Rigging for Genoa and forestay

[jimford2158]

Hi all, Can anyone please help with the proper rigging for my sailboat.
When I bought it, the forestay was behind the furled genoa. Whenever I tried
to use the sail it would become wrapped around the mainstay. I moved the
forestay forward of the genoa and it works okay but I was wondering if I
could remove the forestay and just use the genoa cable with the sail as the
main stay as I have seen on others. The rigging has been inspected and is
in good condition. With the sail raised, the genoa steel cable is wrapped
around the winch about 4 turns with the sheet tied off at a cleat, and is very hard to get the sail taut.
Also at this time there is about 2 feet of bare cable at the top of the jib,
should the jib go all the way to the top? I have attached pics and would
be very grateful for any input. Thanks, Jim

 

[Bill Murray]

I am sure some of the other owners of Irwin cutters will chime in but regarding your query .( I was wondering if I could remove the forestay and just use the genoa cable with the sail as the main stay as I have seen on others. ) probably not with your current gear. What your are likely seeing on other boats is a rig that has the forestay INSIDE the foil that the sail attaches too. The forestay still supports the mast - not the sail.
Fair winds

 

[Ed Schenck]

From your third picture it appears to be rigged correctly. What is missing is a jib. The forestay is the forward most wire. Your mid-stay, the one with the furler, has what is called a staysail on a cutter. Same as miine except I do not have a furler on the staysail. With a furler(or not) and jib(called a yankee on a cutter-rig) on the forestay you would be rigged correctly. It does seem that your two stays are awfully close together. And on my cutter the mid-stay(baby stay) is fractional, i.e. does not go to the top of the mast as yours seems to do. You really do need to find another Irwin or hear from someone who has one.

P.S. looking at this link it looks like yours except the mid-stay does not go to the top. And a picture that I found confirms your rig, the stays really are that close together. http://www.boatus.com/jackhornor/sail/Irwin37.asp

 

[Barnacle Bill]

It looks like you have an old Schaefer roller furling, which was built about the time the earth cooled. If you bought a new furler, then you would get one that incorporates a forestay. The aluminum extrusion would rotate around the forestay. The system would work much better and it would be a safe installation. Furlex supplies you with the forestay in the package. Other systems don't and you'd have to have one made up separately. Of course this is a spendier alternative, but you would eliminate wrapping your sail around the forestay, your furling would be improved and you'd have better quality control over the components of the system,etc. You'd have to modify your headsail, however, which is more expense, to retrofit the hanks to a luff tape.

 

[Cayennita]

The Irwin 37 CC was designed as a cutter rig. The head stay on your boat is in the correct place, however your current roller furler even though is ib the right place on deck does not belong at the top of the mast but further down where it would be parallel to the head stay. You can find drawings by googling Irwin 37 CC.
Look at your must about 5' down and you might find an attachment point. It might have been removed or ground off or maybe even if you're lucky it is still there. You will find then that the sail luff will be long enough. Next you need to buy a head sail with a high cut 'Yankee'.

 

[jimford2158]

Re: more pics

Hi again, Thanks Ed for the article by Mr. Hornor, I only disagree on the part about freezer(icebox, engine driven), my bowsprit is teak?, and the handling, it sails very nice and straight and the steering is recabled and tight. On most others I have seen they have the roller furler is on the forestay with the newer rig. Not in the budget right now, but I wish. The drawings show the sail at the very front with no forestay. Originally on mine, the forestay was in front and the furled sail behind it. I do have a staysail and have had it raised, although I doubt if it was correct. I didn't have it on the boom and the whisker pole is still attached to the deck by rusted pins. Yeah I know, I'm working on it. I just had the CR71 trans(heavy bastard) out to fix the leaks. But I'm getting there. Been too darn cold here. I attached 2 more pics with the staysail raised. I really appreciate the help, but I haven't seen one rigged like mine, guess they are all updated or something. My neighbor has a '84 37cc Irwin, but he has the newer roller furler with the aluminum tube like you said. Well, seems to sail ok, so I will keep researching and look for that attachment point on the mast. I've also looked on the Irwin site and posted on Irwin Owners Group, too. Someone will eventually have the exact thing I hope. Thanks, again, spring is right around the corner for you guys. .

 

[RichH]

The Irwin 37 CC was designed as a cutter rig. The head stay on your boat is in the correct place, however your current roller furler even though is ib the right place on deck does not belong at the top of the mast but further down where it would be parallel to the head stay. You can find drawings by googling Irwin 37 CC.
Look at your must about 5' down and you might find an attachment point. It might have been removed or ground off or maybe even if you're lucky it is still there. You will find then that the sail luff will be long enough. Next you need to buy a head sail with a high cut 'Yankee'.

Cayennita is correct.
First some 'teminology' for a cutter rig:
• The front stay is the HEADstay onto which you attach the jib or genoa .... (or 'yankee' - a high clew sail used for heavy weather sailing.)
• The second sail back from the front or 'head'sail is called the FORESTAYSAIL ... shortened to 'staysail' or stays'l ... and the staysail/stays'l/forestaysail is flown on the FORESTAY, the second stay back from the bow ... or the stay thats a'fore the mast.

The HEADstay should be parallel to the FOREstay .... so your rig has either been altered or the current configuration is in error. The forestay should connect a few feet lower from the mast head ... and as Cayennita has stated there should be or 'was' mast hardware to attach the FORESTAY there well below the mast top.
If the current mainsail is to the OEM designers specs./drawings, when the mainsail has been reefed to the 'first' reef position, the top of the mainsail should be more-or-less equal in height to the forestay—to—mast connection on the front of the mast.
Also on many cutter rigged boats of this era there should also be 'intermediate stays' that run from the aft most chainplate (and share the same chainplate with the aft-lower shroud/stay) and should terminate AT near the same posiition of the forestay connection (called 'hounds').

Cutter rigs can be a royal PITA rig to sail until you learn the 'intricacies' of such a rig. So until you learn such 'intricacies' and to 'sharpen your learning-curve' I would suggest that you disconnect the forestay and staysail, store the forestay 'in place' (tie or secure the forestay to the mast - but dont 'kink' the wire) ..... and sail the boat like a sloop !!!!!! Then when you are 'satisfied' with the performance, then reconnect the forestay and staysail.
The 'problem' with cutter rigged boats is that the TWO 'front' stays (headstay and Forestay) react with a single backstay and under differing wind wave conditions you will have variable stretch/tension in the two 'front' stays ... and typically the longer 'headstay' will be more 'slack' than the forestay --- NOT good!. A slack headstay will interfere with or lessen the 'pointing ability', will promote excess heeling and the boat will tend to 'skid to leeward' instead of going 'straight' when beating.
Hint: When sailing, especially when beating and with main/stays'l/genoa flying, the Headstay should always be 'tighter' than the Forestay ... and unless sailing in 'heavy weather' (when the jib/genoa is normally 'doused' & flying only the stays'l + main) the forestay should be fairly 'slack' (about 7-10% tension if you use a rig tension gage; the headstay near 15+%). The forestay tension should be increased when flying 'only' the staysail and with the headsail 'doused'/furled.

Suggest you sail the boat 'like a sloop' (Genoa/Main only) until you are well used to the boat. You can at any time attach the forestay/stays'l when you are reefed. This will save a lot of 'pain', especially in 'light' winds when the genoa/jib has to pass between the headstay and forestay when tacking .... as usually the jib/genoa tends to get fouled when trying to pass between the headstay and forestay when sailing in light winds.

A 'true' cutter will have the mast at 50% LOD (length on deck) distance back from the bow; a sloop will have its mast about 30% back from the bow, an Irwin 37 will have its mast somewhere between, so you can easily sail the Irwin37 .... just like a 'sloop' and still get 'good helm balance'.

Hints on sailing a 'cutter rig': http://www.arvelgentry.com/magaz/The_Double_Head_Rig.pdf

 

[jimford2158]

Ok, I looked at most of the 37s' for sale and found 3 configurations. Mine does not have the forestay, I had run one of the other cables(there are 4), just to see the staysail in operation. Some had the genoa on the headstay. Some had the headstay all the way forward with the Genoa on it's own about 6-8 inches behind and almost parallel to the headstay connecting to the top of the mast. And then some had the Genoa/headstay with the forestay behind it and attached lower on the mast.
I have been sailing with the mainsail and the Genoa raised and I have been out in up to 20 nauts plus so I am fairly confident with that. I am a careful boater so I don't push things to far, just need more experience. I will leave everything the way it is now except I need to get the Genoa(not on headstay) cable tighter. Which I think may be too long, since the cable(part of cable/line splice) has to go around the winch and then the rope/line is tied off to a cleat. Thanks for your help.

 

[RichH]

Here's an 'article' I did that relates 'how tight' a headstay and/or forestay should actually be. BTW - Your STAYSAIL looks like figure #2 below --- luff tension is TOOOOOOO loose:

You may need to increase your SCREEN MAGNIFICATION LEVEL of your PC to be able to read the following.

© R. Hampel 2007

 

[jimford2158]

Thanks Rich, that's a great article, and since I need to take the sail in for some repair, I will be able to check the 'luff hollow'. They are right about the 'excess weather helm' and I figured it had something to do with the rigging. I am just having a tough time getting the sail taut since the metal cable is wrapped around the winch. Maybe try some tape or cloth around it first, I guess. I didn't see a fitting for a forestay on the mast, either. I'll worry about that later since I keep the staysail folded up in a locker belowdecks. I have tried 'reefing' the genoa and it seemed to work ok. So, right now, I have the 'headstay' and the 'backstay' tight and the 'genoa', which is behind the 'headstay' is loose(which will be tightened). Ok, so do I now need any bend in the mast while the sails are not raised?

 

[RichH]

I dont remember if the Irwin 37 has one or two sets of spreaders, so .....

For a single spreader rig add 3/4" 'forward bow' to the mast ..... and for a double spreader rig add 1" (total) forward bow. This is called 'prebend' and will stop/lessen the mast from 'vibrating' or 'pumping' ... AND will allow the sail to 'set' with less draft.
First set the headstay & backstay and 'cap shrouds' (~15%); then, set the lower shrouds to ~15% tension ... and then loosen the aft lowers while adding tension to the fore lowers ... do this in small increments with the lowers while holding your eyeball to sight along the boltrope/slot/track to insure that the mast stays in column with respect to side-to-side.

The following 'discussion' should also help in properly raising and 'shaping' the mainsail: http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=120970

hope this helps.

 

[RichH]

I am just having a tough time getting the sail taut since the metal cable is wrapped around the winch. Maybe try some tape or cloth around it first, I guess.

You may have the genoa halyard attached onto the stays'l, instead of the the other-way-around.
If the wire is touching the winch drum, you'll soon wear off the chrome coating of the winch, and then start to 'digging' into the bronze, etc. Try 'switching' the halyards and see if this doesnt correct the 'winch problem'.
Better to replace a wire-rope halyard with one of the newer high-tech / low-stretch polymers .... but, you may have to also change the masthead sheeve(s) when you do this.