This happened sunday and I am not asking if the guy was a jerk but who legally has the right of way. The wind was out of the northwest about 8 miles per hr. I was sailing up and following the south shore line about 30 degrees to the wind with the main only and on a starboard tack. Another boat was trailing me about 50 yards back also starboard tack but with a slight angle, probably 45 degrees to the wind . We came to an island with trees, about 50 yards off shore, with a cut but to make it I would have to sail about 20 degrees to the wind. I understand I waited to long to tack but when I ran out of room and had to tack the trees on the island took my wind and I could not come about fully but enough to be considered to be on port tack. The other boat kept coming and would have broadsided me so I went back to my origional direction to try for the cut. That is when I found how clost to the wind to try to sail and grounded on a sand bar. As soon as I grounded the other boat tacked and took off. The other boat was sailing with a main and jib so he was catching me pretty fast and was gone before I got off sandbar. In retrospect when I tried to tack , I should have just sit there and let him hit me or tack me and if he hit me at least I could got my hands on him or got the name of his boat. There is not doubt it was intentional but what are the rules of the road.
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From the sounds of it...
Sounds like you had the right of way as the other boat was overtaking you. As long as the other boat was off your stern, he or she was overtaking. If I may quote: "When in any doubt as to whether another vessel is being overtaken, the assumption shall be made that this is the case and the overtaking vessel shall act accordingly". Lets continue, "Any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of thses regulations or relieve the overtaking vessel of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until past and clear". Either way, the rules say that whomever has rights, both boats will do whatever means necessary to avoid a collision. I got the info out of the Colorado Regs. I think the Federal Regs say pretty much the same thing. Regards, Clayton
Sounds like you had the right of way as the other boat was overtaking you. As long as the other boat was off your stern, he or she was overtaking. If I may quote: "When in any doubt as to whether another vessel is being overtaken, the assumption shall be made that this is the case and the overtaking vessel shall act accordingly". Lets continue, "Any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of thses regulations or relieve the overtaking vessel of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until past and clear". Either way, the rules say that whomever has rights, both boats will do whatever means necessary to avoid a collision. I got the info out of the Colorado Regs. I think the Federal Regs say pretty much the same thing. Regards, Clayton
Rule 1: Avoid Collision!
You mastered Rule 1! Rule 2: Sail defensively. Assume your fellow boaters aren't versed in boating etiquette.
You mastered Rule 1! Rule 2: Sail defensively. Assume your fellow boaters aren't versed in boating etiquette.
Same Tack Right of Way
Some of your wind angle info is confusing, bur really not an issue. Basically when you were both on starboard and you were clear ahead, the boat astern needed to keep clear. However, as soon as you tacked and presumably went head to wind, you were on port tack and he now actually had right of way. He would still have needed to avoid a collision, and presumably was able to do so by bearing off onto a reach, (still on starboard?) If you tacked back onto starboard, you would have still have been obligated to give him enough time to keep clear. Inland Rules or racing rules aside, at least you both managed to avoid a colision. Next time make your decision earlier and/or hail the other boat to let him know your concern.
Some of your wind angle info is confusing, bur really not an issue. Basically when you were both on starboard and you were clear ahead, the boat astern needed to keep clear. However, as soon as you tacked and presumably went head to wind, you were on port tack and he now actually had right of way. He would still have needed to avoid a collision, and presumably was able to do so by bearing off onto a reach, (still on starboard?) If you tacked back onto starboard, you would have still have been obligated to give him enough time to keep clear. Inland Rules or racing rules aside, at least you both managed to avoid a colision. Next time make your decision earlier and/or hail the other boat to let him know your concern.
One more Right Of Way Rule
There is one more rule that applies here - a vessel's ultimate right to remain clear of obstructions. By hailing the other vessel and informing him of your need for room (this includes avoiding sandbars, land, bouys, markers,etc) he must immediately heed your request and give way, regardless of port/starboard or windard/leeward rules. You had the ultimate right-of-way had you called for room. Make your calls early and sail safely.
There is one more rule that applies here - a vessel's ultimate right to remain clear of obstructions. By hailing the other vessel and informing him of your need for room (this includes avoiding sandbars, land, bouys, markers,etc) he must immediately heed your request and give way, regardless of port/starboard or windard/leeward rules. You had the ultimate right-of-way had you called for room. Make your calls early and sail safely.
No such thing as right of way
The words "right," and "right of way" do not appear anywhere in any of the Rules because no vessel has any rights, only obligations. Under the Rules, a vessel is obligated to stand on or is obligated to give way...and is sometimes obligated by the Rules to give way even when he should have been stand-on in order to avoid a collision with a vessel that failed to meet its own obligation to either stand on/maintain course and speed or give way when he should have. It's a fine point, but a very important one..because understanding it shifts your focus from expecting something from another vessel to your own responsibility to avoid him no matter what he does.
The words "right," and "right of way" do not appear anywhere in any of the Rules because no vessel has any rights, only obligations. Under the Rules, a vessel is obligated to stand on or is obligated to give way...and is sometimes obligated by the Rules to give way even when he should have been stand-on in order to avoid a collision with a vessel that failed to meet its own obligation to either stand on/maintain course and speed or give way when he should have. It's a fine point, but a very important one..because understanding it shifts your focus from expecting something from another vessel to your own responsibility to avoid him no matter what he does.
Racing or Cruising?
Rules of racing are a bit more specific than the nav rules, but the obstruction was the overriding factor. If no obstruction, the the windward boat (you) avoids the leeward boat on the same tack. That means that you cannot perform any radical course changes that cause the leeward boat to change course to avoid you. Pretty much the same as rules of the road in an overtaking situation. With the obstruction, a hail for room puts the burden on the leeward boat. He has to hail back and allow you room. But even with rules, there are "dinks" that do things on the water to cause problems. They use the same rules as excuses for their "right" to be a dink. Your best bet is to assume a "dink" is out there and try not to be put in bad situations. Steve
Rules of racing are a bit more specific than the nav rules, but the obstruction was the overriding factor. If no obstruction, the the windward boat (you) avoids the leeward boat on the same tack. That means that you cannot perform any radical course changes that cause the leeward boat to change course to avoid you. Pretty much the same as rules of the road in an overtaking situation. With the obstruction, a hail for room puts the burden on the leeward boat. He has to hail back and allow you room. But even with rules, there are "dinks" that do things on the water to cause problems. They use the same rules as excuses for their "right" to be a dink. Your best bet is to assume a "dink" is out there and try not to be put in bad situations. Steve
Really?
S. Sauer wrote the 'boat astern needed to keep clear' I'm a bit confused. I thought that, if both boats were on the same tack, the leeward boat had the 'right of way'(In quotes in deference to Peggy''s comments). So I think it really depends on their relative position. My understanding is that if both boats maintained their course and and the boat astern would strike to the leeward side of the boat ahead, the boat astern has the 'ROW'. If the boat astern would end up striking the windward side of the boat ahead, the boat ahead has the 'ROW'. I've attached a link that seems to support this. Am I missing something? Of course, avoiding a collision is the overriding rule.
S. Sauer wrote the 'boat astern needed to keep clear' I'm a bit confused. I thought that, if both boats were on the same tack, the leeward boat had the 'right of way'(In quotes in deference to Peggy''s comments). So I think it really depends on their relative position. My understanding is that if both boats maintained their course and and the boat astern would strike to the leeward side of the boat ahead, the boat astern has the 'ROW'. If the boat astern would end up striking the windward side of the boat ahead, the boat ahead has the 'ROW'. I've attached a link that seems to support this. Am I missing something? Of course, avoiding a collision is the overriding rule.
Dave wrote ...
... "assume the other boater is not versed in boating etiquette." Best comment in these posts. I know the basics of both inland boating rules and racing rules, but I've given up trying to follow them, especially on the weekend. Rules assume the other person knows and obeys them, and that just is not a valid assumption anymore. These days, sailing defensively and watching/anticipating well ahead is the only thing that keeps me safe. And after Sunday afternoon, I'm considering making a life jacket mandatory wearing for anyone on my boat on the weekend. The possibility of collision just keeps increasing. Tom Monroe Carlyle Lake
... "assume the other boater is not versed in boating etiquette." Best comment in these posts. I know the basics of both inland boating rules and racing rules, but I've given up trying to follow them, especially on the weekend. Rules assume the other person knows and obeys them, and that just is not a valid assumption anymore. These days, sailing defensively and watching/anticipating well ahead is the only thing that keeps me safe. And after Sunday afternoon, I'm considering making a life jacket mandatory wearing for anyone on my boat on the weekend. The possibility of collision just keeps increasing. Tom Monroe Carlyle Lake
Legally
I have many lawyers as clients and have asked them about these type of situations. In the case a collision does occur both boats are found to be partially liable most of the time irregardless of ROW. Peggy is right and the USCG supports this. No one has ROW. It is merely stand on or give way. Here is one I faced this weekend. I was on a port tack and an approaching sailboat was on Starboard tack. We were on a collision course and there was plenty of water and depth. I made an obvious move to bear off and a few minutes later the approaching boat also bore off forcing me to tack to avoid a collision. If I am correct the regs state that once a boat makes an obvious course change to "give way" the stand on boat must remain on it's present course. The only reason I can think of why this guy did this was he was a jerk and was asserting what he thought were his rights to do whatever he wanted because he was on the starboard tack. Of course his boat was about 20 feet longer then mine so I was happy to tack and sail away from him. He may have a bigger boat but my wife smoked his! And it's usually her idea to go sailing. Tim
I have many lawyers as clients and have asked them about these type of situations. In the case a collision does occur both boats are found to be partially liable most of the time irregardless of ROW. Peggy is right and the USCG supports this. No one has ROW. It is merely stand on or give way. Here is one I faced this weekend. I was on a port tack and an approaching sailboat was on Starboard tack. We were on a collision course and there was plenty of water and depth. I made an obvious move to bear off and a few minutes later the approaching boat also bore off forcing me to tack to avoid a collision. If I am correct the regs state that once a boat makes an obvious course change to "give way" the stand on boat must remain on it's present course. The only reason I can think of why this guy did this was he was a jerk and was asserting what he thought were his rights to do whatever he wanted because he was on the starboard tack. Of course his boat was about 20 feet longer then mine so I was happy to tack and sail away from him. He may have a bigger boat but my wife smoked his! And it's usually her idea to go sailing. Tim
Interesting, however...
Your response was dead on with respect to "ROW", but when you resorted to the "my wife smokes his wife" argument you lost me. What would you have done or said if his wife "smoked yours?" I suggest you go back to kindergarden and pay more attention to the activities where you're supposed to "learn to play with others". ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
Your response was dead on with respect to "ROW", but when you resorted to the "my wife smokes his wife" argument you lost me. What would you have done or said if his wife "smoked yours?" I suggest you go back to kindergarden and pay more attention to the activities where you're supposed to "learn to play with others". ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
Ed....
....I could be wrong, but I think Tim was only trying to inject some humor into a less than perfect situation. Now, maybe kindergarten could be suggested for many of us - myself included for chastising you.
....I could be wrong, but I think Tim was only trying to inject some humor into a less than perfect situation. Now, maybe kindergarten could be suggested for many of us - myself included for chastising you.
Yeah, I should have let it go, but
His comment didn't sound too PC. So unless a corrective remark was made, some lady readers might think we (guys) all think what he said was "ok". I too have to be reminded occasionally to "lighten-up". :^( ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
His comment didn't sound too PC. So unless a corrective remark was made, some lady readers might think we (guys) all think what he said was "ok". I too have to be reminded occasionally to "lighten-up". :^( ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
Interpretation & Obligations
Whenever a give way vessel is required to alter course for a stand on vessel she has the right to expect the stand on vessel to maintain her course and speed. This applies to all sintuations including P & S and overtaking. You tacked thus complicating the situation. Best procedure would have been to holler "Bl**dy Shallow just here" or words to same effect, then he would have understood. In reality he was probably just being competitive and "Standing on His Rights". If so he was the jerk just as you described. We meet them all the time. Forget it - life's too short.
Whenever a give way vessel is required to alter course for a stand on vessel she has the right to expect the stand on vessel to maintain her course and speed. This applies to all sintuations including P & S and overtaking. You tacked thus complicating the situation. Best procedure would have been to holler "Bl**dy Shallow just here" or words to same effect, then he would have understood. In reality he was probably just being competitive and "Standing on His Rights". If so he was the jerk just as you described. We meet them all the time. Forget it - life's too short.
Appology
I was not intending to offend anyone. My point was that money can't buy happiness. My wife actually thought it was funny and the intent was to suggest that my wife is an awesome sailor. She was at the tiller when the incident occurred. Again my appologies. Tim
I was not intending to offend anyone. My point was that money can't buy happiness. My wife actually thought it was funny and the intent was to suggest that my wife is an awesome sailor. She was at the tiller when the incident occurred. Again my appologies. Tim
Rules of the Road?
I've been sailing on and off in San Diego for a long time, and have yet to see a single instance of boaters abiding by COLREGS. The only rule I've had to use is Rule 1. The most egregious situation was when I dead in the water, no wind, motor broke, and drifting with the current when a sailboat under power altered their course to deliberately hit me. I witnessed a huge gin palace roar through a Sea Scout sailing dinghy regatta at over 20 knots in a 5 knot, no wake zone. I'm sure somewhere, some people in San Diego obey COLREGS, but in 20 years of sailing, I have yet to see them.
I've been sailing on and off in San Diego for a long time, and have yet to see a single instance of boaters abiding by COLREGS. The only rule I've had to use is Rule 1. The most egregious situation was when I dead in the water, no wind, motor broke, and drifting with the current when a sailboat under power altered their course to deliberately hit me. I witnessed a huge gin palace roar through a Sea Scout sailing dinghy regatta at over 20 knots in a 5 knot, no wake zone. I'm sure somewhere, some people in San Diego obey COLREGS, but in 20 years of sailing, I have yet to see them.
I REALLY hate to ask this...but...
"...The most egregious situation was when I dead in the water, no wind, motor broke, and drifting with the current..." Why didn't you put an anchor down?
"...The most egregious situation was when I dead in the water, no wind, motor broke, and drifting with the current..." Why didn't you put an anchor down?
No win situation
The general seamanship rule has been that the vessel with the least amount of maneuvering capability is the stand-on vessel. The least amount of maneuvering capability can be based on draft available, power configuration (motor, sail or human powered), fishing, towing, etc. Per Inland rule 8 Action to Avoid a Collision, the other sailboat should have given you sufficient sea room in which to maneuver if he knew that you where near shallow waters (draft available). When the trees blocked your wind when you tried to tack and you couldn't come about fully, you then went back to a starboard tack and tried to continue a close haul. You could have continued bearing away and gone into a run and back tracked your course to avoid the shallow water and passed behind the other sailboat and then resume your course. Sometime discretion is the better part of valor. When you were trying to come about, you could have blown your horn 5 short blasts (Inland rule 34) to signal the other sailboat that you couldn’t avoid a collision by maneuvering out of his way. You were essentially dead in the water because of the trees blocking your wind and it would have taken time to start your auxiliary engine. The other sailboat would then have been aware of the imminent collision and tacked to avoid a collision. Sometimes you have to choose between the lesser of two evils, running aground or colliding with another sailboat, always choose the lesser of the damages and injury. As a last resort, if you are about to have a collision, a bow on bow collision is better than having the other guy’s bow hitting you amidships. It doesn't matter who was right and who was wrong, as long as no one got hurt and we learn from our misadventures. You at least avoided a collision, some boats aren't as lucky. Fair Winds Clyde
The general seamanship rule has been that the vessel with the least amount of maneuvering capability is the stand-on vessel. The least amount of maneuvering capability can be based on draft available, power configuration (motor, sail or human powered), fishing, towing, etc. Per Inland rule 8 Action to Avoid a Collision, the other sailboat should have given you sufficient sea room in which to maneuver if he knew that you where near shallow waters (draft available). When the trees blocked your wind when you tried to tack and you couldn't come about fully, you then went back to a starboard tack and tried to continue a close haul. You could have continued bearing away and gone into a run and back tracked your course to avoid the shallow water and passed behind the other sailboat and then resume your course. Sometime discretion is the better part of valor. When you were trying to come about, you could have blown your horn 5 short blasts (Inland rule 34) to signal the other sailboat that you couldn’t avoid a collision by maneuvering out of his way. You were essentially dead in the water because of the trees blocking your wind and it would have taken time to start your auxiliary engine. The other sailboat would then have been aware of the imminent collision and tacked to avoid a collision. Sometimes you have to choose between the lesser of two evils, running aground or colliding with another sailboat, always choose the lesser of the damages and injury. As a last resort, if you are about to have a collision, a bow on bow collision is better than having the other guy’s bow hitting you amidships. It doesn't matter who was right and who was wrong, as long as no one got hurt and we learn from our misadventures. You at least avoided a collision, some boats aren't as lucky. Fair Winds Clyde
Attachments
Write off 'right of way'
Very interesting forum. My .02 worth: After 27yrs as a pilot (and we REALLY try to avoid collisions up there.!!) the overriding rule has always been taking responsibility to "see and be seen" when in any type of potential conflict situation. Legal and technical interpretations notwithstanding, it's just good common sense to take actions to avoid any kind of contact. Any skipper (or pilot) who blissfully leveraged "right of way" and ignorantly manuvered right into a collision without taking any type of action to avoid would find themselves in a difficult legal situation if it came to that. Another interesting (and experienced) perspective is the many years I enjoyed instructing motorcycle skills through the Motorcycle Safety Foundation. ROW rules apply here also. But ANY time you put a 500lb motorcycle up against a 4000lb car, ROW notwithstanding, the 'cycle is going to lose. Big time. Point is; assume the other guy neither sees you or knows what to do.Why rely on HIM for YOUR safety.?????
Very interesting forum. My .02 worth: After 27yrs as a pilot (and we REALLY try to avoid collisions up there.!!) the overriding rule has always been taking responsibility to "see and be seen" when in any type of potential conflict situation. Legal and technical interpretations notwithstanding, it's just good common sense to take actions to avoid any kind of contact. Any skipper (or pilot) who blissfully leveraged "right of way" and ignorantly manuvered right into a collision without taking any type of action to avoid would find themselves in a difficult legal situation if it came to that. Another interesting (and experienced) perspective is the many years I enjoyed instructing motorcycle skills through the Motorcycle Safety Foundation. ROW rules apply here also. But ANY time you put a 500lb motorcycle up against a 4000lb car, ROW notwithstanding, the 'cycle is going to lose. Big time. Point is; assume the other guy neither sees you or knows what to do.Why rely on HIM for YOUR safety.?????
Good question!
I didn't put the anchor down as I was in the middle of a channel. Both sides of the channel were rocky and had poor holding, and anyway, as long as the current was running fair, I was taking advantage of that. When the current changed, I would have been pushed back out to sea. Calling for a tow was unnecessary as I was heading the right direction, albeit very slowly. In the end, immediately after the collision actually, my daughter got out the oar and rowed us in. She wasn't comfortable with steering the boat into the slip, so she volunteered to row. In fact, she used the oar to fend off the same boat again, as they had come about for another pass. The sailors in the other boat were foreign, and apparently didn't speak English. They never responded either, they actually ignored us and wouldn't even look at either my daughter or me when we yelled at them. They just seemed intent on hitting us. As an afterword, several months later, the marina kicked them out as they had subsequently hit just about every other boat and tender on the dock. As luck would have it, they had a slip on the same dock as me. They never spoke to anybody on the dock, either, and ignored anybody who talked to them.
I didn't put the anchor down as I was in the middle of a channel. Both sides of the channel were rocky and had poor holding, and anyway, as long as the current was running fair, I was taking advantage of that. When the current changed, I would have been pushed back out to sea. Calling for a tow was unnecessary as I was heading the right direction, albeit very slowly. In the end, immediately after the collision actually, my daughter got out the oar and rowed us in. She wasn't comfortable with steering the boat into the slip, so she volunteered to row. In fact, she used the oar to fend off the same boat again, as they had come about for another pass. The sailors in the other boat were foreign, and apparently didn't speak English. They never responded either, they actually ignored us and wouldn't even look at either my daughter or me when we yelled at them. They just seemed intent on hitting us. As an afterword, several months later, the marina kicked them out as they had subsequently hit just about every other boat and tender on the dock. As luck would have it, they had a slip on the same dock as me. They never spoke to anybody on the dock, either, and ignored anybody who talked to them.
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