This is in reference to the thread on boom kickers. My personal preference for a vang is the Garhauer Rigid Vang. I have seen them manufactured at the Garhauer plant, have sold and installed them when I lived in So Ca but more importantly I've used them extensively. It was mentioned they are stiff but that is the way a boom vang is suppossed to be. Mine was not stiff enough for me so I went so far as to remove the normal springs and I installed a stiffer set of Garhauer springs. I would stack the Garhauer Rigid Vang against any other vang competitiors or different vang products and from a performance standpoint there is none better. There may be some as good as but in my opinion none are better. Additionally, all Garhauer products carry a 10 year guarantee and are very resonably priced. If any of you forum lister are interested in contacting Garhauer about their product ask for Mark or Guido and tell them Don Guillette from the Sail Trim Forum told you to call them. Please tell them I said hello. They will take excellent care of you.
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but don, what about us guys with newer boats that came - happily - with dutchman rigging? i don't see any reason to get a ridid vang if we have a permanent topping lift in the dutchman line, do you?
topping lift vs rigid vang
A topping lift and Dutchman cannot do what a rigid vang can do. The topping lift is fine for reefing and dousing the sail but not so good for sail trim. To take the weight of the boom off the leach of the sail in light air, a Dutchman/topping lift setup prevents the twist you are trying to put in the sail. A topping lift without the Dutchman works, but a rigid vang does the best job.
A topping lift and Dutchman cannot do what a rigid vang can do. The topping lift is fine for reefing and dousing the sail but not so good for sail trim. To take the weight of the boom off the leach of the sail in light air, a Dutchman/topping lift setup prevents the twist you are trying to put in the sail. A topping lift without the Dutchman works, but a rigid vang does the best job.
Vang/Dutchman
Although I did not buy my boat new, it came from the factory with a rigid vang and a Dutchman...works great.
Although I did not buy my boat new, it came from the factory with a rigid vang and a Dutchman...works great.
Dutchman
Mortyd: Isn't a Dutchman a type of mainsail flaking system? Now Mortyd comparing the topping lift to the vang - it is back the The Sail Trim Users Guide for you!! Your homework for tonight is to review the section on mainsail boom vang!!
Mortyd: Isn't a Dutchman a type of mainsail flaking system? Now Mortyd comparing the topping lift to the vang - it is back the The Sail Trim Users Guide for you!! Your homework for tonight is to review the section on mainsail boom vang!!
The Duchman does effect sail trim
The Dutchman system does indeed effect sail trim. it works like this. Say you want to take some of the load off the boom to make the mainsail fuller, you tigthen up on the topping lift which rases the boom and wa-la a fuller sail. Except that the Dutchman is now tight also and has put a serious strain on the sail distorting it into a monstrous thing that looks like it is going to tear itself apart. And just forget reefing sail control. I guess my problem is I take my sails down for maintance once in a while and unless you get the boom height, topping lift tension and Dutchman lines JUST RIGHT the sucker just don't work. Either the dutchman hangs up the sail trim or the dutchman just don't work as a sail flaking system. Don't get me started on chafe. For the extra hassel it just is not worth it to me. I'm sticking to lazyjacks.
The Dutchman system does indeed effect sail trim. it works like this. Say you want to take some of the load off the boom to make the mainsail fuller, you tigthen up on the topping lift which rases the boom and wa-la a fuller sail. Except that the Dutchman is now tight also and has put a serious strain on the sail distorting it into a monstrous thing that looks like it is going to tear itself apart. And just forget reefing sail control. I guess my problem is I take my sails down for maintance once in a while and unless you get the boom height, topping lift tension and Dutchman lines JUST RIGHT the sucker just don't work. Either the dutchman hangs up the sail trim or the dutchman just don't work as a sail flaking system. Don't get me started on chafe. For the extra hassel it just is not worth it to me. I'm sticking to lazyjacks.
huh, don. i know the difference, but since the dutchman acts as a permanent topping lift i guess it elimantes at least part of the reason to spend money on a solid vang. as for the others here, loosening the dutchman once the main has been hauled up and tightening it before you flake is a very simple procedure. is the dutchman absolutely perfect? no. is it great? yes.
Topping Lift
Mortyd: I wasn't going to answer this and just let it slide because I love you like a brother but I have to correct the situation and give the forum listers enough info so they can make a decision as to which way they should proceed. With the data from both of us they can then do what they want. A topping lift (or a dutchman acting like a topping lift)is not a sail trim control. It's only use is to hold up the boom when the sail is flaked. In very light winds and only in very light winds you could crank on the topping lift slightly to pull up the boom which would add a little bit of shape to the main. My rigid boom vang was set so that the at rest position of the boom with the main raised was 10 degrees above horizontal. So when I raised the main I already was in a very light air position, which I rarely sailed in, so my first step was to crank the vang down to horizontal or below horizontal. If the wind became very light I would relase the vang and the boom would go to 10 degrees above horizontal. To be honest, I never noticed much of an increase in performance when I did that but how much performance can you get in very light wind anyway. The boom vang controls 2 out of the 4 elements of sail trim and they are draft position and twist and therefore it is a very important sail trim control. It fact, it is one of the most important ones on the boat. You can only adjust twist in the mainsail with two controls and they are the mainsheet and the boom vang. To get twist right it is near impossable to do it with only the mainsheet. The boom vang is also a key control for adjusting draft position. Based on the above info, the topping lift (or Dutchman)is not a substitute for a boom vang. Additionally, a rigid vang is much more efficient and easier to deal with than a soft vang. For one thing, you get too much boom bounce with the soft vang. If anyone buys a rigid vang don't discard the soft vang - use it as a mainsail Cunningham.
Mortyd: I wasn't going to answer this and just let it slide because I love you like a brother but I have to correct the situation and give the forum listers enough info so they can make a decision as to which way they should proceed. With the data from both of us they can then do what they want. A topping lift (or a dutchman acting like a topping lift)is not a sail trim control. It's only use is to hold up the boom when the sail is flaked. In very light winds and only in very light winds you could crank on the topping lift slightly to pull up the boom which would add a little bit of shape to the main. My rigid boom vang was set so that the at rest position of the boom with the main raised was 10 degrees above horizontal. So when I raised the main I already was in a very light air position, which I rarely sailed in, so my first step was to crank the vang down to horizontal or below horizontal. If the wind became very light I would relase the vang and the boom would go to 10 degrees above horizontal. To be honest, I never noticed much of an increase in performance when I did that but how much performance can you get in very light wind anyway. The boom vang controls 2 out of the 4 elements of sail trim and they are draft position and twist and therefore it is a very important sail trim control. It fact, it is one of the most important ones on the boat. You can only adjust twist in the mainsail with two controls and they are the mainsheet and the boom vang. To get twist right it is near impossable to do it with only the mainsheet. The boom vang is also a key control for adjusting draft position. Based on the above info, the topping lift (or Dutchman)is not a substitute for a boom vang. Additionally, a rigid vang is much more efficient and easier to deal with than a soft vang. For one thing, you get too much boom bounce with the soft vang. If anyone buys a rigid vang don't discard the soft vang - use it as a mainsail Cunningham.
by the way, don, i think it add's greatly to sailing to understand sail trim and getting performance, but i think it ads even more when you get caught in a thunderstorm - we all have/will - and instantly get down to bare poles with a dutchman. between safety and speed, i'll go for safety every time, which is why i'm an old pilot.
topping lift comment
Don.... if you use the topping lift to hold the boom up in light air... aren't you controlling the shape of the sail... and doesn't that make it a sail control (albeit a minor one) If lifting the boom isn't important why would you set up your rigid vang to rest at 10 degrees above horizontal. And if one didn't have a rigid vang why wouldn't one use the topping lift to help keep the boom in position, thus making it a minor sail control? The topping lift is a bonafide nuisance, especially with a full leech main. The rigid vang solves the frustration of coordinating the soft vang and topping lift adjustments.
Don.... if you use the topping lift to hold the boom up in light air... aren't you controlling the shape of the sail... and doesn't that make it a sail control (albeit a minor one) If lifting the boom isn't important why would you set up your rigid vang to rest at 10 degrees above horizontal. And if one didn't have a rigid vang why wouldn't one use the topping lift to help keep the boom in position, thus making it a minor sail control? The topping lift is a bonafide nuisance, especially with a full leech main. The rigid vang solves the frustration of coordinating the soft vang and topping lift adjustments.
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