Restoration Project

[Deadhead]

I am considering taking on a project. It is a 1963 Cape Cod Marlin 23. This is a Nathaniel Herreshoff design. I found the boat on Craigslist. My initial e-mail to the seller was answered promptly. The fellow gave me this link:

http://www.sy-galicia.com/marlin/index.html

Clearly there is a lot of work to be done; however, I am not daunted assuming that the hull is structurally sound.

The guy is currently asking $6,000 for the boat. He justification is: [FONT=&quot]"Cape Cod Shipbuilding is listing a neglected Marlin at 12K, I am asking half that amount." [/FONT]The NADA site lists an average retail price of $2,200 - $2,400 for a 1971 Marlin 23. I forwarded him the NADA link. His response was that there is no crazing in the gelcoat, and that due to the rarity of the boat & its excellent handling characteristics he thinks his asking price is realistic.

My initial cost estimate of the project is about $20,000, dependent upon the purchase price. My question to the group is twofold. First, what would be a realistic offer? Second, is the $20k close to reasonable.

 

[sailingdog]

If he's not willing to budge on the price, don't bother.

A Cape Cod Marlin that is 45 years old and not in immaculate shape is not worth $6,000 IMHO. BTW, the photos on that link are basically useless... the forward cockpit bulkhead looks like it is made of particle board, but you can't see either in the three photos to be sure. It certainly is in rough shape at best.

If you go to see the boat, read the Boat Inspection Trip Tips thread I posted in the Stickies section. Read at least the first two posts.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

The hull has a pleasing sheer line and it looks like a seaworthy design. What is that large opening under the waterline on the stbd side just aft of the rudder??? It looks like a large window opening in the bottom of the hull!

It would certainly make an interesting restoration project for somebody that has a creative flair for revamping the entire layout. As it appears, the cabin is nothing more than a large enclosure for the head. The cockpit-mounted inboard engine also seems like a huge problem for restoring a useable cockpit space (not to mention that it looks like the engine is pretty badly neglected).

The budget of $20,000 could easily be doubled, I think, if you really go about upgrading everything on board, including winches, sails, deck hardware, furling, engine, rub rails, etc. If you are just getting to a utilitarian condition then I suppose the $20 K could be enough.

But why would you do it? Add $6,000 to the overall cost and do an exemplary job on restoration and you would have a boat that is worth what ... $6,000??? Who would buy it even if it was restored?

I think the current owner would be lucky to find somebody to take it off his hands even if he was giving it away.

 

[Ross]

You are calling this a restoration. To simply return a boat to its new as built configuration is a noble cause but not very worthwhile. I bought a 30 foot boat and rebuilt her basically from a bare hull. The designer, the previous owners and very few brokers would be able to identify her pedigree. I took a basic hull of a shape that suited me and built what I wanted . I will never recover my costs in a sale but some things have value that cannot be measured with money.
If this boat that you are coveting will please you enough that you will keep her and sail her and bequeath her to your heirs, then do it.

 

[ghost]

Take the $20K plus the $6K he is asking for the boat and you have $26K to go shopping with for a boat that is in good shape already and ready to go sailing in. In these times you should be able to get a great deal on something that is worth way more than the boat you're looking at.
I'd pass on the deal for sure.

 

[billleathen@aol.com]

Many of us sympathise with you because we have gone through the same process you are starting. When I decided to get my first sailboat with very limited funds, I considered a kit boat. Before I went that route I asked myself the question, Do I want to sail or do I want to work on building a boat? I chose to sail and used my limited funds to get a boat I could sail right away. Even with that, I still had plenty of projects to do on the boat. For $2,200 you may be able to get a boat that you can sail immediatly. Start with where and how you want to sail? Go to where you will be sailing and look at the boats on that body of water. There may be some that are already in usable condition and within your price range. Have fun.

 

[newly anonymous]

read all about it

this time last year someone published an article in Sailing mag about having restored another Cape Cod Marlin. you'll find the article at

http://gsosun1.gso.uri.edu/~brooke/Sailing_Article.pdf

Beautiful boat.

 

[H2OT]

Decisions Decisions

About ten years ago a crew member who raced with me got bitten with the sailing bug. He purchase a 30 foot sloop and began an extensive refit. One year after my friend purchased his boat, I purchased another boat and began upgrading it. Every year since then I made some sort of upgrade.

We each had a very different approach to our projects. I chose to sail while making the upgrades during the off season and he chose to do all his projects at once. Well, here we are, nine years later, and we are both still working on our boats. The difference being that I was sailing for the past nine seasons and he was wishing he was. To each his/her own.

In my opinion, your seller is looking for an unrealistic number. Twelve thousand for a boat in rougher condition than this one is a joke. Asking and selling prices can be worlds apart and will probably be the case here. Twenty thousand can go really quickly unless you provide an enormous amount of sweat equity. Good luck with your negotiations.

 

[David in Sandusky]

Keep looking

My take of the pictures at the website is that restoring this boat defeated the current owner. Your icon is a good, reasonably modern Beneteau. I bet you can find a number of Herreshoff designs for less total cost that you can enjoy from day one!

Like one of the previous posters, we have sailed our '77 h27 for 9 summers since we bought her, and put one to three thousand into her most winters. Our total investment is still less than you plan, and we may get one or two thousand more that we bought her for.

With her long overhangs, the Marlin is really a day sailor with a potty. I think you are talking about $26,000 _plus_ at least couple of years of your life to get her to excellent condition.

Rare as they are, I'll bet you could find the same design for a similar price that you could sail from day one, and work on fixing up.

But if you really want this one good luck to you!

 

[Deadhead]

Thanks for the Advice

I appreciate the responses. Point taken. I did foresee this as strictly a project to keep me busy. I liked the lines of the boat and felt that it would be fun to redo.

 

[kendall]

I think I'd find out if the trailer goes with the boat....
Then I'd find a figure I was comfortable with and make an offer. I'm not afraid to work on a boat, and I'm not afraid to pay someones asking price if it's something I want, but don't rip myself off.

Best advice then, is offer what you're comfortable with, if he doesn't come down keep looking. I've bought a lot of things, often at less than my original offer, and far less than asking price simply because I walked away when the offer was turned down.
If they sit on it a while they'll remember your offer unless it was totally absurd.

Really do like the look of those boats, there was a discussion a while ago on the plasticclassicforum.com, with a few pics. Those translucent panels are a major character point that makes those boats really unique.
think that engine is factory, but read that they came with a small engine mounted in the cockpit.
Would like to know what the 'window' is/was for.

Ken.

 

[Manny]

That hole in the rear looks suspiciously like an outboard well. The owner said there is no crazing in the gelcoat??? It looks like a lot of it has been sanded off Although the boat has extremely nice lines, I don't think I would give the guy more than $1500 - and that's if the trailer is included. I'm not sure what a refit would cost but depending on the level of restoration you could easily spend $20K. You can buy a nice boat that you can enjoy immediately for less than $6K, even $3K. Heck, recently there was a post about a free boat.

Manny

 

[CalebD]

I too love the lines of these Herschoff designed boats. If it is a project you want and the trailer is included then you should think about making a reasonable offer. I think the asking price is a tad on the high side considering the work needing to be done. The trailer looks pretty sturdy but the boat is not even ready to sail much less in tip top Bristol condition.
I know that there are some people out there who are collectors of antique classics that have a pedigree like this but as you can tell from most of the responses boats like this, in this condition do not appeal to the majority of boaters. To be in the club of people who admire these boats enough to want to restore them kind of makes one a bit of an eccentric (in the best possible way, of course). I say make them an offer of around 2/3 their asking price to see if they will budge. We got our 1967 Tartan 27' for $4K by negotiating (down from 6) but our boat had a working motor and was in ready to sail condition from the get go over 6 years ago (perhaps I am a bit eccentric too?).
It is your life and could be your project.
Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[Hermit Scott]

No crazing huh? Not much gel coat left to craze. Anyway the trailer looks nice. It's probably worth $1500 by itself. The escape hatch undeneath by the prop is a bit of a concern. Make sure the engine isn't running if you have to use it.
This boat is along the lines of the kind of boat I was looking at when I was in the market 4 months ago. I was looking at 27' boats 60's to 70's, I saw more than a few in that condintion asking price of $3000 to $4000. I think you'd be alright paying $4000 if the trailer is included. Especially if that is the exact model you have your heart set on.
That is going to take so much money and work that it would not be uncommon for someone to almost give you the boat, down here on the Texas coast anyway. The trailers are a little harder to come by.

And if you could, tell Cape Cod ship building good luck selling the neglected boat for 12k they will need it.

 

[RAD]

Hole in the hull?

Was that for the outboard motor I see there is an engine and a rusty one at that. does it run?
Thats a sailboat with great lines and like most have said 6K is way over priced in that condition but the trailer is worth at least 1500 with proper motor vechicle paper work.
a fair value would be 4500 IMHO and make sure you have all the paper work for the boat and trailer cause getting that stuff can be a real pain

 

[RAD]

After looking at the pictures again

Cause my curiosity got to me and I think the hole in the hull was for an outboard, look at the board placed over the opening in the cockpit to cover?and look at the mounting block added next to the tiller.

 

[Tim R.]

Call Cape Cod Shipbuilding. They are very nice. I restored a 1955 Rhodes 18 a few years back and I got great advice and parts from them. They are usually at the boat builders show here in Portland every year. Just for the record, I lucked upon the Rhodes 18(w/ trailor) for $1200. I did sell it for a profit.

 

[RAD]

a search on Yahoo came up with this

http://www.sailingtexas.com/scapecod23100.html

 

[letterman]

Re: After looking at the pictures again

The bug...mine was a Penguin....then a Mouette...I didn't get the Dickerson...39' FREE.
Look at Wooden Boats free section. Or the back pages of WB. There are good freebee's out there.
I agree with the price of $1500, but there is this good looking boat, but the same size, at the marina for $2300.
Are you looking for a classic to restore? Or just a great design that looks nautical, but is small, to fiddle away at the clock?

 

[Ross]

I looked at all of the pictures and IMHO you would be getting a bare hull with a mast (didn't see a boom), a few sails, a rusty gasoline engine and very questionable wood work. It would be a lovely day sailer and the cockpit is big enough to have a dance in. With that size cockpit I would want a couple of 4 inch drains.
I know how much work is involved in such a project and how much money you can plow into it. But if you have the tools, skills, a place to work and above all the self discipline to stay with the project for a couple of years and if you can get the boat for a more reasonable price, (it doesn't fit that trailer) then you could spend your money on worse things.