River Sailing

rgranger · Apr 30, 2018

I'm no river rat expert but my first thought is that a Catalina 22' will only make about 6 mph in ideal conditions so lets call it 4 mph for analysis purposes. If you are going to sail down stream, the best time you could make up stream is about 1.5 mph. You don't want to go downstream very far if you need to make port at any particular time. You might want to see how fast your 8hp will move your boat before you hit hull speed and then do the math.

LeslieTroyer · Apr 30, 2018

I did quite a bit on both Columbia and Snake rivers. It can be very frustrating tacking cross the current. Depending on wind direction you can have very long tacks in one direction and loose half of the gain tacking back the other direction. Current also screws with apparent wind so don’t expect symmetrical tacks based on true wind

Hardest thing is when do you start the outboard to keep from demasting on the down stream bridge. If docking in river current always tie off the upstream line first.

Les

Gunni · Apr 30, 2018

So you save dessert for last. On departure you sail upwind, practicing your tacking and pointing skills. When you wear yourself out you turn and come back downwind avoiding the use of your little stinker until it is time to take down the sails.

River winds tend to follow the course of the river so you will be challenged by pretty fluky wind directions with the meander of the river. But if you master the river the big water is easier. Monitor your weather radio for small craft warnings and remember that cold sweet water can kill and sink a man fast. PFD and radio on your person.

walt · Apr 30, 2018

Already mentioned.. what ever your boat speed is, your speed over ground is simply added or subtracted from the current depending on direction. Current tends to speed up as the river narrows or gets shallower.. Current tends to be higher on the outside of a bend, less on the inside.

I often sail the lower Colorado river with currents ranging from 1 to maybe 5 mph. No big deal, actually makes for a more interesting sail. We often plan for a many mile down wind, down river sail like in the picture below.

Johnb · Apr 30, 2018

We had a 23 foot Clipper Marine with 10 HP Honda on the San Joaquin and Sacramento rivers for 15 years. They are tidal (all the way to Sacramento) so we always just started out going in whatever direction the current was going because I would rather be fighting the wind than the current. When both were against us and we had to go somewhere it was time to fire up the motor. Expect to do a lot of that. Sometimes we could be doing well on a beam reach till we came opposite a tree on the upwind bank and there you could sit forever, or until the tide changes.

Conclusion is, a reliable motor and a suitable anchor are essential.

Joe2954 · Apr 30, 2018

Have sailed the Columbia River for almost 30 years in 22 to 34 ft boats. Luckily summer winds are usually northerly - opposite the normal current. So I sail downriver/upwind, then turn around, pole out the genoa and fight the current back. Summer low water does reverse the flow, so I watch the tides, since I prefer backing into my slip against the current. I have found hugging the shoreline will reduce the current quite a bit.

williamtl · May 5, 2018

I’ve been considering sailing on the Ohio as well, but more upstream, near Warsaw, KY. Last summer on a friends motor boat I realized the Ohio there is wider than the lake I keep the boat at the majority of the time.

I think the “normal” conditions for the OP and I are going to be south west wind which will be directly against the current. Note however that transiting the Ohio from Warsaw, KY to Cincinnati, Oh, your compass will hit all 360 degrees.

Another obstacle that hasn’t been mentioned is that there are multiple dams for flood control, river depth control, and hydro electric.

walt · May 5, 2018

Dams.. they sometimes release water based on electrical demands which ends up being somewhat like tides and related currents that you can not predict.

Story I heard.. a couple took a small power boat up the black canyon of the Colorado river (same place as my picture was taken a few posts back) and beached the boat, then hiked about 1/8 mile to a natural hot springs where they took a soak. When they returned to the boat it was gone. The hot springs is just a few miles below Boulder Dam and there must have been some sort "impulse demand". This was back in the days when you had to take responsibility for yourself so they had to go back and spend the night in the hot springs (winter nights in the desert still get very chilly). Next day they hitched a ride on a passing boat to the next downriver spot about 8 miles away where their boat had been recovered..

Will Gilmore · May 5, 2018

gcarmack14 said:
what are the worst conditions you'd consider setting sail under?

I have no experience sailing rivers other than the occasional restricted pass as the tides ran in or out. I have kayaked and canoed lots of rivers. For me, what would stop me would be an uncharted shore and bottom. River depth varies and can change while you are on it. If the waters are poorly charted and such changes are likely, that would be a no thank you. Otherwise, I'd have to either expect to be able to out sail or out motor the current if I wanted to return to where I started. Sailing downstream to a pickup with a trailer doesn't seem that bad either.

Even a fast river may have its slow track, so best advice, get to know the water you are sailing in.

- Will (Dragonfly)

walt · May 5, 2018

and beached the boat, then hiked about 1/8 mile to a natural hot springs

I happen to have a picture of the beach in the Black Canyon on the Colorado river from the post a couple back

Crazy Dave Condon · May 6, 2018

As a former dealer who introduced the wing keel version of your boat, you have an 8 hp which should be enough for this boat. Although others chime in, concentrate on your immediate area. Look at where the wind blows and remember wind blows over the trees and hills. The biggest concern is to watch ou for the barge traffic staying out of there way. Although under sail gives you some advantages to right of way , the barge traffic is moving faster than you and in many cases have the right of way in a designated channels and cannot turn on a dime

williamtl · May 7, 2018

The Ohio is well charted and books are available. The P.O. threw in a book with the sale of the boat.

The Ohio is not near as cool as the Colorado. Given all of the barge traffic I doubt there are unscheduled releases.

Great pic @walt

ToddS · May 8, 2018

I second the suggestion from @Gunni to go upstream first... at least in the early days/attempts when you're not accustomed to how well this will work, If you sail for hours upstream, and it only takes you minutes to come back... you'll know in the future you don't want to venture too far down if you expect to make it back in time by a specific time. I don't sail in rivers, but I do frequently deal with tidal currents... I'm right near Woods Hole, MA. Woods Hole at its worst is much stronger than the current you describe (5 or 6 knot current is very normal there), but it also reverses a couple times a day with the tides... so if you can't fight it, you can always wait a while, and then have the current push you back the other way. For one reason or another, I've sailed through this stretch both with and against strong currents. My boat does 6.5kts, and against a 6 knot current takes 2 hours to go a single mile. That same mile can be done in less than 5 minutes with the current from astern. Both scenarios (0.5 knots, and 12.5 knots) are unnerving once you factor in narrow, winding channels with commercial traffic, boat wakes, and fairly unpredictable weather..

Joe Blizzard · May 9, 2018

gcarmack14 said:
To all the tenured river rats out there, what are the worst conditions you'd consider setting sail under? Max current, max winds, etc.

I've been sailing on the Kanawha River, an Ohio tributary, for about ten years. Most of the time there's almost no current in my stretch of river and any breeze at all will easily carry me upstream. If the current and/or the wind is really up, I generally don't go out. (I don't have MPH figures for that, I just know it when I see it) It's not that I feel particularly imperiled under those conditions, it's just that the sailing isn't much fun. When I'm out there struggling to make any headway, borderline under control, and I see the nose of a barge tow peeking around the bend, that's when I start feeling a little imperiled.

Joe Blizzard · May 9, 2018

Joe Blizzard said:
MPH figures for that

According to the USGS stream gauge, the Kanawha is running at 3.54 FPS in Charleston right now, which would make it about 2.4 MPH if my math is right, and it doesn't look like anything I'd be afraid to go out in. A couple days ago it peaked at about 3.5 MPH, and at that time it looked like more than I'd want to deal with.

Will Gilmore · May 10, 2018

Crazy Dave Condon said:
The biggest concern is to watch ou for the barge traffic staying out of there way. Although under sail gives you some advantages to right of way , the barge traffic is moving faster than you and in many cases have the right of way in a designated channels and cannot turn on a dime

I sat on the bend of the Mississippi in the French Quarter of New Orleans and watch a rug and row of barges nearly miss making the bend. Three captain must have radio'd someone because two tugs on the seawall he was about to crash into came alive, expertly maneuvered and pushed the nose of those barges around and helped redirect to continue their way around the bend. What a show of seamanship

.
My wife and I watched hours of barge traffic fore around that bend. Current, mass and desiel power all working in syncopation, sometimes together, sometimes against eachother. If the tugboat captain didn't anticipate the turn early enough, maybe a mile ahead, he wouldn't male the turn. We could see them start rotating the string of barges shortly after they came into view. By the time they got down to us, they were nearly broadside to the river. Then, they made it. In my opinion. A loaded string of barges, even one barge with a tugboat, has right of way. There is no way they can maneuver around an uncharted object who's heading they can't anticipate a mile in advance.

- Will (Dragonfly)

Crazy Dave Condon · May 10, 2018

@Joe Blizzard
Do you recognize this? Beginning of the Kanawa

Jackdaw · May 10, 2018

Will Gilmore said:
In my opinion. A loaded string of barges, even one barge with a tugboat, has right of way. There is no way they can maneuver around an uncharted object who's heading they can't anticipate a mile in advance.

Pretty much at the top.

williamtl · May 10, 2018

Will Gilmore said:
A loaded string of barges, even one barge with a tugboat, has right of way.

- Will (Dragonfly)

[emphasis added]

And if I remember correctly this is the one instance in the col regs where they do use R.O.W.

Oh, no he didn’t. It’s been a good thread. Have a sailing weekend all.