Pretending for just a moment that you could get any rig on your favorite Hunter hull with equal effect and convenience, which kind of rig would you prefer, and why? Does the traditional, lower-aspect rigs of the 70's and early 80's turn your wheel? What about the higher-aspect, but backstayed, rigs of the Legend era? Or perhaps you're a B&R believer? State your preference (and your case) here... and don't forget to vote in this week's Quick Quiz, found toward the bottom of the HOW home page.
- Status
Something completely different...
I am reading Marchaj's book "Sail Performance", which examines (and tests, both in wind tunnels and on actual boats) several different types of rigs. A real surprise (especially to the author) is that the Crab Claw sail (a sort of dual-boom lateen, or triangular sail on it's side) is superior to the ubiquitous Bermuda rig on nearly every point of sail. A crab claw sail requires less fuss and bother to set up (a bonus for trailer sailors), works best on an unstayed mast (all sails do -- less drag), and does not require a tall mast (a boon for all sailors). Maybe Hunter could introduce an experimental model. A hundred years ago, square sails (sprit, gunter, lug, etc.) were the norm, and the Bermuda rig was the oddity. Today, you see very few sailboats that do not have a Bermuda rig. Who knows, a crab claw rig might change the face of sailing in the 21st century.
I am reading Marchaj's book "Sail Performance", which examines (and tests, both in wind tunnels and on actual boats) several different types of rigs. A real surprise (especially to the author) is that the Crab Claw sail (a sort of dual-boom lateen, or triangular sail on it's side) is superior to the ubiquitous Bermuda rig on nearly every point of sail. A crab claw sail requires less fuss and bother to set up (a bonus for trailer sailors), works best on an unstayed mast (all sails do -- less drag), and does not require a tall mast (a boon for all sailors). Maybe Hunter could introduce an experimental model. A hundred years ago, square sails (sprit, gunter, lug, etc.) were the norm, and the Bermuda rig was the oddity. Today, you see very few sailboats that do not have a Bermuda rig. Who knows, a crab claw rig might change the face of sailing in the 21st century.
Some biased likes and dislikes
Hunter has always favored large mains, which are a benefit for the cruising sailor, especially with large roaches and batten. Despite this, I am not sold on the B&R rig, because I like letting the main out on runs. It's not clear that the B&R gives all that much more roach that backstayed rigs. If you look at other modern cruising boats, many have almost as much roach, with a backstay, and do not suffer the drawbacks of severely swept back spreaders. There is no excuse for a B&R rig with in mast furling. If Hunter is going to offer the latter option, they should put it on a different rig. I'm all for rig experimentation: crab claws, stayless rigs, etc. The aerorig, supposedly, is faster on all points of sail than the marconi rig. I would cheer any production boat builder who picked THAT up and brought it to cruising sailors in an affordable fashion. You can't discuss rigs without also discussing hull design. The Hunter 460 has a 100% SA of 934 ft^2, giving it a conservative SA/D ratio of 16.6. Most modern cruising designs are moving to higher SA/D ratios. The J/46 has a 100% SA of 1021, but displaces 2600 pounds less than the Hunter 460, giving it a SA/D of 19. It's not enough to add sail; that just creates a tender boat that has to be reefed early. More sail area requires hulls that are more stable. For cruising, you want this to come from a low center of gravity, which means high ballast ratios, ballast pushed to the bottom of a deep sump, moderate freeboard, minimum superstructure, and interiors designed to keep weight low.
Hunter has always favored large mains, which are a benefit for the cruising sailor, especially with large roaches and batten. Despite this, I am not sold on the B&R rig, because I like letting the main out on runs. It's not clear that the B&R gives all that much more roach that backstayed rigs. If you look at other modern cruising boats, many have almost as much roach, with a backstay, and do not suffer the drawbacks of severely swept back spreaders. There is no excuse for a B&R rig with in mast furling. If Hunter is going to offer the latter option, they should put it on a different rig. I'm all for rig experimentation: crab claws, stayless rigs, etc. The aerorig, supposedly, is faster on all points of sail than the marconi rig. I would cheer any production boat builder who picked THAT up and brought it to cruising sailors in an affordable fashion. You can't discuss rigs without also discussing hull design. The Hunter 460 has a 100% SA of 934 ft^2, giving it a conservative SA/D ratio of 16.6. Most modern cruising designs are moving to higher SA/D ratios. The J/46 has a 100% SA of 1021, but displaces 2600 pounds less than the Hunter 460, giving it a SA/D of 19. It's not enough to add sail; that just creates a tender boat that has to be reefed early. More sail area requires hulls that are more stable. For cruising, you want this to come from a low center of gravity, which means high ballast ratios, ballast pushed to the bottom of a deep sump, moderate freeboard, minimum superstructure, and interiors designed to keep weight low.
fraction rig
Give me a fraction-rigged sloop any day. Masthead rigs are a thing of the past, as far as I'm concerned, as are 150% genoas. It only took me one glance up the stick to know that I wasn't interested in purchasing one of the new 460s. As far as the B&R rig is concerned, I acknowledge that it's an imperfect solution, but I'd much rather have a B&R, even with a furling main, than have a stick that requires running backstays to keep it from pumping. Runners are evil. The one thing that I'd prefer to have that I don't have on my 410 is an extendible sprit. The next boat is definately going to have to have one of those babies. I think it's a shame that only the racing boats are getting them currently; when are we cruisers going to get a shot at the fun toys?
Give me a fraction-rigged sloop any day. Masthead rigs are a thing of the past, as far as I'm concerned, as are 150% genoas. It only took me one glance up the stick to know that I wasn't interested in purchasing one of the new 460s. As far as the B&R rig is concerned, I acknowledge that it's an imperfect solution, but I'd much rather have a B&R, even with a furling main, than have a stick that requires running backstays to keep it from pumping. Runners are evil. The one thing that I'd prefer to have that I don't have on my 410 is an extendible sprit. The next boat is definately going to have to have one of those babies. I think it's a shame that only the racing boats are getting them currently; when are we cruisers going to get a shot at the fun toys?
Cool bulletin board feature!
When you write an ampersand, it is translated to "and": B&R. So, Phil, what do we do if we really want an ampersand?
When you write an ampersand, it is translated to "and": B&R. So, Phil, what do we do if we really want an ampersand?
Ampersands are strictly prohibited
Unfortunately, the db software reads an ampersand as a "value delimiter." Even the ascii equivalent. Meaning it will interpret an ampersand as the end of whatever you're writing, which, by definition, it isn't. The lesser of those evils is a translation table that converts it to "and." It ain't elegant, but at least we have no data loss.
Unfortunately, the db software reads an ampersand as a "value delimiter." Even the ascii equivalent. Meaning it will interpret an ampersand as the end of whatever you're writing, which, by definition, it isn't. The lesser of those evils is a translation table that converts it to "and." It ain't elegant, but at least we have no data loss.
&&?
I agree with Been There; the AeroRig is an interesting sail. Marchaj examines that sail as well in his book. A boat can carry a larger sail if the sail is lower (less heeling; center of effort is lower). I think that's another advantage of the crab claw. But the best boat is designed as a unit: hull and sail. Marchaj agrees there. And New Zealand's America's Cup boat is a very convincing proof, at least to me. Microsoft software (MS Access and the like) interpret one ampersand as a delimeter, but two consecutive ampersands are interpreted as meaning you really want to display the ampersand symbol, as in B&&R Rig.
I agree with Been There; the AeroRig is an interesting sail. Marchaj examines that sail as well in his book. A boat can carry a larger sail if the sail is lower (less heeling; center of effort is lower). I think that's another advantage of the crab claw. But the best boat is designed as a unit: hull and sail. Marchaj agrees there. And New Zealand's America's Cup boat is a very convincing proof, at least to me. Microsoft software (MS Access and the like) interpret one ampersand as a delimeter, but two consecutive ampersands are interpreted as meaning you really want to display the ampersand symbol, as in B&&R Rig.
Interesting
Yes, there was a tag missing in the reply template. Even with the ampersand there was no data missing on these posts, but I've had problems with that before. I hate it when they're not consistent (well, bugs are always consistent but I can't always find the set of consistent circumstances).
Yes, there was a tag missing in the reply template. Even with the ampersand there was no data missing on these posts, but I've had problems with that before. I hate it when they're not consistent (well, bugs are always consistent but I can't always find the set of consistent circumstances).
Definitely with backstays..
Owning and sailing both 'regular and B&R rigged boats, I would definitely choose the regular -with backstay- rig , hopefully next time on a Hunter hull.. Much has already been said on B&R rig , both as Hunter marketing materials and as various critics ,incl owneres . Trayin to shows the critics as old timers who refuse to go with modernisation and advance , is just not true and not a serious comment; othewise why is that that no other manufacturer of production or semi-customs boats hasn't embraced this rig , even as option? How come no other experienced and learned boat designers of worldwide production monohull manufacturers(among them probably Beneteau , Jeaneau , Catalina ,Bavaria , Dehler ,Doufour , Moody )and others has 'seen the light' and come up with this rig as best solution , altough they all pool and focus on basically same market for many years? And except few on the extreem racing circuit , one doesn't see them often on races ( one design , international racing)too. For me the main problem is a practical one ; the bad unefficient shape of the main on broad reaching and running ; such sailing might turn from just nuisance, constant playing the steering and early tear of sail in regular conditions, to fighting the rudder and possible dangerous broaching tendency in Beaufore 5 and up(and with related waves of 6-7 feet and up) , unless one don't use the mainsail at all ,unadvise on a boat with very small jib , which still might like-or need -both sails up to maintein both decent speed and directional stability. The general 'formal'advise by Hunter that one shouldn't run, but sail downwind tacks , sounds better than it reveal in reality. a. you cannot maintain decent -and efficient -mainsail shape already above 130 degrees ( your mainsail lies on the spreaders/stays right..?), not to mention 140 , 150 ,165 , still very much decent and favoured point of sail on many occasions ,beside the 170-180 degrees , which indeed might sometimes be slow or rolling. b.Ocasionally , one NEED to run with the (big)waves and (strong) wind, as the safest and eassier point of sail both on crew and boat , when some strong gust might broach the boat , unless you are able to fully ease the mainsail.. All these situations actually happened to me on some time or another ,either on coastal of international offshore sailing, with my highly menteined and heavilly equipped Hunter 29.5 . I don't say this rig doesn't have many other good points ,because it does . but the few problematic ones I mentioned , are -to my opinion- basic sailing qualities one cannot compromise much ,go around or ignore . I therefore would have for 'my chosen Hunter' hull, a slightly (15-18 degrees)angled back medium wide spreaders with adjustable backstay, 7/8-9/10 rig ,discontinuous rigging ,with baby stay ,and medium roach partly fully batten main on single-or dual- line reefing , and 120-125 percent medium cut jib on roller. Alternatelly , as 'second option' , I would choose the stayless ( Freedoms , etc., carbon fiber mast),or the newer 'development' the Aerorig. They go slightly less to winward , but are eassy and safe to oparate , without complicate stressfull components .(stays , bottlescrews,fittings , etc.) I think their higher price now -for a medium size boat- are a key factor in their limited marketing.
Owning and sailing both 'regular and B&R rigged boats, I would definitely choose the regular -with backstay- rig , hopefully next time on a Hunter hull.. Much has already been said on B&R rig , both as Hunter marketing materials and as various critics ,incl owneres . Trayin to shows the critics as old timers who refuse to go with modernisation and advance , is just not true and not a serious comment; othewise why is that that no other manufacturer of production or semi-customs boats hasn't embraced this rig , even as option? How come no other experienced and learned boat designers of worldwide production monohull manufacturers(among them probably Beneteau , Jeaneau , Catalina ,Bavaria , Dehler ,Doufour , Moody )and others has 'seen the light' and come up with this rig as best solution , altough they all pool and focus on basically same market for many years? And except few on the extreem racing circuit , one doesn't see them often on races ( one design , international racing)too. For me the main problem is a practical one ; the bad unefficient shape of the main on broad reaching and running ; such sailing might turn from just nuisance, constant playing the steering and early tear of sail in regular conditions, to fighting the rudder and possible dangerous broaching tendency in Beaufore 5 and up(and with related waves of 6-7 feet and up) , unless one don't use the mainsail at all ,unadvise on a boat with very small jib , which still might like-or need -both sails up to maintein both decent speed and directional stability. The general 'formal'advise by Hunter that one shouldn't run, but sail downwind tacks , sounds better than it reveal in reality. a. you cannot maintain decent -and efficient -mainsail shape already above 130 degrees ( your mainsail lies on the spreaders/stays right..?), not to mention 140 , 150 ,165 , still very much decent and favoured point of sail on many occasions ,beside the 170-180 degrees , which indeed might sometimes be slow or rolling. b.Ocasionally , one NEED to run with the (big)waves and (strong) wind, as the safest and eassier point of sail both on crew and boat , when some strong gust might broach the boat , unless you are able to fully ease the mainsail.. All these situations actually happened to me on some time or another ,either on coastal of international offshore sailing, with my highly menteined and heavilly equipped Hunter 29.5 . I don't say this rig doesn't have many other good points ,because it does . but the few problematic ones I mentioned , are -to my opinion- basic sailing qualities one cannot compromise much ,go around or ignore . I therefore would have for 'my chosen Hunter' hull, a slightly (15-18 degrees)angled back medium wide spreaders with adjustable backstay, 7/8-9/10 rig ,discontinuous rigging ,with baby stay ,and medium roach partly fully batten main on single-or dual- line reefing , and 120-125 percent medium cut jib on roller. Alternatelly , as 'second option' , I would choose the stayless ( Freedoms , etc., carbon fiber mast),or the newer 'development' the Aerorig. They go slightly less to winward , but are eassy and safe to oparate , without complicate stressfull components .(stays , bottlescrews,fittings , etc.) I think their higher price now -for a medium size boat- are a key factor in their limited marketing.
Parameters
Well, the question said "on any Hunter hull". My actual preference is the Freedom 45 Cat-Ketch stayless setup with no jib(s) and single-line double-reefing on each sail. But since I can't afford a Freedom, let's see what I can do with a Hunter. I'd prefer the low aspect rig (with backstays, no BandR) on the euro-style series with extendable keel or additional water ballast available. (I've been reading the HC50 brochure again.
) Even though this setup would not perform as well in light air (with more air aloft), it would provide more power in heavier seas. The rig is easier to tune and can be done without going aloft. Even with bosun's rig it's hard to pull one's self up the mast to do the upper inners on a BandR rig. I'd also like dual (separate) backstays, dual side-by-side forestays, each with a roller furling, a removable inner forestay for really severe weather, and a 4-6' retractable bow sprit for three different spinnaker shapes. Yeah, yeah...that's it....that's the ticket! OR If I really wanted a rig with stays, I could buy a Shannon; almost identical rig to the "wish list" above. Again, I can't afford a Shannon either. HOW big's the lottery this week?
Well, the question said "on any Hunter hull". My actual preference is the Freedom 45 Cat-Ketch stayless setup with no jib(s) and single-line double-reefing on each sail. But since I can't afford a Freedom, let's see what I can do with a Hunter. I'd prefer the low aspect rig (with backstays, no BandR) on the euro-style series with extendable keel or additional water ballast available. (I've been reading the HC50 brochure again.
) Even though this setup would not perform as well in light air (with more air aloft), it would provide more power in heavier seas. The rig is easier to tune and can be done without going aloft. Even with bosun's rig it's hard to pull one's self up the mast to do the upper inners on a BandR rig. I'd also like dual (separate) backstays, dual side-by-side forestays, each with a roller furling, a removable inner forestay for really severe weather, and a 4-6' retractable bow sprit for three different spinnaker shapes. Yeah, yeah...that's it....that's the ticket! OR If I really wanted a rig with stays, I could buy a Shannon; almost identical rig to the "wish list" above. Again, I can't afford a Shannon either. HOW big's the lottery this week?
Vision Owners Slighted..
..and former ones, too! Actually, I found the free standing rig to be a decent alternative, and given an easily driven hull and a reasonably light stick, I'd pick that choice in a second. Rick D.
..and former ones, too! Actually, I found the free standing rig to be a decent alternative, and given an easily driven hull and a reasonably light stick, I'd pick that choice in a second. Rick D.
Rig type
I think would like to have a Hunter rigged as a topsail schooner.. It would be one of a kind .....
I think would like to have a Hunter rigged as a topsail schooner.. It would be one of a kind .....
Arrrgh!
I meant to add that to the options! the question was suggested by Alex Pascu, a 29.5 owner. He suggested that as an option and i blew it. guess I'll have to add one more cup of coffee to the Moday morning routine! My apologies to all the Vision owners, especially. Past and present.
I meant to add that to the options! the question was suggested by Alex Pascu, a 29.5 owner. He suggested that as an option and i blew it. guess I'll have to add one more cup of coffee to the Moday morning routine! My apologies to all the Vision owners, especially. Past and present.
Cutter Rig Superior for Offshore Work
Our cutter rig, or rather our B&R rig with added inner forestay, provides the most versatile combination for offshore work. Excellent upwind capabilities remain unchanged while the downwind wing-on-wing jib option (plus double-reefed main) solves all problems with backswept spreaders. Also, the inner forestay provides redundancy in case of forestay failure and provides a variety of sail combinations for different wind conditions. Before getting too excited about free-standing masts for offshore cruising I would like to see statistics about the survivability of unstayed masts in a capsize or roll-over (particulary a lightweight, large cross section carbon fiber mast) compared to that of the inherently stable B&R rig. Flying Dutchman
Our cutter rig, or rather our B&R rig with added inner forestay, provides the most versatile combination for offshore work. Excellent upwind capabilities remain unchanged while the downwind wing-on-wing jib option (plus double-reefed main) solves all problems with backswept spreaders. Also, the inner forestay provides redundancy in case of forestay failure and provides a variety of sail combinations for different wind conditions. Before getting too excited about free-standing masts for offshore cruising I would like to see statistics about the survivability of unstayed masts in a capsize or roll-over (particulary a lightweight, large cross section carbon fiber mast) compared to that of the inherently stable B&R rig. Flying Dutchman
Free-standing spars are more reliable than stayed
While there is no thorough statistical analysis, all the evidence I have seen says that free-standing spars are MORE reliable than stayed spars. The reason is that nothing brings down a free-standing spar, except failure of the spar itself. With a stayed rig, the failure of any one of several dozen fittings, stays, or shrouds puts the spar at risk. This risk rises in a knock-down, especially if sail is up, because the stays then experience more load than would be possible from a wind gust with the boat upright. (For the latter, the righting moment of the boat is the limiting factor.) Carbon fiber is extremely strong. There were a couple of spar failures on the first Freedoms, when they had not yet figured out the building process. And a direct lightening strike typically destroys a carbon fiber spar, as it does a wood spar, but not an aluminum spar. A stayed carbon fiber spar is at similar risk to rigging failure as a stayed wood or aluminum spar, and for the same reason: the spar is designed with section and scantlings to work with its rig, not to work when the rig is partial and unbalanced. Except for construction errors early in their history, and external catastrophe such as lightening, I have heard of no failures of unstayed carbon fiber spars. In particular, I have heard of no failures due to wind and wave action, despite having found several incidents that normally would cause this. These include a larger cat ketch with unstayed carbon fiber spars in a storm in open ocean that did a complete end-over-end pitch pole. When it returned upright, its spars were undamaged. The drawback to most free-standing spars is that they have large, round sections. This hurts pointing ability. On a reach or run, they sail better than their stayed counterpart, because they do not suffer the parasitic drag of rigging and spreaders. Newer designs, such as rotating wing masts, perform better. (If Hunter REALLY wants to be innovative ..) One other thing: some riggers will bad talk unstayed spars. If you see this, keep one thing in mind. Riggers often have no professional experience with unstayed spars, because unstayed spars have no rigging, and their owners have little need for riggers.
While there is no thorough statistical analysis, all the evidence I have seen says that free-standing spars are MORE reliable than stayed spars. The reason is that nothing brings down a free-standing spar, except failure of the spar itself. With a stayed rig, the failure of any one of several dozen fittings, stays, or shrouds puts the spar at risk. This risk rises in a knock-down, especially if sail is up, because the stays then experience more load than would be possible from a wind gust with the boat upright. (For the latter, the righting moment of the boat is the limiting factor.) Carbon fiber is extremely strong. There were a couple of spar failures on the first Freedoms, when they had not yet figured out the building process. And a direct lightening strike typically destroys a carbon fiber spar, as it does a wood spar, but not an aluminum spar. A stayed carbon fiber spar is at similar risk to rigging failure as a stayed wood or aluminum spar, and for the same reason: the spar is designed with section and scantlings to work with its rig, not to work when the rig is partial and unbalanced. Except for construction errors early in their history, and external catastrophe such as lightening, I have heard of no failures of unstayed carbon fiber spars. In particular, I have heard of no failures due to wind and wave action, despite having found several incidents that normally would cause this. These include a larger cat ketch with unstayed carbon fiber spars in a storm in open ocean that did a complete end-over-end pitch pole. When it returned upright, its spars were undamaged. The drawback to most free-standing spars is that they have large, round sections. This hurts pointing ability. On a reach or run, they sail better than their stayed counterpart, because they do not suffer the parasitic drag of rigging and spreaders. Newer designs, such as rotating wing masts, perform better. (If Hunter REALLY wants to be innovative ..) One other thing: some riggers will bad talk unstayed spars. If you see this, keep one thing in mind. Riggers often have no professional experience with unstayed spars, because unstayed spars have no rigging, and their owners have little need for riggers.
Henk, Me Too
I'd also like to see some long-term statistics on freestanding spars. I bet if I was actually going to buy a Freedom, they'd show me everything I wanted to know. Been there also commented about the survival of a particular incident, but other than that one, I have never heard of a failure either. (But I don't get out much.) I realize the shape of the round spar is not as efficient in windward work, but I feel it's a trade-off I'm willing to live with. OTOH, I haven't spent weeks at sea with a stayless rig yet either, I'd like to get the experience on it first so I can make a more educated statement. Until then, I'll just keep on sailin' what I can afford.
I'd also like to see some long-term statistics on freestanding spars. I bet if I was actually going to buy a Freedom, they'd show me everything I wanted to know. Been there also commented about the survival of a particular incident, but other than that one, I have never heard of a failure either. (But I don't get out much.)
I realize the shape of the round spar is not as efficient in windward work, but I feel it's a trade-off I'm willing to live with. OTOH, I haven't spent weeks at sea with a stayless rig yet either, I'd like to get the experience on it first so I can make a more educated statement. Until then, I'll just keep on sailin' what I can afford.
wishbone
my neighbor three boats down has a freedom 44 ketch, and we've raced each other a few times just for grins. I love establishing a leeward hook on him, because close-hauled for him is a close reach for me. When I come up to close-hauled, he's luffing. One neat thing about the rig is that the tops of the carbon masts are so flexi that they automatically spill air in gusts, meaning that he's going to be the last guy to have to reef as the breeze freshens. That said, I think if I were going to go the unstayed route, I'd rather go with a wishbone rig such as those found on Wylecats. (sp?) There's a fellow with a Vision 36 in my yacht club, and I'm amazed at how slack he has to leave his forestay, lest he screw up his main. It's got this tiny little jib that accomplishes almost nothing. No thanks. No matter where I go the wind seems to be on my nose, which makes the ability to point too precious for me to squander it that way.
my neighbor three boats down has a freedom 44 ketch, and we've raced each other a few times just for grins. I love establishing a leeward hook on him, because close-hauled for him is a close reach for me. When I come up to close-hauled, he's luffing. One neat thing about the rig is that the tops of the carbon masts are so flexi that they automatically spill air in gusts, meaning that he's going to be the last guy to have to reef as the breeze freshens. That said, I think if I were going to go the unstayed route, I'd rather go with a wishbone rig such as those found on Wylecats. (sp?) There's a fellow with a Vision 36 in my yacht club, and I'm amazed at how slack he has to leave his forestay, lest he screw up his main. It's got this tiny little jib that accomplishes almost nothing. No thanks. No matter where I go the wind seems to be on my nose, which makes the ability to point too precious for me to squander it that way.
Final Reuslts
Final results for the Quick Quiz ending 3/19/2000: If you could get any rig on your favorite hull, which would you prefer? 40% B and R (106) 38% High aspect w/backstay (100) 13% Low aspect w/backstay (33) 9% No preference (25)
Final results for the Quick Quiz ending 3/19/2000: If you could get any rig on your favorite hull, which would you prefer? 40% B and R (106) 38% High aspect w/backstay (100) 13% Low aspect w/backstay (33) 9% No preference (25)
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