE DID AS THEY WERE TOLD TO DO....
I carry an Ultra as a hoop anchor wouldn't fit through the bowsprit. My second anchor is a Manson Supreme
The strength argument is nonsense. The cross sections of the the Ultra are more than strong enough in stainless. My 3/8" HT chain is much weaker. It is my primary anchor. I've sat through 50 knot storms with no dragging. The design is very similar to a Spade. A great anchor itself.
The Supreme has a well deserved reputation but I think the weighted tip of the Ultra makes it set - and more importantly, reset after a wind change - even more reliably than the Supreme in hard and grass bottoms. The smooth stainless and no hoop also seems to bring less mud up.
The biggest negative of the Ultra is cost. If I hadn't had the bowsprit issue, I probably wouldn't have tried it. But since it will never need re-galvanizing, I'll probably take it with me to the next boat.
-- no relation to the company
Carl
The strength argument is nonsense. The cross sections of the the Ultra are more than strong enough in stainless. My 3/8" HT chain is much weaker. It is my primary anchor. I've sat through 50 knot storms with no dragging. The design is very similar to a Spade. A great anchor itself.
The Supreme has a well deserved reputation but I think the weighted tip of the Ultra makes it set - and more importantly, reset after a wind change - even more reliably than the Supreme in hard and grass bottoms. The smooth stainless and no hoop also seems to bring less mud up.
The biggest negative of the Ultra is cost. If I hadn't had the bowsprit issue, I probably wouldn't have tried it. But since it will never need re-galvanizing, I'll probably take it with me to the next boat.
-- no relation to the company
Carl
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